RuneQuest Spell effects

[Khedrac]

Going back to RuneQuest 3 (Avalon Hill) there was a question about how visible spell effects were.

Strangers in Prax when covering Arlaten's arrival (page 70) stated that the Sorcery he used had no visible effects (other than the actual result) unlike the flashy lights etc. of the spirit magic used by the locals.  Specifically:

Quote

The cloudy glow of a spirit magic spell lashes out of the crowd and arcs toward the man in white.

Conversely other products (I thought it was Shadows on the Borderland, but on re-reading it isn't the Tien shrine in there as I assumed) have had spirits attacking adventurers with spells, with the side comment that because there is nothing to see (the spirits are bound into something) it may take the party some time to work out what is happening and where the Disrupt spells are coming from.

Now, the discrepancy can be explained by the fact that the spirits casting the spells in the second case (I really wish I could remember the reference) are spirits, but I really dislike that as an explanation - it is too pat, too grasping to justify itself.

To my memory the original rules in RQ3 (and RQ2?) never specify what bystanders can see during spellcasting (indeed, most would expect it to be fairly obvious, but Arlaten spends over a minute preparing a spell while walking without anyone observing realising he is doing so).

So, is there a clear intent on what people see during spellcasting - spirit, divine or sorcery, and is this being clarified in the new upcoming RuneQuest?

Edited June 24, 2016 by Khedrac
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[Pentallion]

As far as I recall, it's always been that spirit magic was visible, sorcery invisible.  The casting, that is, not necessarily the effect.

[Joerg]

Any ongoing magic would produce a glow around the affected area. In daylight or in the presence of darkness (as opposed to absence of light), it might take a few points of magic to become visible. That's what's nasty about disruption - an instant spell, hardly any magic going on, unless you boost it to overcome defensive magic.

There might be a sorcerous art to make magic less visible to the naked eye, but I don't think that sorcery as a rule is invisible. Their god is, not their magic.

[Mankcam]

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Edited June 25, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

13 hours ago, Khedrac said:

So, is there a clear intent on what people see during spellcasting - spirit, divine or sorcery, and is this being clarified in the new upcoming RuneQuest?

 I guess the next edition of RQ may specifically describe this, so perhaps Jeff can clarify it; otherwise just go with what you think works for your interpretation of Glorantha.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Mankcam

[Khedrac]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Any ongoing magic would produce a glow around the affected area. In daylight or in the presence of darkness (as opposed to absence of light), it might take a few points of magic to become visible. That's what's nasty about disruption - an instant spell, hardly any magic going on, unless you boost it to overcome defensive magic.

There might be a sorcerous art to make magic less visible to the naked eye, but I don't think that sorcery as a rule is invisible. Their god is, not their magic.

Again, I refer you to Arlaten's arrival in Pavis - Arlaten has 20 points of defensive magic up with no visible sign other than things being thrown at him bouncing.  Also he thows a stupefaction 8+1 (multispell 8) with the completion of the casting (and the target's stopping their charges) being the only visbile effect.  That is far more magic points than any unboosted spirit magic spell will have in it with no glow. He then flies (cast by his familiar) with no visible sign of support - and a specific note that flying without beneit of Wind or Light is amazing to the onlookers.  Strangers in Prax was written using the basic RQ3 Sorcery rules so no special arts yet invented.

That said, your comment about glowing does touch faint memories, but I suppose it must be spirit (and divine) only.

Thank-you all for you responses.  This isn't hard to make a home decision on, but it is a nuisance when one has two otherwise good adventures that have bits that hang on different interpretations of the same rules...

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, Khedrac said:

Again, I refer you to Arlaten's arrival in Pavis - Arlaten has 20 points of defensive magic up with no visible sign other than things being thrown at him bouncing.  Also he thows a stupefaction 8+1 (multispell 8) with the completion of the casting (and the target's stopping their charges) being the only visbile effect.  That is far more magic points than any unboosted spirit magic spell will have in it with no glow. He then flies (cast by his familiar) with no visible sign of support - and a specific note that flying without beneit of Wind or Light is amazing to the onlookers.  Strangers in Prax was written using the basic RQ3 Sorcery rules so no special arts yet invented.

The entire rulesy bit on Arlaten's RQ3 sorcery was Mike Dawson's "I can do it regardless" attempt to bring RQ3 sorcery and Malkioni sorcery together. Basically, this is one man's interpretation of how the rules would play published without a rules audit, let alone a Glorantha audit. Now Mike has shown he can write beautifully Gloranthan scenarios and background, but the sorcery presented for Arlaten isn't one of those.

[Khedrac]

Which goes back nicely to my original problem - we really need this clarified to stop scenario writers putting their own spin on things and messing up something that would otherwise be good to use for one's own campaign.

That said - what do you mean by "bring RQ3 sorcery and Malkioni sorcery together"?  At this point the only sorcery already published (beyond the rulebook) was that in Griffin Island (which to those of us playing RQ at Liverpool University was a lovely example of how not to do it) and some troll sorcery (and possibly Daughters of Darkness) - at least that is all I am aware of.  This surely means that RQ3 sorcery was Malkioni sorcery - Malkioni sorcery did not exist in RQ2, as RQ2 sorcery was RQ3 Lunar magic (the old twist spirit spells into new shapes variety).  I'm not trying to say "you're wrong" here (sorry if it reads like that) - I am trying to say "I don't understand and here's why", and I would genuinely like to know more.

I would also really like it if the new version gives us a definitive statement so this sort of issue never arises again.

Footnote: one university-wide houserule implemented at Liverpool for sorcery was to limit Damage Boost to the maximum damage that a weapon could do anyway, i.e. 9 for a broadsword (D8+1).  Given in the introduction of Intellect spirits and the ability to make Intensity boosting items, sorcery was too easy to take from "incredibly unbalanced and powerful" at rune levels to "insanely unbalanced and overpowered" - consider a sword with damage boost 20 cast on it, one hit ends the fight; next consider a pin with damage boost 9 being manipulated form a distance - it is more powerful than a sword with damage boost 9 (possibly even than the sword with 20) as it won't be seen coming.  This limitation enabled sorcerors to be played much more normally.

[Joerg]

51 minutes ago, Khedrac said:

That said - what do you mean by "bring RQ3 sorcery and Malkioni sorcery together"?  At this point the only sorcery already published (beyond the rulebook) was that in Griffin Island (which to those of us playing RQ at Liverpool University was a lovely example of how not to do it) and some troll sorcery (and possibly Daughters of Darkness) - at least that is all I am aware of.  This surely means that RQ3 sorcery was Malkioni sorcery - Malkioni sorcery did not exist in RQ2, as RQ2 sorcery was RQ3 Lunar magic (the old twist spirit spells into new shapes variety).  I'm not trying to say "you're wrong" here (sorry if it reads like that) - I am trying to say "I don't understand and here's why", and I would genuinely like to know more.

RQ3 sorcery was Alternate Earth sorcery, really - and it did see some adaptation and use for Land of Ninja. The basic concept - each spell its own skill, and manipulation skills as capping skills much like riding was for mounted combat - applied to any user of sorcery.

Gods of Glorantha did a very very feeble attempt to introduce Malkioni- and Mostali-specific spells, which I haven't seen anybody use anywhere.

The role of wizards in Malkioni society was severely under-defined. The use of sorcery by non-specialists among the Malkioni (e.g. craft guilds, Hrestoli knights) with just a few spells and intensity worked fine, even though the spell effects were a bit sucky. (Especially the lottery "Damage Resistance" which worked the least when needed the most, and required lots of die rolling.)

Generic sorcery spells would be used by Malkioni, too, so it was possible to play characters that had sorcery. Playing a full adept sorcerer required ridiculous access to enchantments and captured spirits - just like Rune Level, practically not reachable during play. Playing an apprentice sorcerer that was released from apprenticehood could be fun, but wasn't quite what the rules suggested. (A bit like a rune priest unfettered by cultic requirements...)

We knew the great things Zzabur, the sorcerer supreme, or the somewhat lesser stature Delecti did. Nothing among the sorcery spells as delivered even hinted at this.

The Familiar requirement for adept sorcerers created more of a zoo than the Griffin Mountain spirit allies, added to this were the undispensable bound spirits. In effect, the sorcerer had to become of a master of the spirit world on par with a shaman (through summoning and dominating) in order to get a chance to do something practical. Once operable, the sorcerer was basically a gadgeteer making himself (and optimally his familiar as well) a magically blank sheet, storing every bit of his magic in enchantments or intellect spirits. A smartphone user V0.1, unable to recall any connection, but able to look it up on his device list.

Basically, the game mechanics were at odds with the job description of Gloranthan sorcerers.

Tapping was made into an attack spell rather than a draining ritual to draw energy from the environment. (Taking MP from a bound POW spirit is Tapping by another name, with higher regeneration rates.)

51 minutes ago, Khedrac said:

I would also really like it if the new version gives us a definitive statement so this sort of issue never arises again.

I expect to see sorcery from books (grimoires), with cultural context, a couple of "cult skills" requiring spell ability in community-oriented magic rather than only adventuring-oriented magic, and rather limited use of permanently enslaved otherworld critters. I expect a decent limiting system with a decent, aquirable through game experience work-around towards heroic ability (and that doesn't mean skills in the 200% range in order to cast intensity 20 spells).

I remember the impact of Ars Magica's magic system and the (then resultless) search for the fleeting concept of Runic Sorcery to play with the runic types, translating MP costs etc.

The attempts in the aborted RQ4-AiG resulted in something like RQ3 sorcery adapted for use with Glorantha. Far from perfect, but sort of playable. Not necessarily what I expect from the CRG(4/7)G treatment of sorcery.

So, I expect a fresh approach keeping the "skill and manipulation" idea, stirring in Gloranthan runes and cultural background. More than 30 years of roleplaying developments should help create something that is not a POW-sink or a skill requirement multiplication nightmare. Or an exercise in administration of durations...

 

 

[Atgxtg]

I think there was a bit more sorcery stuff in the Glorantha boxed set.

[MOB]

On 6/25/2016 at 5:11 PM, Joerg said:

Now Mike has shown he can write beautifully Gloranthan scenarios and background, but the sorcery presented for Arlaten isn't one of those.

Mike wrote two of what I consider the best-ever Gloranthan scenarios of all time - 'Gaumata's Vision' (Shadows on the Borderlands), set on the fringes of Sun County, and 'Embarrassment of Riches', set in Jonatela.  And he wrote one of my least favourite, which is 'Artlatan's Tower' (in Strangers in Prax)

Edited June 27, 2016 by MOB

[styopa]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

...this is one man's interpretation of how the rules would play published without a rules audit, let alone a Glorantha audit. ...

As is yours, no?

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

RQ3 sorcery was Alternate Earth sorcery, really - and it did see some adaptation and use for Land of Ninja. The basic concept - each spell its own skill, and manipulation skills as capping skills much like riding was for mounted combat - applied to any user of sorcery.

Gods of Glorantha did a very very feeble attempt to introduce Malkioni- and Mostali-specific spells, which I haven't seen anybody use anywhere.

The role of wizards in Malkioni society was severely under-defined. The use of sorcery by non-specialists among the Malkioni (e.g. craft guilds, Hrestoli knights) with just a few spells and intensity worked fine, even though the spell effects were a bit sucky. (Especially the lottery "Damage Resistance" which worked the least when needed the most, and required lots of die rolling.)

...

So, I expect a fresh approach keeping the "skill and manipulation" idea, stirring in Gloranthan runes and cultural background. More than 30 years of roleplaying developments should help create something that is not a POW-sink or a skill requirement multiplication nightmare. Or an exercise in administration of durations...

Elder Secrets had the Mostali sorcery, I believe?

Unfortunately, the new rule set will be based exclusively in Dragon Pass, meaning Sorcery will likely be covered only in perfunctory fashion.  I believe it's being included at all only because Jeff has mentioned that Lhankor Mhy use sorcery which was a pretty big surprise to me.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, styopa said:

As is yours, no?

Sure. I am known to be quite opinionated, too.

And I used to be involved in Gloranthan fact checking, at times against my own opinion, for Issaries.

1 minute ago, styopa said:

Elder Secrets had the Mostali sorcery, I believe?

ES had the POW-sink "stabilize X" spells, which made the caster burn permanent POW for a rather short, temporary effect. Nothing you would see used by a player character, or by a player character sidekick.

1 minute ago, styopa said:

Unfortunately, the new rule set will be based exclusively in Dragon Pass, meaning Sorcery will likely be covered only in perfunctory fashion.

HeroQuest Glorantha has the same focus, and has quite a bit sorcery.

1 minute ago, styopa said:

I believe it's being included at all only because Jeff has mentioned that Lhankor Mhy use sorcery which was a pretty big surprise to me.

HeroQuest Glorantha features the Lhankor Mhy sage follower of Samastina, who already has sorcerous grimoires.

And already Storm Tribe had at least a Lhankor Mhy subcult providing sorcery to the Heortlings.

[pachristian]

All I can say is I hope they really put some thought into sorcery: The issue is not writers coming up with variations, the issue is badly-throught out systems which players, and writers then exploit. No matter how perfunctory sorcery is in the Dragon Pass area, the rules need to be balanced against everything else. 

"Lhankor Mhy use sorcery"? And somebody was just complaining about Mike Dawson's treatment of sorcery in Strangers in Prax? 

[Khedrac]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

RQ3 sorcery was Alternate Earth sorcery, really - and it did see some adaptation and use for Land of Ninja. The basic concept - each spell its own skill, and manipulation skills as capping skills much like riding was for mounted combat - applied to any user of sorcery.

Ah yes, Land of Ninja - I only have the Games Workshop version and never read it that closely, I forgot some sorcery was in there.

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Gods of Glorantha did a very very feeble attempt to introduce Malkioni- and Mostali-specific spells, which I haven't seen anybody use anywhere.

In that it had the signature spells for each college of Malkioni sorcery and each Mostali 'caste' - yes, I never saw them get used much either (see below).

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

The role of wizards in Malkioni society was severely under-defined. The use of sorcery by non-specialists among the Malkioni (e.g. craft guilds, Hrestoli knights) with just a few spells and intensity worked fine, even though the spell effects were a bit sucky. (Especially the lottery "Damage Resistance" which worked the least when needed the most, and required lots of die rolling.)

Now that I totally agree with - how Malioni society really worked was never made clear.

10 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I think there was a bit more sorcery stuff in the Glorantha boxed set.

Not that I recall - I have a copy downstairs though so can check if anyone has more specifics.

4 hours ago, styopa said:

Elder Secrets had the Mostali sorcery, I believe?

I don't recall Elder Secrets having any more than Gods of Glorantha (same comment about downstairs, in one version or another I have every official RQ3 product and most RQ2)

4 hours ago, styopa said:

Unfortunately, the new rule set will be based exclusively in Dragon Pass, meaning Sorcery will likely be covered only in perfunctory fashion.  I believe it's being included at all only because Jeff has mentioned that Lhankor Mhy use sorcery which was a pretty big surprise to me.

Yes - this one was a shocker seeing as how clearly it was laid out that virtually all cults hate sorcery (main non-troll exception Chalana Arroy).  That said, if you are going to give it to any cult that is probably the one I would pick.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

ES had the POW-sink "stabilize X" spells, which made the caster burn permanent POW for a rather short, temporary effect. Nothing you would see used by a player character, or by a player character sidekick.

With one exception - Stabilize Magic Point Matrix - with enough duration behind it having your magic point matricies regentate like power spirits could be really useful (that said, magic point matricies were not something I would ever expect anyone to make, even with the errata applied (1d10 per point not 1) - power spirit matricies make so much more sense.

I did have an npc sorceror in a non-Glorantha game have this cast on her tower (the tower was a several thousand point matrix - somehow I don't think she was the one who cast the stabilize).

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

HeroQuest Glorantha has the same focus, and has quite a bit sorcery.

HeroQuest Glorantha features the Lhankor Mhy sage follower of Samastina, who already has sorcerous grimoires.

And already Storm Tribe had at least a Lhankor Mhy subcult providing sorcery to the Heortlings.

Well I took one look at the first verison of Hero Wars (or whatever it was called) and gave up buying new products...

4 hours ago, pachristian said:

All I can say is I hope they really put some thought into sorcery: The issue is not writers coming up with variations, the issue is badly-throught out systems which players, and writers then exploit. No matter how perfunctory sorcery is in the Dragon Pass area, the rules need to be balanced against everything else.

Me too.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Khedrac
spelling

[Noita]

Sartar Kingdom of heroes has a good write up about the why and how followers of Lhankor Mhy use sorcery.

Off to bed but will return tomorrow with the info.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Iskallor