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Borderlands and Beyond: You want me to work for a Lunar?


Corvantir

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Although I love knowing the timeline and what happens in Dragon Pas & Prax during the first decade of the Hero Wars, I personally think sandboxing settings may be better set in the decade prior to Argrath's ascendancy, so 1610 - 1620. Lots of scope for low level treasure looting, skirting the authorities and such, a bit more like a Fritz Leiber novel, rather than something from the pages of The Iliad. It sounds like published CRQ4 campaigns will have a more epic flavour, so I can see why the nominal period will be set a few years later with some of the major battles able to be used as backdrops. 

Edited by Mankcam
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Since the 70's, the setting has been the decade prior to Argrath's ascendancy.  The boardgame promised the Hero Wars.  It's time we moved on from the lead up to the Hero Wars and dug into the actual war itself.  I'm very excited with where Runequest is going.

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16 hours ago, Corvantir said:

The year of the Borderlands and Beyond adventures is the main reason why I am interested in this campaign. I think it would be easier to introduce my players to Glorantha with the Colymar campaign, because it is designed for that. But starting earlier would be a good way to introduce the setting without spoiling too many things. If I run Borderlands and Beyond after the Colymar campaign, the players will know a lot of things that have not yet happen. It would not be dramatic neither, but I think they and I will appreciate the surprises...   ;)

Have a look at Prax-Pavis Timeline and Amended Pavis-Prax Timeline on my website for some idea on how the various published scenarios link together, with actual dates, if provided. It gives a framework to a Pavis/Praxian campaign.

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5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Have a look at Prax-Pavis Timeline and Amended Pavis-Prax Timeline on my website for some idea on how the various published scenarios link together, with actual dates, if provided. It gives a framework to a Pavis/Praxian campaign.

Thank you very much...   ;)

What I would like to do is to start early in 1615 and then play through the years until we reach the Hero Wars. I think the Hero Wars will be far richer if the players know the setting better. Another important advantage with Borderlands and Beyond is that you start rather small and can build brick by brick from there on.

Moreover, I find HeroQuest: Glorantha ideal for running Borderland adventures, it supports every kind of games equally well... in my opinion, of course

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1 hour ago, Corvantir said:

What I would like to do is to start early in 1615 and then play through the years until we reach the Hero Wars. I think the Hero Wars will be far richer if the players know the setting better. Another important advantage with Borderlands and Beyond is that you start rather small and can build brick by brick from there on.

Funnily enough, that's exactly what we are doing in our current campaign. We started off as a street gang in Pavis, explored Prax and gained copper limbs from an idol, went to become convict-militia in Sun County, became River Voices, did some of the scenarios from Borderlands and the RQ3 Pavis/Prax supplements, liberated the Earth temple in Snake Pipe Hollow, resurrected Grandfather Newt, righted the wrongs of the River Voices, went into the Eternal Battle, resurrected Yamsur the Splendid, Orani and a son of Genert, pulled Storm Bull cultists from the Eternal Battle, sent a Death cradle down the Zola Fel, defended pavis from a Chaos attack by raising the Dead of Pavis to fight, restored the Giants' fertility, rescued a Life Nymph from a Short World prison, sent a Cradle down Zola Fel and escorted it to Magasta's Pool, went down Magasta's Pool and met the Giants there, resurrected Tada, Pavis and finally Genert, killed the Crimson Bat by turning it inside out and pulling its soul from the Chaos Void at its heart, rescued a True Dragon from the remains of the Crimson Bat, brought back Tarkalor and Sartar, organised the Boat raising and performed the Sky Boat HeroQuest to restore the Boat Planet, instigated the Dragonrise and broke the Lunar power in the region, drove the Lunars out of Pavis, then Prax, then the Holy Country, then Sartar, made Harrek Duke of the Upland Marsh, one PC did the Pharaoh's HeroQuest and reunited the Holy Country, they brought back the Only Old One and are now HeroQuesting to unite the world's waters.

So, they went from startup PCs to Heroes in a campaign that has lasted 10 years so far and did it in the same way as you suggested, starting small and building brick by brick.

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It depends how much Epic I want in my games. It is certainly appealing to set the game against the majesty and chaos of The Hero Wars.

However sometimes I just want no epic backdrops, just a sandbox setting where the characters are wearing piece meal armour, roustabouts scrambling around for every piece of loot they can find, perhaps also settling kin grudges and such, possibly exploring ancient ruins of a bygone age.

If I had the time I would love to run the kind of game Simon has described, starting off around 1610 - 1615 for a sandbox, then slowly progressing into the more pivotal events a decade later with the fall of Whitewall followed by the liberation of Sartar. By that time the characters would be veterans who can take their place amongst the major players of The Hero Wars.

However I'll never get the time for it these days. I'm glad that it sounds like CRQ4 will have options for varied character experience levels to start play with.

Edited by Mankcam
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16 hours ago, soltakss said:

Funnily enough, that's exactly what we are doing in our current campaign. We started off as a street gang in Pavis, explored Prax and gained copper limbs from an idol, went to become...

So, they went from startup PCs to Heroes in a campaign that has lasted 10 years so far and did it in the same way as you suggested, starting small and building brick by brick.

Thank you for the summary, perhaps will I be able to tell such an account of our adventures in a few years.   ;)

About common ennemies, I don't know who they can have in common but the idea is worth thinking about it.

Edited by Corvantir
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Corvantir:

Some suggestions/solutions for your concerns about Orlanthi or Praxians working for Lunars could be:

Graft the Borderlands campaign onto a slightly different setting. Perhaps Lord Davis of Garhound is seeking mercenaries to patrol his lands and the lands beyond. You could have the patron be a powerful Pavite lord based in Old Fort or Major or set it south of Raus' lands and have the players serving a river lord. Perhaps Lord Solanthos Ironspike is looking for non-Yelmalio outsiders to man a hazia interdiction fort located in the bogs north or south of Sun County but not on Sun County lands. With a little tweaking and creativity you can move the campaign away from Raus Fort and to a new locale.

Not all Orlanthi are fanatic Orlanthi. Perhaps these Orlanthi refugees were driven from their lands by mortal threats from traditional Orlanthi for not embracing violent resistance or maybe they are more cosmopolitan and citified Orlanthi from the Heortlands or Notchet and lack the powerful prejudices of traditional Sartarian Orlanthi. Perhaps the Orlanthi are Brolian or Talastari Orlanthi and are more accustomed to the idea of serving a Carmanian noble. Likewise, Praxian Sable Riders or Pavic Zebra Folk would not be so hostile to a Carmanian lord. Praxian tribal exiles would be more likely to accept the protection of Duke Raus in order to survive despite anti-lunar convictions.

Finally, even if the Orlanthi are hardcore traditionalists with big chips on their shoulders, it can be made clear to them that Raus does not share the prejudices and arrogance of the Pavis Lunars nor the puritanical and totalitarian predilections of the Sun County Yelmalio and therefore he is the player character's best chance for success and patronage/protection in the VERY HOSTILE River of Cradles and Praxian chaparral.

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

 

Edited by Evilroddy
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On 3 Jul 2016 at 3:16 AM, Mankcam said:

If I had the time I would love to run the kind of game Simon has described, starting off around 1610 - 1615 for a sandbox, then slowly progressing into the more pivotal events a decade later.

 

This is my current game in a nutshell. Starting a year after Moonbroth. High detail the first year and then once every few years. 

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One thing I notice about Glorantha as written, vs Glorantha as most of the gamers I know play it, is the moral ambiguity. Argrath is, among other things, a pirate, who sells out the City of Wonders to Harrek for Harrek's assistance. And he's the good guy? Harrek is described as a "save half-mad killing demigod". In "King of Dragon Pass" you encounter clan leaders who are semi-atheist, and clan leaders who will violate Orlanthi law over a grudge. At the battle of Moonbroth, the Praxians recruited a unit of Broo to fight against the Lunars - why? To keep those chaos-lovers out!

My point is that in the game we tend push to absolutes: "A good Orlanthi would never work for a Lunar!" Well, I think a good Orlanthi will work where he can get a job. It's amazing how many moral crises are resolved by a steady paycheck. 

Note that in the Tarsh, Orlanthi, Lunars, and Solar cultists live side by side with minimal friction (I picture them being like the polarized but generally peaceful United States, today). 

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14 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

Corvantir:

Some suggestions/solutions for your concerns about Orlanthi or Praxians working for Lunars could be:

Graft the Borderlands campaign onto a slightly different setting. Perhaps Lord Davis of Garhound is seeking mercenaries to patrol his lands and the lands beyond. You could have the patron be a powerful Pavite lord based in Old Fort or Major or set it south of Raus' lands and have the players serving a river lord. Perhaps Lord Solanthos Ironspike is looking for non-Yelmalio outsiders to man a hazia interdiction fort located in the bogs north or south of Sun County but not on Sun County lands. With a little tweaking and creativity you can move the campaign away from Raus Fort and to a new locale.

Not all Orlanthi are fanatic Orlanthi. Perhaps these Orlanthi refugees were driven from their lands by mortal threats from traditional Orlanthi for not embracing violent resistance or maybe they are more cosmopolitan and citified Orlanthi from the Heortlands or Notchet and lack the powerful prejudices of traditional Sartarian Orlanthi. Perhaps the Orlanthi are Brolian or Talastari Orlanthi and are more accustomed to the idea of serving a Carmanian noble. Likewise, Praxian Sable Riders or Pavic Zebra Folk would not be so hostile to a Carmanian lord. Praxian tribal exiles would be more likely to accept the protection of Duke Raus in order to survive despite anti-lunar convictions.

Finally, even if the Orlanthi are hardcore traditionalists with big chips on their shoulders, it can be made clear to them that Raus does not share the prejudices and arrogance of the Pavis Lunars nor the puritanical and totalitarian predilections of the Sun County Yelmalio and therefore he is the player character's best chance for success and patronage/protection in the VERY HOSTILE River of Cradles and Praxian chaparral.

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

Thank you for these ideas.

Transplanting the setting a few miles away and/or with another lord should not be that hard, this is something I did not think about.

And Pachristian and you are right, things are more often than not a shade of grey rather than black or white. But I don't know yet what kind of characters the players will be interested in so all the the answers posted so far give me things to reply to the future questions of my players about Duke Raus being and his Lunar origin.

And pachristian you are right again, money can do miracles when morality gets on the way... as we can see it every day. But this is not really the kind of things I want to further in my games when it comes to the players. I prefer moral ambiguity to be on the NPC's side. This is not something I am afraid of or that I don't want at my table though, just something I don't really want to promote on the players' side...

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On 5 July 2016 at 3:27 AM, Iskallor said:

This is my current game in a nutshell. Starting a year after Moonbroth. High detail the first year and then once every few years. 

I think the Skill Check progression may need to be slowed in such a campaign, otherwise the characters would peak too early and it end up being a grind until the Hero Wars kicks in.

I would probably use a system where you determine what skills you used the most over the past year (maybe a number of rolls equal to half POW?),  and make the Skill Checks during Sacred Time, to mark the passing of the year.

The characters could receive bonuses to their Skill Check rolls for any skills that they are constantly paying in-game training costs, to keep the training economy valuable.

Additionally I'ld probably allow Critical Rolls to grant Skill Checks at the end of any session they occur in, for novelty sake.

I would love to run a campaign spanning such a time frame. Kind of like Pendragon in Glorantha.

 

Edited by Mankcam

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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Given that Raus is exiled, it is essentially a matter up to GM discretion, or tabletop decision (depending on the style at hand) whether the new stead is even "Lunar" in character!

Raus may be harboring the secret intention of founding a new dynasty with ZERO allegiance / affiliation with the Lunars.  Or he might be willing to imply this, in order to get hardline anti-lunars to take his pay for a year or two... or ten...

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11 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I think the Skill Check progression may need to be slowed in such a campaign, otherwise the characters would peak too early and it end up being a grind until the Hero Wars kicks in.

I would probably use a system where you determine what skills you used the most over the past year (maybe a number of rolls equal to half POW?),  and make the Skill Checks during Sacred Time, to mark the passing of the year.

The characters could receive bonuses to their Skill Rolls for any skills that they are constantly paying in-game training costs, to keep the training economy valuable.

We moved away from skill checks to Hero Point spends, so you have a limited pool of Hero points that you could spend to try and increase a skill. It works well to slow down the progression and allows players to lead their PCs in certain directions.

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I don't really think this is a problem unless we make it one. Take the 'Borderlands and Beyond' case here --

On the patron side, it seems to me that Duke Raus is an Imperial, but is not a Lunar -- that is, he comes from the ruling/elite class of the highly multi-ethnic and multi-pantheonic Empire, but isn't obviously an adherent of the Lunar religious tradition. (If your players aren't willing to deal with such a basic distinction, then I tend to think all your "Lunars" will end up just as being orcs in Gloranthan drag.)

On the PC side, it seems to me that you're assuming that players be playing Sartarites. (Including Sartar-exiles, Sartar-emigrants, and Orlanthi-linked religious cultures.) Why on earth??? Is it not possible, just to stipulate, while setting up the campaign and doing character-building, rather to say that the normal and basic starting point of the PCs is that of an Imperial colonist/exile/functionary, or Sable Rider, or (to be exotic) neutrally mercenary groups like morokanths and so forth? The great thing about most all classic Gloranthan adventure packs is you can quite easily turn them upside down and/or sideways and make them entirely different gaming experiences, just by inverting the implied values and identities.

 

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 I notice ONE real good  reason for an Orlanthi to work for Duke Raus  which has not come up.

 His one and only heir is a rather pretty young lady who is lonely. And if a Orlanthi Warrior uses Poetry instead of a sword to conquer certain Lunars , Orlanth Im sure will give them a thumbs up and not send in the spirit of reprisal..

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5 hours ago, TRose said:

 I notice ONE real good  reason for an Orlanthi to work for Duke Raus  which has not come up.

 His one and only heir is a rather pretty young lady who is lonely. And if a Orlanthi Warrior uses Poetry instead of a sword to conquer certain Lunars , Orlanth Im sure will give them a thumbs up and not send in the spirit of reprisal..

Haven't thought about this one, it's excellent. If I remember well, the Borderlands and Beyond campaign already suggests a love affair with Duke Raus' daughter but I didn't imagine it could happen before. You have opened my mind, thanks...

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12 hours ago, Kim said:

I don't really think this is a problem unless we make it one. Take the 'Borderlands and Beyond' case here --

On the patron side, it seems to me that Duke Raus is an Imperial, but is not a Lunar -- that is, he comes from the ruling/elite class of the highly multi-ethnic and multi-pantheonic Empire, but isn't obviously an adherent of the Lunar religious tradition. (If your players aren't willing to deal with such a basic distinction, then I tend to think all your "Lunars" will end up just as being orcs in Gloranthan drag.)

On the PC side, it seems to me that you're assuming that players be playing Sartarites. (Including Sartar-exiles, Sartar-emigrants, and Orlanthi-linked religious cultures.) Why on earth??? Is it not possible, just to stipulate, while setting up the campaign and doing character-building, rather to say that the normal and basic starting point of the PCs is that of an Imperial colonist/exile/functionary, or Sable Rider, or (to be exotic) neutrally mercenary groups like morokanths and so forth? The great thing about most all classic Gloranthan adventure packs is you can quite easily turn them upside down and/or sideways and make them entirely different gaming experiences, just by inverting the implied values and identities.

 

You are right but part of the reason why I assume most of the players will be Sartarite exiles is that I want to use the clan creation rules of Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes and Pavis: Gateway to Adventure. I consider them to be a great tool to present Glorantha to the players as it conveys a lot of information about the setting in a fun way.

My players are new to the setting, so it can help a lot to get the ball rolling. And being strangers in a strange land, it explains why they don't know the area and thus their lack of knowledge about this part of the setting.   ;)

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21 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

You are right but part of the reason why I assume most of the players will be Sartarite exiles is that I want to use the clan creation rules of Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes and Pavis: Gateway to Adventure. I consider them to be a great tool to present Glorantha to the players as it conveys a lot of information about the setting in a fun way.

My players are new to the setting, so it can help a lot to get the ball rolling. And being strangers in a strange land, it explains why they don't know the area and thus their lack of knowledge about this part of the setting.   ;)

I can definitely see and agree with your point of view, here. I do think there are others; for example, the 'deracinated foreigners off the boat in a foreign, foreign land' approach (as taken from Tekumel). As far as being new to the setting, I don't see any difference or advantage between your plan and my quibble. When we are easing newbies into the world, I would argue that it's easier to introduce them to it as monads, cut off from their social network, but given an interesting political situation -- from which they can explore history and culture around them, as they wish. In my experience, running fresh players through any kind of clan/family/background pre-game results in them never leaving it; they end up playing in that pre-game forever.

Not to knock clan-generation kinds of systems per se; I think they're great fun and well interesting.I just think that they're much better geared to reading and thinking by veterans, rather than actual gaming use for new inductees to the world.

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1 hour ago, Corvantir said:

You are right but part of the reason why I assume most of the players will be Sartarite exiles is that I want to use the clan creation rules of Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes and Pavis: Gateway to Adventure. I consider them to be a great tool to present Glorantha to the players as it conveys a lot of information about the setting in a fun way.

They could have gone to Pavis to make their fortune, or to follow earlier relatives who went with Dorasor. Maybe they have feld some clan problems, or made an enemy of a powerful warrior from a rival clan. Perhaps their families have fled the rebellion or were outlawed by their clan. They could be mercenaries, starting out to build a reputation. 

Not all Sartarites in Pavis/Prax are rebels, fleeing the Lunars.

My players are new to the setting, so it can help a lot to get the ball rolling. And being strangers in a strange land, it explains why they don't know the area and thus their lack of knowledge about this part of the setting.   ;)

In that case what is the problem? New players won't care about Sartarites working for the Lunars, even though you are not keen on the idea.

Let them roll up PCs and start them off as mercenaries working for Duke Raus. Don't give them a choice, just put them there and let them work out the ramifications. Have a rabid Wind Lord turn up sometime and shout at them for being traitors to Sartar, keep him as a recurring NPC to stir things up a bit. Have the PCs compare him to the Humakti head of mercenaries and with the eminently reasonable Duke Raus. Put some ogres in Roneland and have Duke raus order the PCs in no uncertain terms to get rid of them, to show his anti-chaos feelings. 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Kim said:

I can definitely see and agree with your point of view, here. I do think there are others; for example, the 'deracinated foreigners off the boat in a foreign, foreign land' approach (as taken from Tekumel). As far as being new to the setting, I don't see any difference or advantage between your plan and my quibble. When we are easing newbies into the world, I would argue that it's easier to introduce them to it as monads, cut off from their social network, but given an interesting political situation -- from which they can explore history and culture around them, as they wish. In my experience, running fresh players through any kind of clan/family/background pre-game results in them never leaving it; they end up playing in that pre-game forever.

Not to knock clan-generation kinds of systems per se; I think they're great fun and well interesting.I just think that they're much better geared to reading and thinking by veterans, rather than actual gaming use for new inductees to the world.

I will change the end of the clan questionnaire. It can be as simple as replacing the last "why did your family..." questions with "why did YOU..." questions and ask them to write down when and why they came to the Borderlands. It will be clear from the start that this is not a clan based campaign, at least at the beginning, who knows what the players will want to do after this campaign or how it will turn out ?

The goal is to introduce my friends to the setting through the Borderlands and Beyond campaign and advance through the setting timeline. This will allow me to progressively bring into play all the published material I own. With HeroQuest: Glorantha, everything can be used with a minimal work which is very important.   ;)

The mercenary part of the Borderlands and Beyond campaign is also an excellent way to introduce other new players progressively as "guest stars" or as temporary replacements when "core" players can't come to the next session. Each session will be a long one so that a scenario can be started and ended in the same session. I thus hope to create a pool of "educated" players so that one shots can be played from time to time with whoever is interested and why not start another campaign in the future with other "core" players, and so on...   :)

 

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1 hour ago, Kim said:

I think you've got the seed of a really fun game, and a really fun Gloranthan game, already in the works :)  Please, please do y'all come back and tell us about what's happening in it.

Thank you, I have never reported a game or a campaign over a forum so far but it could be a good way to thank everybody for all the good suggestions.   ;)

You will have to be patient though. A friend of mine starts a campaign this fall and I plan to start mine after this one. The following months will be used for prep.

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