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auyl

Biblically inspired Jewish mythology perfect for a historical/mythological game!

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If anyone is running something either historical or mythological in any game world, then the Book of Enoch will be perfect to use as an out of game and in game resource. Get my printing of it here.

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Basically describes in more details the happenings of Genesis 6 and where the giants came from and then moves on to Enoch getting visions of heaven and describing different angelic orders lastly some historical info from the 400 years between the old and new testaments.

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Auyl,

Who wrote the book of Enoch (Enoch?), and what do we know of him? Was the book of Enoch one of the Dead Sea scrolls?

Sorry to be a pest but it's interesting...

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5 hours ago, rsanford said:

Auyl,

Who wrote the book of Enoch (Enoch?), and what do we know of him? Was the book of Enoch one of the Dead Sea scrolls?

Sorry to be a pest but it's interesting...

It is interesting especially since the book was considered for New Testament canon but simply we don't know who actually wrote it. It wasn't one of the Dead Sea Scrolls originally but I have no doubts parts of it were found in that collection.

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On 7/24/2016 at 10:54 PM, auyl said:

If anyone is running something either historical or mythological in any game world, then the Book of Enoch will be perfect to use as an out of game and in game resource. Get my printing of it here.

Is it available as a PDF?

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I got it for 1€ on my Kindle. However hard to read through. The repetition of visions goes a bit boring, and this obsession of punishing sinners in horrible tourments made me feel unconfortable. The guys who wrote that were obviously not completely sane.

Bit still, beyond what auyl mentionned, I liked the explanation of the seasons and cosmic cycles with the 6 gates of the sun, too. There some material for a fantasy world.

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I love the Book of Enoch, it is completely hilarious.  It goes into great detail about how the angels work the doors that allow the winds in and how the rain falls through a great sieve hidden behind the clouds.  This world machine would be dear to any Mostali's heart, but we Godlearners merely smile politely, then giggle to each other about their failure to understand basic meteorological principles from behind our imported Kralorelan fans while sipping fizzy beverages made from exotic Dawn Isles fruit and herbs.  

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On 7/24/2016 at 5:54 PM, auyl said:

If anyone is running something either historical or mythological in any game world, then the Book of Enoch will be perfect to use as an out of game and in game resource. Get my printing of it here.

I use the Book of Enoch and Book of Giants, Epic of  Gilgamesh and some of the  Hindu wrighting of ancient air battles. In the Dead Sea scrolls the Book of Enoch was on a bronze scroll but was to brittle to unroll. 

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This was a post of mine in another thread. But thought it appropriate to repost here.

Now in apocryphal Book of  Enoch it talks about watcher that came down  and shared with men knowledge and technology that was gonna end up being there destruction so these watcher were bound and earth was destroyed so the knowledge and corruption would not go forward. So I'm thinking at this corporation discovered where these Watchers where bound and it's the watchers that fed the corporation. All its great advances in technology and FTL travel.

Was going to use the Watchers for Mythic Rome but may use them here as well. Here's some quotes from the apocryphal text.

CHAP. 7.—And they took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in to them, and mixed with them, and taught them charms and  conjurations, and made them acquainted with the cutting of roots and of woods. 2. And they became pregnant and brought forth great giants whose stature was three thousand ells. 3. These devoured all the acquisitions of mankind till men were unable to sustain themselves. 4. And the giants turned themselves against mankind in order to devour them. 5. And they began to sin against the birds and the beasts, and against the creeping things, and the fish, and devoured their flesh among themselves, and drank the blood thereof. 6. Then the earth
complained of the unjust ones.
CHAP. 8.—And Azâzêl taught mankind to make swords and knives and shields and coats of mail, and taught them to see what was behind them, and their works of art: bracelets and
ornaments, and the use of rouge, and the beautifying of the eye-brows, and the dearest and choicest stones and all coloring substances and the metals of the earth. 2. And there was great wickedness and much fornication, and they sinned, and all their ways were corrupt. 3. Amêzârâk taught all the conjurers and root-cutters, Armârôs the loosening of conjurations, Baraq’âl the astrologers, Kôkâbêl the signs, and Temêl taught astrology, and Asrâdêl taught the course of the moon.
 
4. The name of the first Jeqûn; he is the one who has led astray all the children of the holy angels, and has led them down on the earth, and has led them astray through the daughters of men. 5. And the second is called Asbeêl; he is the one who has taught the children of the holy angels the wicked device, and has led them astray to destroy their bodies with the daughters of men. 6. And the third is called Gâdreêl; he is the one who has taught the children of men all the blows of death, and led astray Eve, and showed to the children of men the instruments of
death, the coat-of-mail and the shield and the sword for battle, and all the instruments of death to the sons of men. 7. And from his hand they have come over those who dwell on the earth, from that time to eternity, 8. And the fourth is called Pênêmû; he has taught the sons of men the bitter and the sweet, and taught them all the secrets of their wisdom. 9. He taught men writing with ink and paper (GTR), and thereby many sinned from eternity and to eternity and up to this day. 10. For men were not born to the purpose that they should thus strengthen their fidelity with a pen (GTR) and with ink. 11. For man was not created otherwise than the angels, that they should remain just and pure, and death, which destroys all things, would not have touched them, but through this their knowledge they are
destroyed, and through this power it devours me. 12. And the fifth is named Kasdejâ; he has taught the sons of men all the wicked beatings of the spirits and the demons, the beatings of
the birth in the womb, that it [i.e. the birth] fall, and the beatings of the soul, the bites of the serpent, and the beatings which take place at noon, the son of the serpent whose name is Tabâ’t. 13. And this is the number of Kesbeêl, who showed the head of the oath to the holy ones, when he dwelt high in glory; and his name is Bêqâ. 14. And this one said to the holy Michael that he should show them the secret name, that they might see that secret name, and that they might mention this name in the oath, and they may tremble before that name and the oath, those that showed to the children of men all that is secret. 15. And this is the power of that oath, for it is powerful and strong, and he placed this oath Akâe’ into the hands of the holy Michael. 16. And these are the secrets of this oath, and they were strengthened by his oath, and heaven was suspended before the earth was made, and to eternity.
3. Why have ye left the high, holy, and
everlasting heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men, and taken wives unto yourselves, and acted like the children of earth, and begotten giants
as sons? 4. While ye were spiritual, holy, having eternal life, ye defiled yourselves with women, and with the blood of flesh have begotten children, and have lusted after the blood of men, and have produced flesh and blood as they produce who die and are destroyed. 5. Therefore I have given them wives that they might impregnate them and children be born by them, as it is done on earth. 6. Ye were formerly spiritual, living an eternal life without
death to all the generations of the world. 7. Therefore I have not made for you any wives, for spiritual beings have their home in heaven. 8. And now the giants, who have been begotten from body and flesh, will be called evil spirits on earth, and their dwelling-places will be upon the earth. 9. Evil spirits proceed from their bodies; because they are created from above, their beginning and first basis being from the holy watchers, they will be evil spirits upon the earth, and will be called evil spirits. 10. But the spirits of heaven have their dwelling-places in heaven, and the spirits of the earth, who were born on the earth, have
their dwelling-places on earth. 11. And the spirits of the giants, who cast themselves upon the clouds, will be destroyed and fall, and will battle and cause destruction on the earth, and
do evil; they will take no kind of food, nor will they become thirsty, and they will be invisible. 12. And these spirits will not (?) rise up against the children of men and against the women,
because they have proceeded from them. In the days of murder and destruction.
CHAP. 16.—and of the death of the giants, when the spirits have proceeded from the bodies, their flesh shall decay without judgment; thus they shall be destroyed till that day when the great judgment over all the great world shall be completed over the watchers and the impious. 2. And now to the watchers who have sent thee that thou shouldst petition forthem who were formerly in heaven say: 3. ‘Ye have been in heaven, and though the secrets were not yet revealed to you, still ye knew illegitimate mysteries, and these ye have, in the hardness of your hearts, related to the women, and through these mysteries women and men increase wickedness over the earth.’ 4. Tell them therefore: ‘Ye have no peace!’”
 
7. And on that day two monsters will be distributed, a
female monster, named Leviathan, to dwell in the depth of the sea, over the fountains of the waters. 8. But the masculine is named Behemoth, who occupies, with his breast, a void
desert called Dêndâin, in the east of the garden where the chosen and holy will dwell, where my grandfather was taken up, the seventh from Adam, the first of men whom the Lord of the
spirits made. 9. And I asked that other angel that he should show me the power of those monsters, how they were separated on ONE day, and that one descended into the depths of the sea and the other to the desert land. 
 
Also some fragments of the book of Giants 
 
1Q23 Frag. 1 + 6 [ . . . two hundred] 2donkeys, two hundred asses, two hundred . . . rams of the] 3flock, two hundred goats, two hundred [ . . . beast of the] 4field from every animal, from every [bird . . . ] 5[ . . . ] for miscegenation [ . . . ] 

 

4Q531 Frag. 2 [ . . . ] they defiled [ . . . ] 2[ . . . they begot] giants and monsters [ . . . ] 3[ . . . ] they begot, and, behold, all [the earth was corrupted . . . ] 4[ . . . ] with its blood and by the hand of [ . . . ] 5[giant's] which did not suffice for them and [ . . . ] 6[ . . . ] and they were seeking to devour many [ . . . ] 7[ . . . ] 8[ . . . ] the monsters attacked it. 

4Q532 Col. 2 Frags. 1 - 6 2[ . . . ] flesh [ . . . ] 3al[l . . . ] monsters [ . . . ] will be [ . . . ] 4[ . . . ] they would arise [ . . . ] lacking in true knowledge [ . . . ] because [ . . . ] 5[ . . . ] the earth [grew corrupt . . . ] mighty [ . . . ] 6[ . . . ] they were considering [ . . . ] 7[ . . . ] from the angels upon [ . . . ] 8[ . . . ] in the end it will perish and die [ . . . ] 9[ . . . ] they caused great corruption in the [earth . . . ] [ . . . this did not] suffice to [ . . . ] "they will be [ . . . ]

The outcome of the demonic corruption was violence, perversion, and a brood of monstrous beings.
 
So after all this knowledge was given man. The Watchers were caught bound chained buried as described below.
And the earth was flooded mankind for the most part destroyed to remove this knowledge from the earth.
 
Bind Azâzêl hand and foot, and put him in the darkness; make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudâêl, and put him there. 5. And lay upon him rough and pointed rocks, and cover him with darkness that he may remain there forever, and cover his
face that he may not see the light!
 
Might be fun to work with.

 

 

 

 

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This is why I've always loved the Book of Enoch. There's so much to dive into and think about. None of it is Biblical canon and I would never think it is, but these stories came from somewhere.

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Many of them do. Means there's a common source, I personally choose the Biblical account to believe in but many Middle Eastern mythologies are very similar. I don't know about the Orient, but even Native American's have a flood story.

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This is not surprising, considering centuries, when not millenia of mesopotamian cultural importance and influence. The biblical flood myth is a copy of the the Mesopotamian one. It is the same story, they just changed the characters, the gods and the motivation. Belgath, if you have read Gilgamesh, you know what I mean.

I've seen somewhere (was it mentionned on Google + ?) a work trying to establish family trees for the various myths using a statistical method, comparing comon themes and relating them to the diverse human migrations. It was interesting.

There is also another theory explaning that many myths are similar because they all come from our comon subconscient.

It is probably bit of all of this, but there are also many unique myths, legends and stories.

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I love reading the old myths. with google books scanning in all the book in the Library  of Congress there is now available many translation of ancient writing that most of us would have never been aloud to see. Fascinating stuff.

11 hours ago, Zit said:

This is not surprising, considering centuries, when not millenia of mesopotamian cultural importance and influence. The biblical flood myth is a copy of the the Mesopotamian one. It is the same story, they just changed the characters, the gods and the motivation. Belgath, if you have read Gilgamesh, you know what I mean.

I've seen somewhere (was it mentionned on Google + ?) a work trying to establish family trees for the various myths using a statistical method, comparing comon themes and relating them to the diverse human migrations. It was interesting.

There is also another theory explaning that many myths are similar because they all come from our comon subconscient.

It is probably bit of all of this, but there are also many unique myths, legends and stories.

 The Epic of Gilgamesh was what  got me interested in mythology in the first place. 

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On 10/27/2016 at 4:14 AM, Zit said:

I've seen somewhere (was it mentionned on Google + ?) a work trying to establish family trees for the various myths using a statistical method, comparing comon themes and relating them to the diverse human migrations. It was interesting.

This?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-trace-society-rsquo-s-myths-to-primordial-origins/

 

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On 27/10/2016 at 7:14 AM, Zit said:

This is not surprising, considering centuries, when not millenia of mesopotamian cultural importance and influence. The biblical flood myth is a copy of the the Mesopotamian one. It is the same story, they just changed the characters, the gods and the motivation. Belgath, if you have read Gilgamesh, you know what I mean.

I've seen somewhere (was it mentionned on Google + ?) a work trying to establish family trees for the various myths using a statistical method, comparing comon themes and relating them to the diverse human migrations. It was interesting.

There is also another theory explaning that many myths are similar because they all come from our comon subconscient.

It is probably bit of all of this, but there are also many unique myths, legends and stories.

With stuff like this, from a theological stand point it's not which story is oldest but which one is correct.

I will continue with the realization I am a Christian theologian so will speak from that perspective.

The fact is, the Egyptian sun and Middle Eastern moon based religions were indeed older than Judaism and that is why you see the book of Genesis refer to the sun and moon as "great lights" so that there was no onus on Jews to rever them as anything more than created beings. Other religions around them however were talking about them being gods.

Same with the flood. Where many other older religions have the same story, the Bible tries to correct the account.

This being said, for game purposes do whatever you want. Maybe there's another religion, that the GM made up, that has the true story. Could make an interesting adventure after all.

Historical gaming, like fantasy gaming, can go any way you please. I've published the book as inspiration for such things.

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1 hour ago, auyl said:

This being said, for game purposes do whatever you want. Maybe there's another religion, that the GM made up, that has the true story. Could make an interesting adventure after all.

Historical gaming, like fantasy gaming, can go any way you please. I've published the book as inspiration for such things.

Historical gaming (I mean truly historical, not just history-flavoured) is more simulation than pure fantasy, so in this case. if you want it be acurate, you cannot completely go any way you please.

The main interest of historical gaming, as I see it, is indeed to recreate the World as it was conceived at that time, and not with our modern understanding or our own truth.This means that the myths and beliefs of the simulated culture are gamewise true, either Mesopotamian, Jewish, Christian, Animist, Tengriist or whatever. Before thinking about which equipment was available, you must start to try to think like the people living at that time. One big point (the main one ?) is how do the beliefs interfere with the perceived reality and how to translate this into a game rule. It becomes difficult when different cultures are beeing confronted, like in your exemple with the sun and the moon. You have then to introduce some relativism while keeping game balance, which obliges to see both beliefs as a different representation and conception of the same universe, without hierarchising them or having one being truer than the other one. For the Babylonian, there is a sun god (Shamash) and a moon god (Sîn); For the Jew, there is only one god (Yaveh) (*). For game balance and fun, the powers a polytheist worshipper can get from one of his gods should not be more or less powerful than those a monotheist whorshipper get from his single god If you play an Egyptian Râ-priest, it is gamewise unfair to have him be beaten by any Jewish Priest NPC just because his god is more powerful than yours :), and conversely.

 

(*) well, it is actually not so clear, but I won't start a discuiin here

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That's all fair. Of course you know how I'd bend the religion side but that's just me. Good points though. In ancient days wars weren't just about land or treasure they were also seen as contests between the national god(s). So using divine magic wouldn't be unheard of as battles between adventuring groups could and possibly would be seen the same way.

Edited by auyl
Grammar

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On 10/26/2016 at 4:29 PM, auyl said:

This is why I've always loved the Book of Enoch. There's so much to dive into and think about. None of it is Biblical canon and I would never think it is, but these stories came from somewhere.

Just got around to reading this topic.  To correct the above statement, The Book Of Enoch *is* canon  among the Ethiopian Jews and the Ethiopian Orthodox churches.  Not HUGE sects, to be sure, but not entirely trivial, as they also claim to have the Ark of the Covenant in their keeping.

PS: Just checked Wikipedia, and it is canon in the Eritrean Orthodox Church, as well.

PPS: Probably canon in the bible for script writers on Supernatural, as well :-).

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