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Nel

Cardinal points

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Using North, South, East and West as the cardinal points in Glorantha is rather dull to me. That's why I'm looking for names that carry some mythical meaning.

My first idea was using the Pillar Gods that support the Sky Dome, such as the one in GtG p.155:
- North: White Pillar
- South: ?
- East: ?
- West: ?
Unfortunately, I haven't found his name nor any word about the other three Pillar Gods.

Another idea, based on GtG p.159, was using the border places as the cardinal points:
- North: Altinela
- South: ?
- East: Vithela
- West: Luathela
Alas, the name for South is lacking.
The South point in the map of GtG p. 159 is occupied by Sramak, but that river surrrounds the whole Middle World.
Another option would be naming South as the Sea of Fire, but it breaks the harmony with Altinela, Luathela and Vithela.
According to the Revealed Mythologies, the southernmost point of Pamaltela is Sakum (http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Sakum), but it doesn't look to be canon anymore since Sakum doesn't appear in the Guide's index.

My last try, and the one I prefer the most, would be incarnating the cardinal points into the Gods dwelling there:
- North: Valind
- South: ?
- East: Theya
- West: Rausa
Again, the name for South is lacking.

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1 hour ago, Nel said:

Using North, South, East and West as the cardinal points in Glorantha is rather dull to me. That's why I'm looking for names that carry some mythical meaning.

My first idea was using the Pillar Gods that support the Sky Dome, such as the one in GtG p.155:
- North: White Pillar
- South: ?
- East: ?
- West: ?
Unfortunately, I haven't found his name nor any word about the other three Pillar Gods.

 

See the Guide: The Gods Wall. Note, however, that the use of these as the cardinal directions is probably limited to Dara Happa.

The Overseers
The first thing which Yelm did when he came upon the Earth was to name lords over the four quarters. 
 
Asharthcha
White Overseer of the North, Ruler of the Compass, Keeper of Wisdom. He is also called the Long-bearded Measurer.
The White Overseer was destroyed by Umatum.
 
Indarthrad
Yellow Overseer of the East, Ruler of the Ketstick, Keeper of Insight. He is also called the Beardless Measurer.
 
Nemarthshar
Red Overseer of the South, Ruler of the Right Angle, Keeper of Strength. 
 
Vanarthurd
Blue Overseer of the West, Ruler of the Plumb, Keeper of Sovereignty. 
 
You can derive the colours of the Pillars from the colours associated with each Overseer.
 
Edited by M Helsdon
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Alternatively, you can use the four jumpers - Theya (east), Rausa (west), Kalikos (North) and the usually invisible (because noon riser) Erindamus (south), or the associated times of the day - morning/dawn, noon, evening/dusk, midnight.

Another four directions scheme are the great gods of the cultures - Malkion (or Zzabur, Invisible God) for the West, Yelm (or Genert) for the North, Vith for the East and Pamalt for the South. Only God Learner wannabes would use this scheme, though - no native God Learner ever thought of themselves as anything other than the center of the world.

If you want to take demigods for the four directions, the Altinae of Altinela, the Luatha of Luathela and the Promalti of Enmal are known, but the Vithelan east requires some handwaving - possibly one of the Antigod races.

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2 hours ago, Nel said:

According to the Revealed Mythologies, the southernmost point of Pamaltela is Sakum (http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Sakum), but it doesn't look to be canon anymore since Sakum doesn't appear in the Guide's index.

Sakum is however mentioned in the Guide Map p159.  Have a look at the legends surrounding the four races. On the south, upside down, are the letters Sakum (which I see you think is Sramak).  And Revealed Mythologies is still part of the new canon.

Edited by metcalph
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1 hour ago, metcalph said:

And Revealed Mythologies is still part of the new canon.

I don't think it's as simple as that. Even Greg says, in the intro to Revealed Mythologies (my emphasis):

Quote

This book is a collection and compilation of several reference works that I have been compiling over the last 
couple of decades or so. I do not consider them complete, finished, or even necessarily correct at this stage.

I'm pretty sure that Jeff has said similar things in the past. Some parts of the Stafford Library are more canon than others.

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4 hours ago, Steve said:

I'm pretty sure that Jeff has said similar things in the past. Some parts of the Stafford Library are more canon than others.

Their status as a 'deep source' is such that they are a collection of Greg (and others) writings on Glorantha and of interest to deep scholars, but some parts may no longer be canon having been superceded by later writing. Something like Arcane Lore is very dubious, though fascinating for intent, whereas something like the History of the Heortling Peoples is much more accurate withe some errors.

My take is that they are bit like Herodotus's Histories, particularly if presented as a Gloranthan document. Much is of interest, and some of it is tremendous scholarship, but parts may turn out to be lies under examination ;-)

 

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[Grizzled Praxian Nomad-Elder] "Yeh've heard th' North called 'the White Pillar" and "Kalikos" and such-like... hereabouts, son, we call it Yelm's Right Hand.  Off that-a-way then is o' course Yelm's Left Hand.  Off there by the sunset, is where Yelm Pisses, and t'other way is... what?  Why should I care what yon Sun Dome prissy-pants thinks??!?"

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Summarizing your very useful comments, every culture uses a different four directions scheme according to their own traditions:


Dara-Happans and worshippers of the Solar pantheon use the Overseers as reference:
- North: Asharthcha
- South: Nemarthshar
- East: Indarthrad
- West: Vanarthurd


The rest of the Lunar Empire -and Gloranthans with not yet known tradition- use the colors of the Pillar gods:
- North: White
- South: Red
- East: Yellow
- West: Blue
I smiled when I noticed that the Lunar Empire struggles to expand towards Red.


Using Jumpers as the Cardinal points would be perfect, but there is no Southern jumper, and I can't imagine a merchant from Pavis heading One Night Wish towards Corflu.
- North: Kalikos
- South: ?
- East: Theya
- West: Rausa
Jorg proposes Erindamus as South, but it doesn't apear in the GtG index. According to http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/South_Star, Erindamus is a dog god of Saird (the lowland valley between Jillaro and Mirin's Cross, at the Lunar Provinces). Such a under-rated deity from such a irrelevant place! He doesn't look to deserve to name a reference point.


And lastly, the Cardinal points might be the lands of the Demigods dwelling at the borders of the Middle World:
- North: Altinela
- South: Sakum
- East: Vithela
- West: Luathela


Of course, Doraddi, Kralori, Westerners, and so on, use different names.
Even trolls would have a different scheme based on their Darksense!

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4 hours ago, Nel said:

Using Jumpers as the Cardinal points would be perfect, but there is no Southern jumper

There is a southern Jumper, but simply not visible since it rises and sets while the Sun is in the sky.  The DH name it Erindamus, the loyal dog who joins his master the Sun (since noted in GRoY, I think it remains canonical).  And while recognized in Saird as well, the name really covers at least the Oslir valley/DH.

Now we know the Orlanthi hate dogs, so they are unlikely to call it that (if they even look for it).  But I don't see the Orlanthi referencing by star or pillar.  Their references would be to the winds, and if I remember correctly, the wind associations (Pentan reference from old Genertela book but likely applicable to Kolati) are:

North: War Wind (Humakt)

West: King Wind (Orlanth)

South: Rage Wind (Storm Bull)

East: Sting Wind (Gagarth)

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8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Now we know the Orlanthi hate dogs, so they are unlikely to call it that (if they even look for it).  But I don't see the Orlanthi referencing by star or pillar.  Their references would be to the winds, and if I remember correctly, the wind associations (Pentan reference from old Genertela book but likely applicable to Kolati) are:

The Kolati Winds are given in the Sartar Companion and are different from the Pentan scheme.  

Humakt and Vadrus are called in the Book of Heortling Mythology "the chill North Winds".  North Wind is also mentioned a few times (once at the battle of Stormfall and distinguished from Humakt, another in the strange fragment of King of Sartar p67).  Storm Bull is more likely to be the East Wind to the Orlanthi since his winds blow out of the Wastelands compared to Dragon Pass.  The South Wind may be Heler but I'm basing this on probably superseded information in Storm Tribe: Cults of Sartar - I doubt that it's Brastalos.  The identity of the West Wind is kind of open and I'm kind of inclined to associate them with Vadrus and his sons.

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Brastalos is the Inner Wind, the Cardinal Direction of Inwards. I thought that Orlanthi had Seven Cardinal Directions, North, South, East, West, Above, Below and Inwards. Doesn't King of Sartar list the Seven Winds?

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