Riding Animals

[Noita]

Duck war carts! Pulled by giant snails with mobility matrixes...

 

and certainly not toads....

http://duxploitation.blogspot.fi/2007/12/durulz-toad-rider-c-1628.html

Edited August 16, 2016 by Iskallor

[Zit]

They may ride traskars, like the Newtlings of Five-Eyes temple.

[Byll]

15 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Duck war carts! Pulled by giant snails with mobility matrixes...

 

...incorporating open-top barrels of water for added duckomfort, (not very suitable off road without a leather splash-skirt to keep the water in). 

[Noita]

Or on the shoulders of herdsmen.

[M Helsdon]

[Trying to determine the Logistics of Gloranthan cavalry based as closely as possible on terrestrial equivalents. The intake of horses in various sources vary enormously, so I've taken what seems to be an 'average'.]

 

The requirements of different mounts varies.

 

Horses require more water, fodder and care than their riders. A single horse eats between 12-14 lbs. of hard fodder and 14-16 lbs. of green or dry fodder per day, and this varies with temperature and exercise. Horses also need 8-20 gallons of water per day. Foraging for fodder is not always practical because sudden changes in diet can bring on colic or founder (inflammation of the hoof) which can render the horse incapacitated for weeks. This means that sufficient water, feed, and tack must be transported.

 

Praxian riding animals are generally tougher and more resilient to changes in diet and have lower water requirements, but most have specific dietary requirements.

 

Most can be allowed to graze for much of their food, but the time this takes reduces the vailability of them as riding animals.

 

	Food lbs. per day	Water Gallons per day
Bison	24	5
Bolo Lizard	8	0.5
Demi-Bird	25#	2
Demon Horse	30#	1
High Llama	30-60	3-5
Horse	25-30	8-20
Impala	2-4	0.5-1
Mule	20-25	8-20
Ostrich	8	1.5 (but can go without drinking for days)
Rhino	120	20 in a five day period
Sable	20	2
Tusker	25	12
Unicorn	20-30	5-10
Zebra	20-30	5-10

 

# Fresh meat.

[g33k]

On 8/17/2016 at 1:21 AM, Byll said:

...incorporating open-top barrels of water for added duckomfort, (not very suitable off road without a leather splash-skirt to keep the water in). 

One occasionally sees a Gloranthan duck pictured wearing what seems to be an anachronistic/anomalous "renaissance" style collar, such as this .  In fact, this is fastened to the top of a Duckomfort Barrel to prevent spills and splashes.  It was invented by ducks of the Zola Fel valley, who found it impossible to travel across the arid wastes and arrive at the next oasis with any water left...

[Zit]

Since Glorantha is a bronze age world, what about saddles? Are there any? This question probably alredy arose in another thread, but I can't remember where.

[rust]

23 minutes ago, Zit said:

Since Glorantha is a bronze age world, what about saddles? Are there any? 

According to the Glorantha Wiki there are both saddles and stirrups.

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, Zit said:

Since Glorantha is a bronze age world, what about saddles? Are there any? This question probably alredy arose in another thread, but I can't remember where.

 

The earliest saddles were simple fringed cloths or pads held on with a girth or surcingle that included breast straps and cruppers. Later a rudimentary frame, with two parallel leather cushions, a girth attached to them, a pommel and cantle was developed. The solid saddle tree raises the rider above the horse’s back, and distributed their weight on either side of the mount’s spine.

 

The Western saddle has a high cantle and pommels which act as high guard clamps that curve across the top of the rider’s thighs and fasten to the saddle, enabling the rider to stay properly seated, especially during violent combat. It consists of a wooden tree supporting more weight from a rider with armor and weapons, padded with wool or horsehair and covered in leather or cloth.

 

Praxian saddles (especially those of bison and high llama riders) also feature a raised cantle and pommels to hold the rider firmly in the seat.

 

Stirrups are not widely known or used. The Pentans have adopted them as they permit a horse archer to ‘stand’ when shooting, absorbing the motion of the horse and enhancing the accuracy of the archer. In response, some Lunar cavalry units have recently adopted their use.

Edited August 20, 2016 by M Helsdon

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, rust said:

According to the Glorantha Wiki there are both saddles and stirrups.

The Glorantha Wiki is a well maintained and useful source. However it's not official and so can't be considered to be a "canon" source. It's references are however pretty good and I use it regularly. It would be more helpful to say there are references on the Glorantha Wiki that cite the use of saddles and stirrups and point to them. I've just been over there to look and am not sure which pages you are referring to. Could you please link to them, it would be helpful to others so we can read the references.

[M Helsdon]

17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The Glorantha Wiki is a well maintained and useful source. However it's not official and so can't be considered to be a "canon" source. It's references are however pretty good and I use it regularly. It would be more helpful to say there are references on the Glorantha Wiki that cite the use of saddles and stirrups and point to them. I've just been over there to look and am not sure which pages you are referring to. Could you please link to them, it would be helpful to others so we can read the references.

http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=stirrups&fulltext=Search

From this the primary source is The Fortunate Succession: pages 12, 23 and 85.

Page 12: 'always without stirrups'.

Page 23: 'He stood up in his stirrups'.

Page 85: 'it was certainly NOT the introduction of stirrups, which came much later'.

So one reference, which may or may not be accurate.

And 'The History of the Dara Happan Army', which may no longer be fully canonical.

I've just posted a question to Jeff on the Gods War Q&A update about stirrups, but the questioning period may have ended.

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by M Helsdon

[rust]

55 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Could you please link to them, it would be helpful to others so we can read the references.

See here under "Riding":

http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Horse

[rust]

And as for saddles, Pavis - Gateway to Adventure mentions on page 199 under "Clothiers and Leatherworkers" where one can have a saddle made in Pavis.

[M Helsdon]

23 minutes ago, rust said:

See here under "Riding":

http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Horse

There's only one reference in the wiki to 'saddle':

http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=saddle&fulltext=Search

However, saddles aren't contentious - there are many canonical illustrations of saddles in the Guide.

 

[rust]

21 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

There's only one reference in the wiki to 'saddle':

Yes, but the mention of stirrups in the Glorantha Wiki implies the existence of saddles, because stirrups without any kind of saddle would make precious little sense.

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, rust said:

Yes, but the mention of stirrups in the Glorantha Wiki implies the existence of saddles, because stirrups without any kind of saddle would make precious little sense.

Saddles were used, in the terrestrial world, by light and heavy cavalry, for centuries before stirrups were introduced from the steppes. The same applies for Glorantha, I suspect. As a Late Iron Age introduction, stirrups don't really mesh with Glorantha. Roman and Persian cataphracti used heavy lances and impact charges long before the stirrup, relying upon horned saddles to keep the rider in their seat. [Whilst he was re-enacting an earlier period, a Roman cavalry re-enactor I chatted with once, told me that he found riding in a four-horned saddle without stirrups easy, once he got used to it, and there wasn't a risk of being caught up in the stirrups if he fell off in mock combat.]

If you examine the illustrations, all canonical, in The Guide to Glorantha, you will find many saddles being used by human riders, but perhaps only one or two of stirrups, and those may have got through the editorial filter.

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by M Helsdon

[metcalph]

I really have to revise that article at some stage.  It relies on post-canonical material (Anaxial's Roster has a person from the Logic Tribe stand up in his stirrups) as well as Greg's horse article (the status of which is unknown).  

[M Helsdon]

On the Gods War Q&A thread, Jeff has posted this:

Jeff Richard Collaborator about 4 hours ago

I have to admit, I don't buy Lynn White's claims about stirrups being revolutionary. There's plenty of archaeological evidence that the stirrup was known to the Parthians, Sakas, and the Chinese, and a fair amount of speculation that it was known to the Scythians and others.
So we have some stirrups in Glorantha - we know the Praxians use them. I suspect for the bison and high llama Riders, they are most important as a technique to get on and off their mount (they are awfully darn hard to mount without something like a stirrup).
I don't think stirrups are used in the West though. They aren't feudal knights.

 

[pachristian]

For a good reference on horses check out: The Medieval Warhorse: From Byzantium to the Crusades (History/prehistory & Medieval History), by Ann Hyland (Sutton Publishing, 1994). 

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, pachristian said:

For a good reference on horses check out: The Medieval Warhorse: From Byzantium to the Crusades (History/prehistory & Medieval History), by Ann Hyland (Sutton Publishing, 1994). 

Interesting, but too late Iron Age for Glorantha.

[Zit]

On 18.8.2016 at 9:03 PM, M Helsdon said:

[Trying to determine the Logistics of Gloranthan cavalry based as closely as possible on terrestrial equivalents. The intake of horses in various sources vary enormously, so I've taken what seems to be an 'average'.]

 

 

	Food lbs. per day	Water Gallons per day
Bison	24	5
Bolo Lizard	8	0.5
Demi-Bird	25#	2
Demon Horse	30#	1
High Llama	30-60	3-5
Horse	25-30	8-20
Impala	2-4	0.5-1
Mule	20-25	8-20
Ostrich	8	1.5 (but can go without drinking for days)
Rhino	120	20 in a five day period
Sable	20	2
Tusker	25	12
Unicorn	20-30	5-10
Zebra	20-30	5-10

 

# Fresh meat.

Good job. This should encourage players to consider crossing a desert or an arid country not being a trivial matter, and how riding horses can be a disadvantage vs. praxian beasts in Prax and the Wastes.

BTW, are these US gallons or Imperials ? I wanted to convert all these into metrics for us, poor foreigners (or you may make a version with both ?)

[M Helsdon]

17 minutes ago, Zit said:

BTW, are these US gallons or Imperials ? I wanted to convert all these into metrics for us, poor foreigners (or you may make a version with both ?)

I used the US as I assumed most people would prefer that. However, the variation given for many animals soaks up the difference between US and Imperial units.

[Ali the Helering]

M Helsdon wrote: Stirrups are not widely known or used. The Pentans have adopted them as they permit a horse archer to ‘stand’ when shooting, absorbing the motion of the horse and enhancing the accuracy of the archer. In response, some Lunar cavalry units have recently adopted their use.

 

The RW versions of the Pentans were using horse archery - very effective horse archery - long before the invention of stirrups.  They are in no way required.

Similarly, the use of the lance doesn't require stirrups.  Thessalian lancers couched the sarissa without saddle or stirrups.  Simply because an innovation makes something easier doesn't mean it was wither impossible or ineffective before.

[M Helsdon]

26 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

The RW versions of the Pentans were using horse archery - very effective horse archery - long before the invention of stirrups.  They are in no way required.

I know. Standing in stirrups permits the use of a larger bow, a slight height advantage, and stability, aiding accuracy.

 

27 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Similarly, the use of the lance doesn't require stirrups.  Thessalian lancers couched the sarissa without saddle or stirrups.  Simply because an innovation makes something easier doesn't mean it was wither impossible or ineffective before.

Ditto: Cataphracts and other heavy cavalry were using kontos lances and impact charges long before stirrups were introduced.

[Ali the Helering]

Hmmm.... given the historical examples discovered and described in numerous places I cannot say that I am convinced that the average bow lengthened significantly with the advent of stirrups.  Certainly some of the much later steppe peoples (eg the Crimean Tartars) wield a weapon maybe 5-10% larger than the Scythian weapon 2 millennia earlier, but by then a lot of new technologies of manufacture and horse tack have been achieved.  The slight height advantage is surely offset by presenting a far clearer target?  I can only imagine it being a significant advantage against formed foot with no missile support and poor upper body armour.

As for stability, it depends on whether you are targeting an individual or a mass of troops.  For a duel, yes.  For a battle?  As I say, unconvinced.

The difference between the Thessalian Sarrisaphoroi and the Kataphraktoi is quite significant, since the former were all but unarmoured and armed with the 13 - 20' long sarissa, whereas the Kataphrakt has the weight of their body armour and the far shorter kontos. 

We are also trying to compare the abilities of a RW horse rider with those of a magically augmented Gloranthan.  I know who my money would be on!