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Runequest 2 Rapiers


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Bronze Age. Like this: 

They'd probably spend all their time arguing as to how the rapiers would work in the rules rather than having the duel.

This video is instructive:  

Posted Images

Another sword that could go in the Rapier Class sword is my 2nd favorite rareseen ancient sword : The Colichemarde

I really like her because in french her name is close to "cauchemard" (nightmare) and it's really the nightmare because I gave her good armor points with the ricasso (12PA) and the same damage as rapier (1D6+1 / 3D6 / 18) and the best part : In Glorantha, I made her out of mercury (water metal, Sa-metal) which gave her flexibility of a whip, no malus in water (great advantage in Sog(s) cities). Another ideal weapon again any protection and easy to cary but yet stylish sword !

Colichemarde 05%, 12PA 1D6+1 (E) special : 3D6

480px-Colichemarde_IMG_5570b.jpg

Edited by MJ Sadique
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The colichemarde is perhaps more like the iconic rapiers that most of us think of, not too far off from sport fencing swords like epees and foils.

I definitely think the Gloranthan rapiers would be similar to the ones posted earlier in this thread. Those swords looked much more ancient, and considering they were posted by Jeff and MOB, the current developers for Glorantha, then I think these views would prevail. I would not have initially envisioned those ancient swords as rapiers, they look like a cross between a long knife and a shortsword. However if archaeologists are calling them rapiers then I'm not one to argue. Those swords do look more like a blade I would expect to see wielded in Glorantha, rather than a 'flashing blade' style rapier that I'm more accustomed to imagining in the hands of a hero from an Alexandre Dumas novel.

I do like MJ Sadique's background provided for the french rapier (using Sa-metal etc), so if it works for his/her vision of Glorantha then that's cool. MJSadique has given it alot of flavour.

However for myself, the colichmarde is far too Blackpowder era to be a typical weapon in Glorantha.

Nice pics though :)

Edited by Mankcam
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Nope rust, The colichemarde is a rapier created by Dunkan McLeod ( XD I'm Joking, and yes i'm a big fan of Highlander).

Historically speaking there is not really one "rapier" creation, it's an evolution of a sword's usage and need :

-First, People need a light sword to defend themselves in city when not at war. They use it without armour which give a speed and dodge type fencing : Rapier is born

-Second, Rapier is great at attack but cruelly lack of defensive, so they had a ricasso : a thicker part than the blade without edge : Colichemarde is born

-Third, Rapier(s) are great but people need a shorter sword (rapier blade is 1m length) so they create a 60-90cm length blade : the court sword / Epée (next one)

entiere.jpg

 

Fleuret was a demoiselle's sword (for girls or training) which cannot deal damage but the precedent others are duel weapon made to hurt or kill. In Term of size and weight, the Colichemarde is heavier that a simple rapier (rapier with a ricasso) but the weight in the ricasso help the sword to made quick turn and give it more "agility" so IT IS a rapier and i agree didn't choose the best lookin' image :p.

Most of rapier(s) have more than the design in common : their way to fight... this is probably why Jeff post an ancient Ci sword because they were used in thrusting, but bronze age sword rarely get to a full meter length. Rapier is fencing style used without armor with great mobility. If you are looking for Bronze age sword similar in use to rapier we could class the next one as the best choice of Mycenaean swords (here in steel).

Mycenaean_swords_recostruction.jpg

These one are really cools !

 

Edited by MJ Sadique
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Those two top swords certainly could pass as Gloranthan rapiers.

I especially like the finer pointed blade of the top sword, as it definitely can be presented as a rapier, yet has the ancient flavour a Gloranthan weapon should have.

I could see my Safelstan rogue wandering the dingy streets of Senatos at night with one of those in a worn leather shoulder sling.

I could also envision the Horali caste having more finer or intricate versions to be worn as practical ornamental swords in social settings, depending upon their role and rank within the caste; or perhaps ones that signify what War Society they are associated with. I think they would proudly wear them in well presented side scabbards.

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On 8/23/2016 at 10:44 AM, styopa said:

3) no, people really don't act in sequential order.  We all understand that initiative mechanics are meant to be simplifications of great numbers of actions that (IRL) happen in parallel, right?  I don't really understand his reference to RQ because RQ, as much as I love it, STILL has a sequential resolution system.  His beef, and his sense that RQ doesn't have the issue, is with people doing whatever they want when their initiative comes up based on the situation at that point.  This (I agree) unreasonably empowers toons with bad initiatives because they are much-less-impacted by the earlier actions of people with high init.  They get to react "for free" in essence.  What he likes about RQ's resolution is in the statement-of-intent mechanic which is then resolved through the SR (sequential) system).  One could, theoretically, do that same thing in D&D, if one wanted. (It also sounds like he had a better RQ dm, imo.)

They are different types of sequential orders. For example,in D&D, if it is someone's turn, they could run up to someone else,who was holding a loaded crossbow, 30 feet away and attack them with a sword  before they could react. In RQ, thanks to SR's the guy with the crossbow is going to be able to get a shot off before that happens. In most cases he can even change his action  and "react" to the swordsman during combat and still get the shot off before being attacked. 

 

In RQ what you are doing, and how quick is is to do actually makes a difference on the order or events. Whereas in D&D you could do virtually anything as long as it was considered to take less than a round to do, and it would happen on your turn, without any chance of interruption. 

Edited by Atgxtg
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   I do remember Elves being a big user of Rapiers in early Runequest.

  I  have always felt the  Rapier used by Elves was in fact grown from a relative of the arrow  bush and not a forged weapon perhaps from some sort of Iron(bronze?) wood . But then I have always felt that Glorantha elves would grow many thing instead of forging them if possible.

 

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20 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

They are different types of sequential orders. For example,in D&D, if it is someone's turn, they could run up to someone else,who was holding a loaded crossbow, 30 feet away and attack them with a sword  before they could react. In RQ, thanks to SR's the guy with the crossbow is going to be able to get a shot off before that happens. In most cases he can even change his action  and "react" to the swordsman during combat and still get the shot off before being attacked. 

Not actually.  See below.

In any case, I'm not sure I'd be quite so categorical.  I know we all here prefer the RQ system so it's sort of preaching to the choir, but in the first place, the D&D system of initiative is DELIBERATELY simplified toward speed and MGF, with the rationalization that at least whatever irregularities there are, are consistently applied so they don't benefit one side or the other consistently.   Either way, my point was that his rant was sort of off the mark.  ALL game systems I'm aware of use SOME sort of sequentialist approach to resolve nearly-simultaneous actions, whether it's the simplistic (D&D), the more complicated (RQ) the even-more-complicated (SFB's impulses), to the "you've got to be kidding" (Phoenix Command's 1/10-of-a-seconds resolution).

I'd say that your example - while clearly proving that RQs sequential system is in my view intrinsically better - amounts to a quibble because it was in my view a deliberate tradeoff by EGG.  If they'd trivially opted for the alternative of declaring initial actions and then executing using their mechanics (which would have been much more in the spirit of EGG's wargamey AD&D original rules), they'd be much closer to RQ results anyway.

FWIW in your 30' example, RAW RQ2 a high-dex character (Dex SR0) COULD close 29.5' (9m) to melee an average-dex archer with a ready arrow before that arrow could be loosed (SR3).  Considering the RQ2 text about combat SRs being used simultaneously for movement, then that DexSR 0 toon could be hitting that archer before he fired in RQ too.

Edited by styopa
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3 hours ago, styopa said:

I'd say that your example - while clearly proving that RQs sequential system is in my view intrinsically better - amounts to a quibble because it was in my view a deliberate tradeoff by EGG.  If they'd trivially opted for the alternative of declaring initial actions and then executing using their mechanics (which would have been much more in the spirit of EGG's wargamey AD&D original rules), they'd be much closer to RQ results anyway.

That's in your view. I disagree with your assumptions and your conclusions.

3 hours ago, styopa said:

FWIW in your 30' example, RAW RQ2 a high-dex character (Dex SR0) COULD close 29.5' (9m) to melee an average-dex archer with a ready arrow before that arrow could be loosed (SR3).  Considering the RQ2 text about combat SRs being used simultaneously for movement, then that DexSR 0 toon could be hitting that archer before he fired in RQ too.

No he couldn't. The archer would get the arrow off at SR 2 long before the melee attack. That is a significant difference. 

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33 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

No he couldn't. The archer would get the arrow off at SR 2 long before the melee attack. That is a significant difference. 

The example on page 17 of the RQ2 book disagrees with you. (shrug)

1) it calls someone with Dex SR3 as "average dex"so that's what I was using.

2) it says EXPLICITLY that character will fire the first arrow on SR3, no sooner.

3) a DEX SR 0 character could start moving immediately on Dex SR1 (3m), SR2 (+3m now at 6m), and on SR3 (pg15: if two combatants have the same SR, higher DEX goes first) - in this case, the charging guy has a much higher Dex and would arrive at 9m (29.5') and strike before the lower-dex guy would release the arrow.

I think the RAW are pretty clear?

47 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

That's in your view. I disagree with your assumptions and your conclusions.

Obviously it's my view, as I wrote it.  So we disagree. (shrug)

My point anyway was that he was thematically flailing about looking for reasons to hate on D&D5e, and chose for his example HIS inability to understand how to mechanically approach the D&D initiative system in the most useful way for the spell he wanted to cast.  In the specific example he used, if it were in RQ's SR system it wouldn't have been any different, really - let's say he could pop his spell early on SR 2 or 3, he'd have done so, and (providing the opponents had stated "we're going to move to attack him" previously), being knocked backward by his "push" spell would just mean that on their SR (later) they'd get up and move toward him.  

His explanation of 'how RQ works" wasn't "how RQ works" it was how HIS DM ran that game of RQ which was (statement of intent) + (DM adjudication of what happens) - which a DM could likewise do in D&D just as well, for that matter...in RQ2 BTW there's nothing about changing your statement of intent or reacting aside from being able to cancel actions which are no longer possible.

His complaints are literally pointless.

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Looking at it from a realist point of view, it's not inconceivable in the slightest that someone less than 10 yards away* could reach an archer before he could get an effective shot off (this based on simulation experience, having been an old-time member of the SCA and dealing with these types of things.  He might be able to get a shot off, but the odds are that if he didn't stop to aim carefully it would glance off of the oncoming attacker's armor.

 

* Sorry, I still think in the English system.

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3 hours ago, styopa said:

The example on page 17 of the RQ2 book disagrees with you. (shrug)

1) it calls someone with Dex SR3 as "average dex"so that's what I was using.

2) it says EXPLICITLY that character will fire the first arrow on SR3, no sooner.

3) a DEX SR 0 character could start moving immediately on Dex SR1 (3m), SR2 (+3m now at 6m), and on SR3 (pg15: if two combatants have the same SR, higher DEX goes first) - in this case, the charging guy has a much higher Dex and would arrive at 9m (29.5') and strike before the lower-dex guy would release the arrow.

I think the RAW are pretty clear?

Obviously it's my view, as I wrote it.  So we disagree. (shrug)

It appears though as if you have omitted the attackers weapon strike rank in your example. Even a long spear will mean that the archer gets to loose before the attacker strikes.

SDLeary

P.S. -- What edition are you using. Classic has no combat example on p.17, and I don't see one in the near by pages. The only example is one about ENC.

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Maybe The Trickster is playing with my navigator but lot of posts are NOT in the good thread ! (or double post here ....I think)

Atgxtg : They are different types of sequential orders. ...
Styopa : Not actually.  See below. In any case, I'm not sure I'd be quite so categorical....
Atgxtg : That's in your view. I disagree ...
Styopa : The example on page 17 of ...
Yelm's Light : Looking at it from a realist point of view,...
SDLeary : It appears though as if you have omitted ...

Can an admin move the 6 of them to RQ2 - Strike Rank Basics  or better in the already big RQ2/RQ3 : 2 weapons & 2 attacks in the same round?


 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

Maybe The Trickster is playing with my navigator but lot of posts are NOT in the good thread ! (or double post here ....I think)

...

Can an admin move the 6 of them to RQ2 - Strike Rank Basics  or better in the already big RQ2/RQ3 : 2 weapons & 2 attacks in the same round?

I think it's just a bit of thread-drift...

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On 11/23/2016 at 8:20 PM, SDLeary said:

It appears though as if you have omitted the attackers weapon strike rank in your example. Even a long spear will mean that the archer gets to loose before the attacker strikes.

SDLeary

P.S. -- What edition are you using. Classic has no combat example on p.17, and I don't see one in the near by pages. The only example is one about ENC.

To answer you in reverse order,

2) I'm looking at RQ2, page 17, "Multiple Activities Outside of Melee".

1) in that same section, it says that SR can be combined with movement.  Thus as long as the attackers melee SR is <3 (ie Dex SR0, Siz SR1, and weapon SR 1 for example) his or her weapon would be available to attack by SR 3 when he/she arrives.

20 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Maybe The Trickster is playing with my navigator but lot of posts are NOT in the good thread ! (or double post here ....I think)

(blah blah)

Can an admin move the 6 of them to RQ2 - Strike Rank Basics  or better in the already big RQ2/RQ3 : 2 weapons & 2 attacks in the same round?

 

If we're going to move around threads, I'd include the original post of the video crabbing about D&D initiative system, which started the digression.

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1 hour ago, styopa said:

1) in that same section, it says that SR can be combined with movement.  Thus as long as the attackers melee SR is <3 (ie Dex SR0, Siz SR1, and weapon SR 1 for example) his or her weapon would be available to attack by SR 3 when he/she arrives.

Your referring to this paragraph?

Quote

Of course, at the referee’s option, the 5 points it took to ready the bow and arrow could have been combined with the 3 points of movement. This would give him the time necessary to loose an arrow. Note that a character with average DEX could loose 2 arrows a melee round (strike rank 3 for the rst arrow, then 5 to ready a new arrow and then 3 for shooting the new arrow for a total of 11). 

We never played as you described, because our characters were always using swingy type weapons, often with shields. Also note the example is describing bow use, a weapon that will keep the character out of melee even after all movement is complete. 

In the description here, with the bow, I would allow it, but at a reduced movement; you are not simply moving towards your target, but keeping an eye on the target, drawing, aiming, loosing, repeat, thus your steps are more measured and deliberate.

Now I could be convinced to allow as you described with pointy weapons, such as spears, or stabbing with swords, but would probably reduce the charging characters ability to defend. Or perhaps even just ramming with a shield.

SDLeary

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On 11/23/2016 at 5:49 PM, styopa said:

The example on page 17 of the RQ2 book disagrees with you. (shrug)

1) it calls someone with Dex SR3 as "average dex"so that's what I was using.

2) it says EXPLICITLY that character will fire the first arrow on SR3, no sooner.

It states that he will fire it on his DEX SR, which might be SR3. 

Quote

3) a DEX SR 0 character could start moving immediately on Dex SR1 (3m), SR2 (+3m now at 6m), and on SR3 (pg15: if two combatants have the same SR, higher DEX goes first) - in this case, the charging guy has a much higher Dex and would arrive at 9m (29.5') and strike before the lower-dex guy would release the arrow.

No he wouldn't strike first. You are forgetting that you add the SIZ SR and weapon SR modfier to melee weapons. That puts the typical character's sword at around SR7- not DEX SR . It doesn't say that just because somebody moves they get to attack faster, just that they can , at the referees option, combine moment with another action- specifically preparing a bow.  There is nothing in the rules that say's the character gets to lower the SR of his melee attack by moving. 

 

Anda DEX SR 0 guy is not the typical swordman that I used as an example. He'd need a 19 or better DEX for DEX SR 0, which would limit the action to certain non-humans and humans who have magically augmented their DEX up to 19+. Neither being all that common.  

 

 

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12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It states that he will fire it on his DEX SR, which might be SR3. 

No he wouldn't strike first. You are forgetting that you add the SIZ SR and weapon SR modfier to melee weapons. That puts the typical character's sword at around SR7- not DEX SR . It doesn't say that just because somebody moves they get to attack faster, just that they can , at the referees option, combine moment with another action- specifically preparing a bow.  There is nothing in the rules that say's the character gets to lower the SR of his melee attack by moving. 

Anda DEX SR 0 guy is not the typical swordman that I used as an example. He'd need a 19 or better DEX for DEX SR 0, which would limit the action to certain non-humans and humans who have magically augmented their DEX up to 19+. Neither being all that common.  

You're simply wrong. 

I said 

FWIW in your 30' example, RAW RQ2 a high-dex character (Dex SR0) COULD close 29.5' (9m) to melee an average-dex archer with a ready arrow before that arrow could be loosed (SR3).  Considering the RQ2 text about combat SRs being used simultaneously for movement, then that DexSR 0 toon could be hitting that archer before he fired in RQ too.

Very specifically I was discussing a high Dex character,  vs an average Dex archer (sr3 per RQ2 example of average). 

And yes I said  COULD,  depending on if the dm allowed (per that discussion) the combination of movement and readying weapon for striking (as I would probably for a thrusting weapon like a long spear).  He /she could easily have a melee Sr total of  3 or less with a Dex Sr of  0 (say a long spear and decent siz). 

Object all you want,  it's certainly possible, RAW, not nearly the impossibility you suggested in your original example. 

Frankly,  despite your desperate attempt to explain it away,  all this exercise did was increase my respect for Perrin's sense of realism as IRL guidelines for police are that a knife wielder should be considered a potential deadly threat even if you have a gun if he's within...  30 feet. 

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