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13 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Personally I don't believe that this is the case, and as the 4th Age is a long way off I'm not going to look at it's effects on the Praxians (I'm only just starting to look at the years 0 to 35!).

I know: the 4th Age material in 'King of Sartar' is at best debatable. This will probably label me as a heretic, but I've always felt that the 4th Age framing device was the weakest aspect of the book.

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Some of you might be interested on the current work on the Prax book. I've been mainly working on the Praxian history section. You might think that we knew plenty about this kind of thing because of t

That's exactly what Im looking at. I've done the growth for each tribe though as they have different final populations. I want to know what the populations were at certain points in Gloranthan history

Here's the Grazing map for the Wastelands. It has all of the grasslands on it, including the 14 that weren't in the Guide (there had to be a cut off point or the Guide would have been more unwieldy).

Posted Images

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

As i've said elsewhere, I'm not going to mention stirrups in the Prax book - up to you what you want to do with them.

The Wastes are a magically supported ecosystem and so there is no real world example to support how this works. The Covenant is the magic support system and key to how the Wastelands work.

Fortunately we aren't using a real world model. The High Llama tribe is likely to become the dominant tribe after the Hero Wars, mainly due to Yazurkial Blue Llama's participation. Likewise the Growth rate of the Rhino says they are destined for greatness at this stage.

I think trying to use real world facts to explain Prax is pointless, like you say it exists because of the Covenant.

My pc's have kickstarted the Rhino fertility with a minor heroquest that made all their clan's Rhinos pregnant and full of vitality for the next year. I'm expecting them to do a bigger version once they realise the importance.

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Praxian History is certainly interesting, but unlike Dara Happa (Fortunate Succession)  or Orlanthi (History of the Heortling Peoples) I feel it needs to retain a sense of mystery as no one (including the nomads) really knows what is happening, or what happened out in the wastes, but conversely, they are in closer contact with their ancestors. I once tried to get a handle on how many Praxians should be able to claim descent from Waha! (required for being a Khan) and realised it was an interesting question (similar to how many descendants does the Red Emperor have). I imagined that the Rhino were a major tribe until the Second Age but Caylash Rhino led them too aggresively to fight their enemies and the tribe lost too many warriors. I'm not sure steady rate increase in population is how things would necessarily work for Prax, with its good years and bad years, plagues, chaos invasions, the shamanic war games featured in Nomad Gods. I'd be more inclined to think there are population crashes, booms and busts, following herd events, wicked writher events, Storm bull winds, and the like.

   

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4 hours ago, KeithN said:

I'm not sure steady rate increase in population is how things would necessarily work for Prax, with its good years and bad years, plagues, chaos invasions, the shamanic war games featured in Nomad Gods. I'd be more inclined to think there are population crashes, booms and busts, following herd events, wicked writher events, Storm bull winds, and the like.

You are absolutely right. As I said earlier, Im using the steady rate increase as a net figure of the population within the Wastes. It doesn't take into account any of your very accurate suggestions.

Likewise a lot of this won't go into the Prax book as it's small details. 

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19 hours ago, David Scott said:

As i've said elsewhere, I'm not going to mention stirrups in the Prax book - up to you what you want to do with them.

Wouldn't it be helpful to have some sort of mention of them? Because there's bound to be art which either shows stirrups or doesn't (probably a combination of both), and that will lead readers to ask questions. I can see why you wouldn't want to be too definitive about stirrups, but what Jeff said seems to make sense and I would have thought bears repeating in print.

 

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So moving on with the map. The next layer I said I was working was the fertility of the land. Basically this is showing where the best pasture is to the worst. My starting point is the worst - no grazing:

Screen Shot 2016-08-22 at 16.06.18.png

The brown areas show no grazing, the green, the grasslands shown in the guide and the black high areas that aren't grazed either. There are actually many more grasslands on Greg's maps and each has a measure of their usefulness/fertility. The very best grazing is only two areas - The Sacred Ground of the Paps (not shown) and the Erno Arkozal Grasslands in the centre of the Krjalki Bog. I'm going to give Prax a basic fertility value of 1, which means good grazing all year round. The two very best grazings will be 1.5 this lets me build a range based on Greg's info:

1.5 Best Grazing - Sacred Ground & Erno Arkozal Grasslands

1.25 Great Grazing - the Rest of the Eiritha Hills

1 Good Grazing - Prax & most of the grasslands in the Guide (on the above map)

0.5 Grazing good every other year

0.3 Grazing good every three years

0.25 Grazing good every four years

0 No grazing

 

I've not included the bogs on the Zola Fel as I believe these are a later development.

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3 hours ago, David Scott said:

So moving on with the map. The next layer I said I was working was the fertility of the land. Basically this is showing where the best pasture is to the worst. My starting point is the worst - no grazing:

Screen Shot 2016-08-22 at 16.06.18.png

.

As the Snow Line was further south prior to the Third Age (Lunar Kalikos Icebreaker climate change) might this mean that some areas of the Wastelands were a little wetter in the First and Second Age, and perhaps a very little more fertile?

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27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

As the Snow Line was further south prior to the Third Age (Lunar Kalikos Icebreaker climate change) might this mean that some areas of the Wastelands were a little wetter in the First and Second Age, and perhaps a very little more fertile?

That's an interesting question Martin. The fertility of the Earth itself is damaged, not that it doesn't get enough rain, although that does play a minor role. Here's the 1620 snow line. It's about 20 miles north of the Hillside Bison Secret grasslands. These grasslands were discovered in the First Age and according to Greg's map, good grazing. I would place the snow line up against the grassland in the First age.

Screen Shot 2016-08-22 at 20.15.15.png

 

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3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

That's an interesting question Martin. The fertility of the Earth itself is damaged, not that it doesn't get enough rain, although that does play a minor role. Here's the 1620 snow line. It's about 20 miles north of the Hillside Bison Secret grasslands. These grasslands were discovered in the First Age and according to Greg's map, good grazing. I would place the snow line up against the grassland in the First age.

 

Interesting. Different rainfall patterns would probably affect the limited vegetation available, even in such a devastated ecosystem, and as several Praxian beasts have distinct diets might impact their populations.

The shifted Snow Line would affect the territorial range of the Pentans and Animal Nomads, leading to a different pattern of clashed between them. The Hillside Bison Secret Grasslands would be appealing to southerly Pentans, if they knew of it.

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Here's the Grazing map for the Wastelands. It has all of the grasslands on it, including the 14 that weren't in the Guide (there had to be a cut off point or the Guide would have been more unwieldy). Some of the Guide places are actually Grasslands as well. The colours aren't perfect, but it's good enough to work with. The North and South Cactus deserts, Vultures Country and the Bleak Hills aren't marked on this map as they are all poor grazing. 

Screen Shot 2016-08-23 at 16.45.35.png

Next - The First Age.

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2 hours ago, David Scott said:

 

Screen Shot 2016-08-23 at 16.45.35.png

Next - The First Age.

Would it be relevant to show the Serpents? The Guide says that these seasonal rivers can be relied upon to appear every one to four years.

Whilst some beasts can derive water from what they graze, many can't? The serpents and rare oases are going to be even more critical resources than fodder.

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19 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Would it be relevant to show the Serpents? The Guide says that these seasonal rivers can be relied upon to appear every one to four years.

Whilst some beasts can derive water from what they graze, many can't? The serpents and rare oases are going to be even more critical resources than fodder.

Not really, I'm using it to to map the migrations. I already have  the framework, serpents are just another layer. I haven't needed to turn it on as it doesn't add anything to what I'm doing.

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5 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Not really, I'm using it to to map the migrations. I already have  the framework, serpents are just another layer. I haven't needed to turn it on as it doesn't add anything to what I'm doing.

Understood.

Apologies for being a pain, but the Guide historical maps show the Praxians confined to Prax and not being present in the Wastelands until around 400 ST, expanding northwards by 700 ST and further east by 900 ST, and only getting back into Prax around 1220 ST.

However, the Timeline states 830 – Wastelands: Giants and nomads defeated by Pavis at Too Tall Battle. City of Pavis founded. Praxian nomads enter Wastes.

And the Wastelands chapter says: In 830, the Hero named Pavis animated the Faceless Statue that sat atop the Throne in Dagori Inkarth. He allied with the Pure Horse People, and together Pavis, his army, and his statue marched to the old site of Robcradle. At the Too Tall Battle, Pavis defeated the giants and nomads, and crippled the god Waha. Pavis healed Waha to bring peace between Pavis and the nomads. That same year, Pavis founded the city that bears his name and resurrected ancient magics which antagonized sleeping giants and caused years of struggle. The giants lost and more foreigners came to Prax.

The Wastelands were inhabited only by Chaos creatures until Waha led many of his people beyond the Vultures Country after his shameful defeat by Pavis and the Faceless Statue. They found it to their liking, and since then the animal nomads have struggled to survive there, and succeeded well. From thence they have come to raid the civilizations and Pentans about them.

 

The text suggests that in the First Age, the Animal Nomads were living only in Prax, and for much of the Second Age as well. Obviously, there's a potential discrepancy between the text and the maps...? I have no idea which is correct.

 

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That's excactly what I'm going to look at. Also what exactly defines the wastes and who is telling what stories when about going where. The first age has praxians leaving Prax, and also heading into the wastes. Greg's text tells us which grasslands were found when. That's what I'm going to look at. Praxians were already in the wastes in the first age, the ostrich clan were found by fanzali. So yes it's a bit confused. Remember also that the histories are very Pavis-centric and the nomads have no written language. So the confusion is unsurprising. 

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16 hours ago, David Scott said:

That's excactly what I'm going to look at. Also what exactly defines the wastes and who is telling what stories when about going where. The first age has praxians leaving Prax, and also heading into the wastes. Greg's text tells us which grasslands were found when. That's what I'm going to look at. Praxians were already in the wastes in the first age, the ostrich clan were found by fanzali. So yes it's a bit confused. Remember also that the histories are very Pavis-centric and the nomads have no written language. So the confusion is unsurprising. 

 
The Guide tells us when some grasslands were discovered:
 
Ankori's Bison in Winter Grasslands: Ankori, a khan of the Elstorana dynasty rediscovered this ancient grassland during the Second Age migrations.
Arnstadle’s Own Grassland: This fertile grassland was found by the Sable Riders during the Second Age migrations.
Wahoranstol: This grassland stretches along most of the southern coast. It was explored only slightly by Waha, but was occupied by the First and Second Migrations.
Seven Picture Walls of Artash: The Seven Picture Walls were discovered by the Praxian hero Arnvish Artash during the Second Age migrations.
 
Unfortunately no dates are given for the First and Second Migrations and I wonder if Age is missing from the sentence?
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38 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The Guide tells us when some grasslands were discovered:

I have all of the original texts of the sections that went to make up the Wastes section of the guide. I also wrote quite a bit of it and still have the unedited materials. All of that should help me write this up.

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The First Migration started after 379.

The Second Migration after 620.

The Third Migration after 830.

However it's clear that these migrations may be specific individuals - like the First Migration references - Fanzali the Storm Bull & Oranstal the Sable. The Hillside Bison clan may have gone off at another time, returning to a lost home grazing of the Garden.

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The Rhino Tribe are definitely in major trouble.  On the up-side Rhinos can eat a lot of different plants for nutrition.  I could see a situation where the Rhinos set up in the Valley of Avalanches, where mountain run-off would create better grazing.  I can also see the Rhino Tribe worshipping Orlanth for his ability to bring rainfall.  Potentially we all know that Rhinos hit like a train, but they are a bit slower than other Prax beasts.  I suspect the Rhino tribe already subsists on a diet of other herd beasts rather than their own tribal stock. 

Potentially there is another answer though.  If the Rhinos were to move into the Pavis Rubble permanently they would have access to the Zola Fel, and could potentially thrash any other force in that enclosed space.  No matter how fast they are, even impalas can be trapped inside the walls.  And if their lances are long enough, they can even defeat Yelmalio Sarissas. Even trolls would look askanse at facing the Rhino Tribe.  Of course this will gradually lead to a potentially more sedentary and settled Rhino Tribe, less Praxian of necessity and potentially another Pavic ally.  I imagine them setting up in the Big Grazing or the Huntlands.  As tribe numbers recover, potentially they can spread out into Prax and Vulture Country again.

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32 minutes ago, Darius West said:

On the up-side Rhinos can eat a lot of different plants for nutrition.  I could see a situation where the Rhinos set up in the Valley of Avalanches, where mountain run-off would create better grazing.  I can also see the Rhino Tribe worshipping Orlanth for his ability to bring rainfall. 

Extra rainfall doesn't make any part of the Wastes more fertile. It's the Earth that is severely damaged, the only way of getting better grazing is to restore the fertility - like finding Tada's loincloth or finding a new land goddess. 

32 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I suspect the Rhino tribe already subsists on a diet of other herd beasts rather than their own tribal stock.

Most tribes do this, not just the rhinos. That is after they've eaten the spare bulls.

32 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Of course this will gradually lead to a potentially more sedentary and settled Rhino Tribe, less Praxian of necessity and potentially another Pavic ally.

Waha doesn't allow this, he set up raiding to keep the tribes on their toes. Becoming sedentary is not the Way of Waha.

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2 hours ago, David Scott said:

However it's clear that these migrations may be specific individuals - like the First Migration references - Fanzali the Storm Bull & Oranstal the Sable. The Hillside Bison clan may have gone off at another time, returning to a lost home grazing of the Garden.

That chimes with the mass migration after the events of 830.

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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Extra rainfall doesn't make any part of the Wastes more fertile. It's the Earth that is severely damaged, the only way of getting better grazing is to restore the fertility - like finding Tada's loincloth or finding a new land goddess. 

Waha doesn't allow this, he set up raiding to keep the tribes on their toes. Becoming sedentary is not the Way of Waha.

Rainfall has no effect on fertility?  None?  What about the fact that Rhinos need to drink then?  Personally I think magic potentially provides a huge edge, but there are basic laws of life that are pretty unalterable.  On the other hand I would definitely reduce the effectiveness of Orlanth's rain spells by half in the wastes as it is not his land.

As for Waha not allowing things... Tell that to Unicorn Tribe, the Zebra Tribe, and the Pol Joni.  Does Waha allow Sable Riders to go join the Antelope Lancers and follow the Lunar Way?  Or allow Storm Bulls to team up with Orlanthi via Uroxi middlemen?  I am sure Waha isn't overjoyed at how the Ostrich Tribes and the Unicorn Tribes have ties to the Yelm Pantheon either, or how there are Agimori and Basmoli wandering Prax.  Also, where do the Oasis people fit in things?  In short, I am sure that deities don't smite their worshippers for cutting deals with people who give them a survival edge.  If a few families devote themselves to another deity or spirit that benefits the tribe, nobody will care provided their first loyalty ultimately remains to the tribe, and the tribe's first loyalty remains to Waha's Pantheon.  It is a bit like having a shaman of thunderbird in the tribe.

I also remember a reference to Wind Khans of Orlanth at Pairing Stone. 

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54 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Rainfall has no effect on fertility?  None? 

In magic rich Glorantha, the death of a Land God (or Goddess, most seem to be Goddesses) has dire consequences. Prax and the Wastelands are the Gloranthan equivalent of Mad Max land. There are areas of limited fertility and water where lesser spirits survived. For that matter, the death of Genert is probably why the northern continent is so damaged compared with Pamaltela where the Land God survived.

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I'm loving these maps - thanks for posting them. I once tried to create a sort of Praxian Roulette game where you placed your herds on grazelands and got a payback if there was good grazing that year. I made different herds like different pasture types  - high (llamam), low (bison), wet (herdman), dry (impala) with Sable being mixed. I still think it could work, although i've not finished it. 

 

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Orlanth is worshipped for his movement magic in Prax and the Wastes.

As for water there are seasonal serpents, rain caches in rocky ground  oasis and the water in vegetation. Praxian herd beasts can go without water for far longer than Earth equivalents, and remember that at the end of the day it is really on their names that they have in common. These are totally different beasts.

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12 hours ago, Darius West said:

Rainfall has no effect on fertility?  None?  What about the fact that Rhinos need to drink then?

I said extra rain. Rain is of course needed by the plants of the Wastes to grow and there is enough for what plants are able to grow there, likewise for the herds. That doesn't mean it's easy to obtain.

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Personally I think magic potentially provides a huge edge, but there are basic laws of life that are pretty unalterable.  On the other hand I would definitely reduce the effectiveness of Orlanth's rain spells by half in the wastes as it is not his land.

Heler's rain reaches only Prax. The Praxians have only the Adventurous aspect of Uncle Orlanth, the Pol-Joni are unique in that they have access to his Storm aspect. Water comes from other sources, Dew Maid is popular and Storm Bull can release some rain in a nasty way though. Flash flooding is a serious problem.

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As for Waha not allowing things... Tell that to Unicorn Tribe, the Zebra Tribe, and the Pol Joni.  Does Waha allow Sable Riders to go join the Antelope Lancers and follow the Lunar Way?

Yes he does. They are all part of the Praxian Pantheon. look here: http://basicroleplaying.org/topic/4533-the-praxian-tradition/

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As for Waha not allowing things... Tell that to Unicorn Tribe, the Zebra Tribe, and the Pol Joni.  Does Waha allow Sable Riders to go join the Antelope Lancers and follow the Lunar Way?

Orlanth is his uncle, there are 15000 Praxian Orlanth/Vinga cultists, that includes about 150 Wind Khans. Of course he allows it.

12 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am sure Waha isn't overjoyed at how the Ostrich Tribes and the Unicorn Tribes have ties to the Yelm Pantheon either,

The Ostrich tribe is part of the Covenant, he negotiated there right to live in the Wastes. The Unicorns are original creatures from the Green Age of Genert's Garden and are sacred. Their human counterparts have allowed them to return and fulfil a special niche for women who can't follow the Way of Waha. Waha welcomes them both.

12 hours ago, Darius West said:

or how there are Agimori and Basmoli wandering Prax. 

The Agimori are in the Care of his Grandmother Ernalda. She helped them survive, cut off from home. She was kind and so is her grandson. The Basmoli are a defeated group, beaten by Tada in days of old. Waha uses them and they need Waha in their rituals to survive.

12 hours ago, Darius West said:

Also, where do the Oasis people fit in things?

Guardians of the Sacred waters of Prax. They provide food that the nomads cannot grow and can be enslaved and dominated.

12 hours ago, Darius West said:

In short, I am sure that deities don't smite their worshippers for cutting deals with people who give them a survival edge.  If a few families devote themselves to another deity or spirit that benefits the tribe, nobody will care provided their first loyalty ultimately remains to the tribe, and the tribe's first loyalty remains to Waha's Pantheon. 

As I said, they are all part of the Praxian pantheon.

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It is a bit like having a shaman of thunderbird in the tribe.

Thunderbird is one of the spirits attached to Orlanth society of the Praxians (he's actually Orlanth's missing thunder aspect for the Praxians). They don't normally have their own shaman (as it's Orlanth). Lots of nomads have access to his magics.

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I also remember a reference to Wind Khans of Orlanth at Pairing Stone.

Yes in addition to the Praxian Wind Khans, there are of course Orlanthi who worship there from the Zola Fel valley.

Edited by David Scott
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