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New design notes - Sorcery!


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All spells themselves are noun+verb (Rune(s)+Technique(s). However, you can't cast impromptu magic in RQ. You can create new spells, but that takes time. 

As for how you master a Rune or Technique for purposes of sorcery, originally each was going to be a skill, but in play that was tedious and added nothing to the experience. Now you just need to spend a season and try to make your INT+POWx1 (potentially modified by ceremony, which can add a lot of additional time. The number of Runes and Techniques you can master is limited by your INT. You need to have an INT of 13 to master one Rune and one Technique. For each additional point of INT, a sorcerer can know one more. Thus to master all the Techniques, you need to have an INT of at least 18 (and you will have mastered only one Rune).

So in practice, sorcerers tend to have very high INT, master two or three Techniques (either Tap or Command as a base), and two or three Runes maximum. This gives them very flexible magic, but also requires that they "specialize" in types of spells. If Damastol (INT 17) masters Command, Tap, Dispel, Truth, and Fire, we can have a pretty good idea of the spells he can do cost-effectively. But he also might want to learn a few spells that are more magic point expensive, but really useful for him.

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2 minutes ago, davecake said:

The problem is not so much about the mechanics matching to me (though, FWIW, I think mechanics that worked more like HQ-G would work fine, and probably better), its that they describe fundamentally different worlds. In one, sorcerers study Runes, in the other, sorcerers study grimoires. 

What are grimoires ultimately? Manifestations of Runes? (quick burn that man at a stake!!)

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Grimoires work just fine for narrating sorcery in HQ. HQG sorcery characters and RQ sorcery characters "feel" intellectual and philosophical who are trying to logically understand and code magic. The mechanics for it vary greatly depending on the system - just as how a sword fight gets handled in HQ is completely different from how it gets handled in RQ.

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40 minutes ago, jongjom said:

What are grimoires ultimately? Manifestations of Runes? (quick burn that man at a stake!!)

A grimoire is a "book" thematically tied to a Rune that contains various formulae that function as spells to overcome obstacles. It is very abstract, as befits the HeroQuest system - just as Rune magic in HQ lets you use one of your personal runes "to do stuff like your god does".

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52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

So in practice, sorcerers tend to have very high INT, master two or three Techniques (either Tap or Command as a base), and two or three Runes maximum. This gives them very flexible magic, but also requires that they "specialize" in types of spells. If Damastol (INT 17) masters Command, Tap, Dispel, Truth, and Fire, we can have a pretty good idea of the spells he can do cost-effectively. But he also might want to learn a few spells that are more magic point expensive, but really useful for him.

So how does the 'each spell is a skill' part come in? Does this mean a sorcerer may be able to cast many spells, but will probably be basically terrible at many of them?

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And I'm sure we aren't going to convince one another Jeff, but to me, there is still a difference. In HeroQuest and RuneQuest for a theist, the fundamental limit of trying a magic effect remains 'is this something my god can do with this Rune', for an animist 'can a spirit in my tradition do this'. I can easily handwave away the issues of how many rune points, magic points, skills levels, attributes of the spirit, and come up with more or less the same answers. 

But the difference between 'is this spell in the Master of the Faceless King grimoire' and 'is this doable with Stasis or Harmony runes' are quite different questions. A character in one game can not do some things that a character in the other may be able to. It breaks the abstraction. Add to that that HeroQuest sorcery is deliberately treated in a less abstract way than other HeroQuest attributes (in that you can't stretch, etc) and its hard to maintain the idea that the two systems represent the same thing. Handwaving has its limits. 

It wouldn't even be that hard to turn HeroQuest Sorcery into the same system as RQ - at a first guess, keep track of which Runes and Techniques had been mastered by the sorcerer, base all sorcery ability off the characters Law rune or an appropriate keyword (which tends to happen anyway) and reduce grimoires to books full of spells that you can learn if you know the runes. It would at least then feel like the same system. 

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Sorcerers tend to cast spells they have just learned very slowly, using the ceremony and time/location/component bonuses to improve their chances of spell casting. For folk wanting to cast "combat spells" those time/location/component bonuses are going to matter tremendously. Damastol the Fire Sorcerer will be much better at casting Conflaguration on Fire Day in Fire Season than on Waterday of Sea Season. He'll probably insist on carrying around a lit lantern or carry a magical fire crystal.

So Damastol, who starts with Conflaguration at 60% (starting at 20%, plus putting one of his four 25% options in the spell, plus his Magic bonus), is pretty good with the spell. He gets to add +D10% for having his torch or lantern handy. f he personally has the Fire Rune, he might try to augment with that Rune. He's going to have a good chance of summoning a big fire at a place within the range of the spell. I

But if Damastol then tries to learn Reveal Rune and starts at 20% (1D6+ Magic bonus), he's going to almost always want to augment using ceremonial magic. So he might perform long lengthy rituals to identify a particular Rune. Or go out of his way to cast the spell on Truth Week, while carrying a "Y" shaped staff.

 

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A few questions:
-Do Range and Duration grow exponentially, like in RQ3 ?
-You say Intensity is limited by Free INT, but what about Range and Duration ?
-Do MP matrices and crystals still exist in the new RQ ?

Depending on the answers to those questions, Sorcery can be very powerful.

Edited by Mugen
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3 hours ago, goldenwheeldancer said:

Is that art from the book? It is very atmospheric!

That art looks like it's from the Fronela chapter of the G2G...they are immortal Brithini Wizards (note the blue skin) at the Red Gates of the Brass Citadel, the elite walled district within Sog City.

Edited by Mankcam
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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 He gets to add +D10%

(...)

1D6+ Magic bonus

 

Why rolling dice ? Why not plain +n% ? What does it really bring rolling dice in term of MGF ? Moreover for a few % It slows down the game and I'm always for simplification whenever possible.

 

That said, I always have been reluctant to the diverse sorcery systems, incl. in HQ, but this one is the first one which seems easy to understand and to play, to me at least.

My only concern are the timely bonusses, which oblige to book keep a game calendar. I'm afraid most players, incl. GMs, won't. (Players : " We want to go from that place to that one, how many days it takes exactly?" GM: "how, let me have a look at the map a calculate it. Let me look in my notes which we are today. How is the weather ? And there is a small part of moutain track. How fast are your mounts ? Mmh, let's say you come on Clayday ". Sorcerer Player: "what ? But I masterize the Water Rune ! Let's clacuate it again to see if we come one day before to get my bonus".) I found it always a big pain for Lunar Magic. Did you consider only seasons and weeks ? This is easy to manage during a game. Anyway, if see seasons give element bonus (e.g. Sea), you don't need the days as well (e.g. Water).

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Wind on the Steppes, role playing among the steppe Nomads. The  running campaign and the blog

 

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I don't really understand the following: "four of the six Techniques are arranged as two sets of polarities; the other two, Command and Tap, are implied in all other techniques. Knowledge of one technique provides insight into its opposite. A character can cast spells using the opposite technique to one they have mastered at double the magic point cost. Thus a character who has mastered Summon can cast Dismiss spells at twice the magic point cost. Note that every technique provides insight into Command and Tap - and vice versa."

Does that mean if I know Combine that I can use Separate, Command and Tap as well but only through paying double Magic Points? 

Relatedly, the Intensity of a spell is equal to the number of Magic Points in it so if I'm spending double Magic Points to cast a spell does that mean the Intensity is equal to the number of MPs I actually spent or half the number of Magic Points?

So, if I am understanding correctly. Every spell is a skill that must be learned and improved separately. You can only learn/cast a spell that has a technique+rune that you know. However if you know, for example, Command you also know all the other techniques but must spend double Magic Points to cast spells that use them. You can learn a combined number of runes plus techniques equal to your INT-12. You can learn a number of spells equal to your INT but only that subset of spells which you have a rune+technique match with.

It's certainly not what I expected. Reminds me of D&D/Vancian style magic where a very specific thing done in a very specific way leads to a very specific outcome or none at all. It would be interesting to see a couple of spell descriptions. Sorcery in RQ3 and beyond has largely been an effects-based system while this seems not to be. E.g. Smother had a specified effect but a load of different ways of skinning it depending on the sorcerer's background. 

Finally. +1d10%? Really? It sounds like the 80s is back and RQ is going to revert to RQ3 style augment hunting. A 5% here, a 5% there, a d10% here a minus d6% there. Right you have +13% to your skill. Oh, can I get another +5% from this? Yes, I forgot about that but that reminds me that because your finangle is dooded that you have an extra minus -1d10. Roll. Fail. Damn. Oh, hang on a second, I forgot about the Miggeldypoon that should have given me +10%. What was your skill? What did you roll? Um, no, you still failed. Or my favourite question as a GM in the 80s. Is that a special?

Edited by deleriad
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Another thing that I'd like ask is about the culture of Sorcery, as it's always been something I couldn't quite get. Is Sorcery really the domain of the Western culture and the God Learners? I mean, is it sort of exclusive to that culture or more widespread? Following on, in a typical game, is it the sort of thing that PCs would use - or are they more likely to stick with Spirit Magic and Theism? How is a mixed culture group of adventures meant to come together?

Actually, while I'm at it - ditto about Illumination and the Moon Empire?

 

Edited by TrippyHippy
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41 minutes ago, Zit said:

Why rolling dice ? Why not plain +n% ? What does it really bring rolling dice in term of MGF ? Moreover for a few % It slows down the game and I'm always for simplification whenever possible.

 

That said, I always have been reluctant to the diverse sorcery systems, incl. in HQ, but this one is the first one which seems easy to understand and to play, to me at least.

My only concern are the timely bonusses, which oblige to book keep a game calendar. I'm afraid most players, incl. GMs, won't. (Players : " We want to go from that place to that one, how many days it takes exactly?" GM: "how, let me have a look at the map a calculate it. Let me look in my notes which we are today. How is the weather ? And there is a small part of moutain track. How fast are your mounts ? Mmh, let's say you come on Clayday ". Sorcerer Player: "what ? But I masterize the Water Rune ! Let's clacuate it again to see if we come one day before to get my bonus".) I found it always a big pain for Lunar Magic. Did you consider only seasons and weeks ? This is easy to manage during a game. Anyway, if see seasons give element bonus (e.g. Sea), you don't need the days as well (e.g. Water).

If you are playing a Lunar you need to know the day of the week. For initiates of a cult, you need to know when your next holy day is. Greg, David, and myself - we've always kept a game calendar. Heck, why do you think calendars are present in so many Gloranthan supplements?

I for one don't mind a rolling dice to have some variable bonuses.

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It would be great to have a go with the rules before the final manuscript is sent to the printers.

Hopefully the Kickstarter will allow so kind of feedback on the game, and not just crowdsourcing errata.

Failing that it would be good to know that the sorcery rules were tried out on groups more than an arms length from the design team.

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Yes. But it is also deliberately not being tested using people who have strong preconceived notions what they want or don't want to see in a sorcery rules (or any other rules). Just people who want to play with it and give me objective feedback (such as "hey we found that the sorcerer's ability to cause damage in combat was way greater/way less than anyone else in the party - even though she specialized in combat magic").

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"Finally, sorcerers get bonuses or penalties for casting magic on Rune appropriate days, weeks, and seasons, and bonuses for casting spells in Rune appropriate places or using Rune appropriate components. Maintaining the ancient Brithini caste restrictions provide bonuses to a sorcerer's Free Int."

This links to the setting, and sounds cool.

Question to ponder - is maintaining the ancient Brithini Caste restrictions all or nothing?

This has implications for whether the reduced form practiced in the West has real magical meaning, or is just a cultural relic of "what great magicians should do".

I can see arguments either way.  A pure binary system:

- Explains why the Brithini are so determined to avoid pollution.  And it is easy to document, and avoids awkward cases (how about the men-of-all?).

- Gives little incentive for players to maintain restriction.

Possibly a 3 tier system.  Pure, Lesser and None?  Is Lesser an absolute standard, or following the tenets of your "School"?

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I will have to see how it plays out. One thing I am curious about is why 'Tap' when 'Separate' is also used? The general definition of the word 'separate' seems like 'tap' would be a redundancy technique having the same functional meaning. Also, not a fan of spells using a skill percentage for each spell when the new sorcery looks like it is be how skillful a sorcerer is with their technique knowledge and knowledge of runes. Isn't that also redundant? Get skilled in application of techniques and knowledge of a rune then ALSO have to get skilled again in each spell? Would rather have seen the sorcerer get skilled in their techniques and runes then have a modifier on applying those techniques when attempting to cast a spell. More along the lines of a singer training their voice and lungs then applying that knowledge to a new song style.

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5 hours ago, goldenwheeldancer said:

Is that art from the book? It is very atmospheric!

 

2 hours ago, Mankcam said:

That art looks like it's from the Fronela chapter of the G2G...they are immortal Brithini Wizards (note the blue skin) at the Red Gates of the Brass Citadel, the elite walled district within Sog City.

Yes, that's where I got the pic to go with the post.

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Tap transforms a Rune into energy (ie magic points). It is a fantastically useful way to recharge your magic points or even temporarily give you more magic points than your POW permits. So frex, if you Steal Breath (Tep+Air), you convert 3 cubic meters of air into 1D6 magic points per round. For each 2 points of strength added to the spell, another 3 cubic meters of air is converted into 1D6 more magic points. And yes, you can potentially asphyxiate someone with this, while gaining magic points.

Separate removes one Rune from another. One healing spell temporarily separates Death from Man and restores a damaged body to its original condition.

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33 minutes ago, Dominic said:

"Finally, sorcerers get bonuses or penalties for casting magic on Rune appropriate days, weeks, and seasons, and bonuses for casting spells in Rune appropriate places or using Rune appropriate components. Maintaining the ancient Brithini caste restrictions provide bonuses to a sorcerer's Free Int."

This links to the setting, and sounds cool.

Question to ponder - is maintaining the ancient Brithini Caste restrictions all or nothing?

This has implications for whether the reduced form practiced in the West has real magical meaning, or is just a cultural relic of "what great magicians should do".

I can see arguments either way.  A pure binary system:

- Explains why the Brithini are so determined to avoid pollution.  And it is easy to document, and avoids awkward cases (how about the men-of-all?).

- Gives little incentive for players to maintain restriction.

Possibly a 3 tier system.  Pure, Lesser and None?  Is Lesser an absolute standard, or following the tenets of your "School"?

Although this is not in the book, the Brithini practice a many tier system. For every caste restriction they maintain, they get a bonus to their Free Int. Each time they violate one, they forever lose one point. And forever is a very long time for the Brithini.

The Rokari are trying to recreate the Brithini system by adopting their restrictions and thus gaining additional Free INT. But again, violate the taboo, and you forever lose the bonus.

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yes. But it is also deliberately not being tested using people who have strong preconceived notions what they want or don't want to see in a sorcery rules (or any other rules). Just people who want to play with it and give me objective feedback (such as "hey we found that the sorcerer's ability to cause damage in combat was way greater/way less than anyone else in the party - even though she specialized in combat magic").

That's good. It was to say that the more you are not connected to the people the less bias is involved. If they hardly know you or the game then that's good, as that should hopefully remove even sub-conscious bias.

Out in the target gaming population will sorcery (and the game) be easy to understand and use, fun to play, and make intuitive sense?  Does it pass the acid test of typical gamers playing it? I appreciate this is a challenging Holy Grail but I hope that's what will be achieved.

Edited by jongjom
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I'd say that was par for the course. RQ/RQ2 didn't really match up with the world and magic presented in White Bear & Red Moon (no legions of spellcasters joining together to cast powerful spells); HeroQuest didn't really match up with the world and magic presented in RQ (no spells such as bladesharp or fireblade); and I won't even go into MRQ Glorantha. 

 

 

 

 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I'd say that was par for the course. RQ/RQ2 didn't really match up with the world and magic presented in White Bear & Red Moon (no legions of spellcasters joining together to cast powerful spells); HeroQuest didn't really match up with the world and magic presented in RQ (no spells such as bladesharp or fireblade); and I won't even go into MRQ Glorantha. 

 

 

 

 

I think that is inevitable anytime you translate something into another medium (like from book to film or film to tv series). Different rules systems are very different media and deal with very different things. What matters is keeping the essential elements (and deciding what are the essential elements).

Jeff

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