Communities as Keyword

[Zit]

I understand the Communities as keywords. Am I right ? Is it possible to have a contact as a break-out of a community ?

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Zit said:

Is it possible to have a contact as a break-out of a community ?

Definitely!

One of the heroes in my Sartar campaign has the following community keyword and breakouts:

Orlmarth Clan 13

Friend to Sora Goodseller +1

Friend of the Ash Creek Lady +1

Relationship with Joseph Greenbeak +1

Foe of Lunar Witch Oheha +1

Vow to the Wyter +2

 

Another has:

Orlmarth Clan 16

Praise to the Clouds, Rain to the Ground +1

 

In my Nochet campaign, several of the heroes have:

House Lorionaeo 13

Friendship with trolls +1

Mists over Waters charm +1

 

However, many have no breakouts or choose to make contacts an independent ability altogether.  It's as flexible as any other keyword as to what you want to use and emphasize.

[Corvantir]

I have read again the "Create a Hero As-You-Go" rules in HQ: Glorantha and I would rather say that your Character's Community is an Ability and not a Keyword. Thus, it can't have a breakout ability.

But as a Game Master, if you think it better suits your game, there is nothing stopping you from declaring that a Character's Community is a Keyword. As a player there is also nothing stopping you from suggesting this same thing to your Game Master. As far as I am concerned, I like this.  

Edited September 2, 2016 by Corvantir

[jajagappa]

44 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

I would rather say that your Character's Community is an Ability

I'd say your interpretation is correct based on HQG p.39 "You start with an ability that details your relationship to a community. This relationship starts at 13."

However, I'm quite comfortable with it as a keyword for those players who wish to branch abilities off of it as long as those are pertinent to and related to the community.

[Zit]

on the other hand, the section "Your Community" p. 39 seems to belong to the chapter "Keywords", which header seems to be bigger, while the header "your community"  has the same size than "your cultural Keyword" and "your occupational keyword". It not very clear. And the Community section is between Cultural KW and Occupational KW. So I would tend to consider that it is a keyword according to the rules themselves.

[Christoph Kohring]

On 29/08/2016 at 6:56 PM, Zit said:

I understand the Communities as keywords. Am I right ? Is it possible to have a contact as a break-out of a community ?

In S:KoH as well as in P:GtA your character did indeed have a Community keyword. Sadly not so anymore in HQ:G where the HW:RiG/ HQ:RiG concept of a Culture keyword was reintroduced & where you only have a Community ability.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Christoph Kohring

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Christoph Kohring said:

Sadly not so anymore in HQ:G where the HW:RiG/ HQ:RiG concept of a Culture keyword was reintroduced & where you only have a Community ability.

At the end of the day, the GM has full discretion over which they use, or even whether there is any need to explicitly differentiate.

[Christoph Kohring]

No kidding?!! Wasn't it Gary Gygax in the DMG who had something to say on this very topic?!? It's not only YGWV but YHQ:GWV also, right?!!

[soltakss]

I play that everything is a keyword. It just makes more sense to me.

[Christoph Kohring]

On 08/09/2016 at 8:49 PM, soltakss said:

I play that everything is a keyword. It just makes more sense to me.

Everything is a keyword except for breakout abilities. Elegant... why not? Makes sense indeed!?!

[Christoph Kohring]

On 9/5/2016 at 7:43 PM, Christoph Kohring said:

In S:KoH as well as in P:GtA your character did indeed have a Community keyword. Sadly not so anymore in HQ:G where the HW:RiG/ HQ:RiG concept of a Culture keyword was reintroduced & where you only have a Community ability.

I didn't like Cultural Keywords both in HW:RiG as well as in HQ:RiG & was overjoyed when they were replaced by just Community Keywords in S:KoH & P:GtA. After all, if you are a member of the Orlmarth clan then you also belong to the Colymar tribe as well as the Sartar Kingdom, you are from Dragon Pass in Genertela & you are a Heortling Wareran human. Thus a Community Keywords includes cultural "trappings" very neatly & elegantly as well. Are there exceptions to the previous? Yes, but they are very few & in between. An Orlmarthing huscarl could of course come from Esrolia, the Tarsh Exiles or Prax, for example or be a Duck, a Minotaur or a Dragonewt.

Besides, who ever increased his Heortling Cultural Keyword?!? Whereas it makes perfect sense to increase one's Community Keyword to improve, say, one's standing in the community...

Let's see how would it work for the sample characters from The Coming Storm: The Red Cow Volume I who are, after all, all members of the Red Cow clan:

THE VENGEFUL HUNTER
Hero Name: Olend Many-Moods
Community: Red Cow Clan 13
Hate Dinacoli +1

THE RATTLE-BORN WARRIOR
Hero Name: Londrol Spear-Rattler
Community: Red Cow Clan 13
Hate Dinacoli +1
Housecarl to Kangharl Black-Brow +1
Member of the Tormakting Bloodline +1

THE FEARLESS HEALER 
Hero Name: Maklami Friend of Heroes
Community: Red Cow Clan 20 
Adopted Daughter of Broddi Strong-Kin +1
Fine jewelry, clothes, and cosmetics +1
Follower of Enastara the Red +1

THE HONORABLE THANE 
Hero Name: Rastalulf the Tall
Community: Red Cow Clan 13
Rival to Kangharl Black-Brow +1
Loyalty to Enerin Bristle-Beard +1

THE LAUGHING MERCENARY 
Hero Name: Barbessa Laugh-Much
Community: Red Cow Clan 13
Follower of Orstalor Spearlord +1
Follower of Borngold Many-Brothers +1

THE HARD-BITTEN CATTLE RAIDER
Hero Name: Koschei the Weary
Community: Red Cow Clan 13
Sworn Man to Kangharl Black-Brow +1
Member of the Tormakting bloodline +1

And how does it work for the sample characters in HQ:G? Here we go:

THE AMBITIOUS NOBLE
Hero Name: Samastina Delaeos
Community: Member of House Delaeos 13

THE PROUD THANE
Hero Name: Vargast the Thunderer
Community: Exile from the Orlmarth clan 13

THE VENGEFUL MERCENARY
Hero Name: Karganvale
Community: Exile from the Orlmarth clan 13

THE ENERGETIC PRAXIAN SPIRIT-TALKER
Hero Name: Herrox
Community: Member of the Blue Llama clan 13

THE CURIOUS SCRIBE
Hero Name: Orensulva
Community: Member of Nochet Temple of Knowledge 13

THE SINISTER SORCERER
Hero Name: Magatheus
Community: Outlaw from Lunar College of Magic retainer to House Delaeos 13

Edited August 21, 2019 by Christoph Kohring

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Christoph Kohring said:

And how does it work for the sample characters in HQ:G?

For those that are simply "Member of...", I'd simply take those as keywords with no breakouts. 

For the two exiles, you could approach it in a couple ways, but what I'd likely suggest if they were in my game would be:

Community: Orlmarth Clan 13

Flaw: Exiled from clan 13

For Magatheus, while you could include two communities, given the outlawed status, I might do this:

Community: retainer of House Delaeos 13

Flaw: Outlawed from Lunar College of Magic (and it seems like it might warrant being the primary or secondary flaw with rating accordingly)

But otherwise, those work perfectly fine as starting characters that could be expanded further in a game.

[Christoph Kohring]

Magatheus the Sinister Sorcerer already has the Flaw Outlawed by the Lunar College of Magic at 6W (cf. HQ:G p. 55) whereas Vargast the Thunderer has Hunted by the Lunar Empire 12W as a flaw (HQ:G p. 53). (Karganvale may very well not be technically outlawed: she just followed her boss & kinsman Vargast in exile... )

Slightly corrected:

THE PROUD THANE
Hero Name: Vargast the Thunderer
Community: Outlaw from the Orlmarth clan 13

THE VENGEFUL MERCENARY
Hero Name: Karganvale
Community: Exile from the Orlmarth clan 13

THE SINISTER SORCERER
Hero Name: Magatheus
Community: Retainer to House Delaeos (originally from Furthest in Tarsh) 13
Flaw: Outlawed by the Lunar College of Magic 6W

What is funny is that -except for Samastina- Vargast, Karganvale, Herrox, Orensulva & Magatheus should in fact all have:

Community: Retainer to House Delaeos 13

Glorantha Wiki got it right!

Edited September 17, 2016 by Christoph Kohring

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Christoph Kohring said:

Vargast, Karganvale, Herrox, Orensulva & Magatheus should all have:

Community: Retainer to House Delaeos 13

Unless they are purely hired mercenaries (which certainly occur in Esrolia), then yes, I'd have all the players that to their character sheet as the first session gets underway.

The rest as you note would make sense.

[JonL]

On 9/15/2016 at 3:57 PM, Christoph Kohring said:

Everything is a keyword except for breakout abilities. Elegant... why not? Makes sense indeed!?!

If you're using Umbrella Keywords (HQ:G default)  instead of Keywords as Packages (HW/HQ1-style, option in HQ2) there doesn't need to be any difference. Functionally speaking, Abilities become Keywords when you hang breakouts from them. The distinction is mostly relevant for advancement purposes, cases of more specific abilities being privileged vs broader ones, and being more or less likely to have stretch penalties or right-tool-for-the-job bonuses.  

 

In that vein, I could also see Communities themselves having breakouts under their Resources representing particular assets or personel. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by JonL

[jajagappa]

On 11/1/2016 at 11:36 AM, JonL said:

I could also see Communities themselves having breakouts under their Resources

Yes, already have that in my game.

For instance, one of the heroes in my Nochet game, Kalavan the Clever has:

Resident of Nochet 13

- Know the Seamy Underbelly of the Noble Houses +1

Community: House Lorionaeo 13

- Friendship with Trolls +1

- Mists over Waters charm +1

 

(Unless you were specifically talking about Communities as an independent unit???)

Edited November 3, 2016 by jajagappa

[JonL]

On 11/2/2016 at 7:15 PM, jajagappa said:

(Unless you were specifically talking about Communities as an independent unit???)

Yes, although I agree with characters having breakouts under Communities where appropriate too.

 

Here's the example clan from HQ:G re-done with slightly lower base values and added breakouts:

Varmandi Clan
This small clan of the Colymar Tribe in Sartar is
notorious for their bitter feuds with their neighbors
in the Malani Tribe, and their violent responses to
any affront. The Varmandi are feared as bandits,
mercenaries, and killers, but are also traditionalist
and pious Orlanth worshipers.
Communication 11: The Varmandi have a poor
reputation throughout Sartar as bandits and killers.

--Vendettas Feared +2

--Respected for their Piety +1

Magic 8W: The Varmandi are punctilious in
their observation of religious rites to the Orlanthi
gods and worship their heroic Founder at his grave
beneath Vengeance Oak.

--Varmand the Unforgiving Hero Cult +2

Morale 18: The Varmandi are divided between a
more aggressively warlike faction and a faction that
fears the clan is too weak to continue fighting.

War 11W: The Varmandi are feared for their
military prowess and their skill at ambushing larger
enemies and defeating them.

--Bushwhackers +2

Wealth 15: The Varmandi are not wealthy, but
have surplus war booty from previous raids.

--The Victor's Spoils +4

 

I just went with what was in the description, but you could also have breakouts for prominent NPC Ring members, specific treasures or artifacts, oaths, grudges, alliances, and so on. Such break-outs could also possibly benefit from specific-ability priviledge or just-the-right-thing augmentation when communities are in conflict.

Edited January 4, 2017 by JonL

[Ian Cooper]

I certainly tend to treat the community as a keyword and the relationships with community members etc. as breakout abilities. Sometimes it makes sense to just elevate an ability to a keyword because we want to track some related items under it.

[JonL]

We kind of alluded to it above, but I really think that "Any Ability could become a Keyword if you hang an appropriate Breakout Ability from it." is a natural outgrowth of using umbrella-style Keywords. The prohibition against intra-keyword augments is disincentive enough to discourage over-loading them, IMO.

I wonder if one might do Flaws as penalty breakouts, representing a weakness relating specifically to that Keyword.  Perhaps do hanging something like: "BreakoutFlaw" -(KeywordRating/5) 

Edited January 5, 2017 by JonL

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, JonL said:

The prohibition against intra-keyword augments is disincentive enough to discourage over-loading them, IMO

Yes, this is a very important rule, particularly with runes.  And I like a player having to choose whether to create as a separate ability at 13 with lots of flexibility or as a breakout that gains the base keyword value, but creates that augment limit.

[Ian Cooper]

On 05/01/2017 at 6:47 PM, JonL said:

I wonder if one might do Flaws as penalty breakouts, representing a weakness relating specifically to that Keyword.  Perhaps do hanging something like: "BreakoutFlaw" -(KeywordRating/5) 

Given the suggestions that a divine Rune affinity can be used as a flaw, I would offer that nearly any keyword should be co-optable as a flaw by a GM if they feel that it covers certain behaviors. That is another ability/keyword trade-off, make it broad enough and it could be used as a flaw.

[JonL]

It also strikes me that Stretches can fill this space as well.

[creativehum]

On 11/1/2016 at 8:36 AM, JonL said:

Umbrella Keywords (HQ:G default)  instead of Keywords as Packages (HW/HQ1-style, option in HQ2)...

Hello,

This is off-topic, but could you defined the differences between these two concepts for me. In my head they blurred over the years to be the same thing. But clearly they are different.

[JonL]

15 hours ago, creativehum said:

Hello,

This is off-topic, but could you defined the differences between these two concepts for me. In my head they blurred over the years to be the same thing. But clearly they are different.

Umbrella-style doesn't worry about enumerating everything that the Keyword might encompass, it just counts on Player & GM to understand for what it's applicable vs what would be a Stretch and uses breakouts to enumerate particular areas of effectiveness/focus, like so:

Hunter of the Great Forest 17

-- Keen-Eyed Archer +1

--Relentless tracker +2

Package-style enumerates a specific list of abilities it encompasses. The awesome Dark Ages HeroQuest wiki has many examples, such as this one:

Hunter

 

Appropriate Cultures: Brythonic, Germanic, Irish, Pictish.

Abilities: Archery or Throw Javelin, Butcher, Dodge, Hide, [Hunting Style], Keen Senses, Know Animals, Know Local Area, Retrace Path, Skirmish Combat, Track, Wilderness Survival.

Typical Personality Traits: Patient, Solitary, Wily.

Typical Relationships: to Family, to Hunting Band.

Typical Followers: Pair of helpers or pack of hunting dogs or single sidekick dog.

Standard of Living: Minimal.

Typical Equipment: Javelins or bow and arrows, traps, survival gear, spoils of the hunt.

In this example, you can use your "Hunter" keyword for anything on the "Abilities" list, while using it for things outside those would likely be a Stretch. The "Typical"  sections provide guidance on selecting other Abilities.

 

[creativehum]

Thanks!

While I can appreciate the value and ease of the Umbrella-style (a lot less work, for one thing!) I have to say that there is a solid value for the Package-style. With the package style anyone new to a unique setting can get a grasp of the setting though the defining of (for example) Homeland, Profession through the quick-sketch details found under the Keyword.

When I read Hero Wars years ago (my first foray into Glorantha) I read the Keywords for the Heortlings and thought, "Okay. Got it" from scanning down the lists under the Keywords. Whereas when I read the descriptions of Heortling Keywords in HeroQuest: Glorantha I'm pretty much left on my own to read a lot of material as potential player of a Heortling to nail down the concept of that kind of character. And the same with Occupation Keywords (though obviously with more to go on than Heortlings.) 

If I hand players a list of Package-style Keywords to work from, by the time they've made their selections they already have more of an understanding of the unique and alien world than they would if I set there read pages of text at them to get them to understand it. (At least in my experience.)