The Chaosium's BRP Size Table and Superworld

[seneschal]

What is the correct SIZ of the Crimson Bat?

The blind Japanese swordswoman?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimson_Bat

http://www.girlswithguns.org/long/crimsonbat.htm

I dunno. She looks all of 5'2" to me. SIZ 7?

Oh! Were you referring to a Gloranthan entitiy?

http://www.herowars.com/library/religions/cult-bat.html

Brrrrr! Gives a new twist to the term, "Batman"! Kills people, takes their stuff. Hey!

Or perhaps, The Devil Bat? (Bela Lugosi, the sultan of sinister!)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032390/

I'd say it looks about the SIZ of a conventional condor.

If you mean the Gloranthan terror beast, we actually have some comparative data to go on since the kind folks of Kaijuphile.com and The Monster Archives have provided us with tonnage estimates for similar beasts.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/rodansroost/kaijustats/kaijustats.shtml

http://monsterarchives.proboards.com/index.cgi?

According to the experts, the giant pteranadon Rodan is 15,000 metric tons/16,500 tons. Gamera's recurrent foe Gyaos, an extremely bat-like "bird" that drinks blood, is estimated at 75 metric tons/25 tons. I'm using the stats for the Showa (original) series versions, just for consistency.

[icebrand]

According to elder secrets, it has:

STR 340

CON 1200 [MUNCHKIN STAT!]

SIZ 204

INT 13

DEX 20 [DEX 20? WTF!]

it also has tons of out-of-the-rules attacks and %'s so high that preety much say "you cannot ever hope to defeat this, no matter what you do or who you are" thus making the stats themselves irrelevant.

By the way, on Dorastor it says that Ralzakark is almost as powerful as the red goddess. Since he has no cult, it must mean personal power; this means that the bat can wipe out every god out there in a couple of rounds.

PS: The crimson bat is VERY poorly stated.

[seneschal]

By comparison, based on mass, Rodan would be SIZ 262 or 263. Gyaos would be SIZ 121 or 122 (the wimp!). So the Crimson Bat might terrorize Gloranthans but would be in trouble if it ever encountered Godzilla; on the other hand, it might be an even match for Gamera.

The solution, of course, is for your Gloranthan PCs to start worshiping Mothra, protector of all life on earth (although not necessarily overly concerned about humans). It's Be Kind to Six-Inch Fairies Week!

[vagabond]

I was actually working up a formula where, given STR, weight in kg and height (or length, whichever is the primary gauge for the creature's size), I can determine an appropriate SIZ. Basically, the formula looks at STR and height/length to determine a basic density, and then adjusts the result somewhat by examining the weight. In testing, it actually works out pretty well. If you post some examples (whether they exist in a BRP book or not), I can post some results to see how things compare/look. I originally used this for my Jorune conversion, and I have both a standard SIZ value as well as the "Mass Factor/Multiplier" I was going to optionally use.

Ian

[ClawCarver]

I was actually working up a formula where, given STR, weight in kg and height (or length, whichever is the primary gauge for the creature's size), I can determine an appropriate SIZ. Basically, the formula looks at STR and height/length to determine a basic density, and then adjusts the result somewhat by examining the weight. In testing, it actually works out pretty well. If you post some examples (whether they exist in a BRP book or not), I can post some results to see how things compare/look. I originally used this for my Jorune conversion, and I have both a standard SIZ value as well as the "Mass Factor/Multiplier" I was going to optionally use.

Ian

Hi, Ian.

You've mentioned your alternative approach in the context of Jorune before, I know. The only problem I see (and it's relevant to this thread) is that if you are "adjusting somewhat by weight" then you still need to know the creature's weight to begin with. And that takes us back to the issue I raised earlier: it might be relatively easy to extrapolate the weight/mass of a giant human, gorilla, or snake, but how much (to use a Jorune example) does a corondon weigh? It's seven metres tall, but nowhere in the Jorune books are we told how much it weighs, and its body is shaped quite unlike anything on Earth (and we can't even see from the picture how long its tail is), so educated guesswork is all we have to go on. My own "guesstimate" for a full-grown corondon would be something like 10.5 tons (9.5 metric tonnes), for a SIZ of 68. But your corondon may vary.

And if we DO know the weight in advance, then we can just look up SIZ on the table.

Having said all that, I appreciate the fact that you're trying to work this stuff out in a less woolly, more "scientific" way. I'd be interested to know how you'd deal with something like - I dunno, let me see... How about a good ol' AD&D chimera? (5 feet tall at the shoulder, apparently.)

Alan

[vagabond]

Hi Alan,

Yes, one could use a given weight to find SIZ on the table, but the table does not really take into account frame. That was one of the things I liked about the SIZ table for PCs in Stormbringer 1st through 4th - it had variations due to frame.

That is kind of the principle my formula works on - given STR and height/length, the "bulk" of the necessary mass can be derived. I then factor in weight to adjust for frame. The result is a pretty good representation of SIZ with respect to both mass and length.

Like the Corondon (and Dhar-Corondon), many creatures have no definitive stats, so we must come up with educated guesses and extrapolations to determine appropriate values. I'll see what numbers I can dig up for the corondon, and run it through my formula.

I have already used the formula for the various intelligent races, even modifying the known values for Corastin and Croid since the ones presented in the Sholari Pack did not seem right - Corastin were listed as weighing 450 lbs, but were 10.5 ft tall, and Croid were about 9 ft tall, yet weighed 400 lbs, and were said to be more massive. And then we have Bronth, who at 8 ft tall could weigh as much as 1000 lbs, and yet the Sholari Pack has them weighing much less. Mass-wise, Bronth are the most dense based upon the values given in the books, and the Corastin seem to have a similar build to the Boccord, but definitely weigh more since the Corastin taller and stronger. I believe I came up with something around 750 - 800 lbs for Corastin and Croid nearly hitting 1000 lbs (they should be about as massive as Bronth if not moreso). I'll have to dig up my notes.

Since the Chimera's body is basically a large lion, we have something we can point to (average males in the wild seem to crest at almost 500 lbs, and the largest one in captivity was over 800 lbs). The goat's head it not going to impact any size estimations, but there would be some effort due to wings and dragon head. Either way, I have sufficient reference material to give me pretty decent values to plug in. I'll let you know what I come up with.

Ian

[soltakss]

How much does an elephant weigh?

SIZ is a relative characteristic and is variable. You can't point at something and say "that weighs 10.5 tons" and write it down. That might help you if you want an average score, but the SIZ ranges are more important. Is there a large variation in size? Are different sexes the same size? Are there massive bulls/cows that outweigh normal creatures?

So, your corondon would weigh 10 tons (either 10, 160 kg, 10,000 kg or 9.070 kg depending on which ton(ne) you use) and SIZ 68. if that is an average, you could have 4D6+54, 6D6+47, 8D6+40 or whatever. That's why comparison with something else out there is a better bet than picking a figure out of the air.

Now, once you have rolled the SIZ of a creature, then you can use the SIZ Table to work out how heavy it is (in kilos to make things easier).

[vagabond]

Yes, you are correct. What I should have said was I used the average (or, sometimes, max values) to determine either an average or a max size, and then take that value as a basis for an appropriate range.

Ian

[ClawCarver]

How much does an elephant weigh?

SIZ is a relative characteristic and is variable. You can't point at something and say "that weighs 10.5 tons" and write it down. That might help you if you want an average score, but the SIZ ranges are more important. Is there a large variation in size? Are different sexes the same size? Are there massive bulls/cows that outweigh normal creatures?

Oh, indeed. I think that for writing/running a one-off adventure, SIZ ranges are less important. The Ceratosaurus that showed up outside Arkham in "Gate from the Past" (I'm showing my age here) was SIZ 36, and that's that. But when statting lots of dinosaur species for my FLESH game, or converting creatures from other systems like Jorune, or obviously if you're writing a sourcebook for others to use, then coming up with a reasonable SIZ range (for adults of the species*) is a necessary task. Sometimes easy, sometimes less so.

So, your corondon would weigh 10 tons (either 10, 160 kg, 10,000 kg or 9.070 kg depending on which ton(ne) you use) and SIZ 68. if that is an average, you could have 4D6+54, 6D6+47, 8D6+40 or whatever. That's why comparison with something else out there is a better bet than picking a figure out of the air.

Sure. And although I said that the corondon resembles nothing on Earth, if I squint at it, it kind of looks to me like a cross between a giant crocodile and a centaur. But my point was that we simply don't know the weight of a corondon and we never will. Nor do we know how much they vary in size. But it doesn't really matter because we can make it up. Not by picking a figure out of the air (which I didn't do), but by comparison and calculation and a bit of common sense (which is how I arrived at my figure of 10.5 tons - I even used graph paper!). I said previously that these things often require a bit of educated guesswork. Maybe I didn't stress the educated enough.

I suppose what I was trying to say is that there is no right or wrong SIZ for a corondon (or any other fantastic creature, for that matter), since it doesn't exist. There's just reasonable (e.g., 68) and unreasonable (e.g., 10 or 100). And I'm intrigued by Vagabond's secret formula.

Oh, and to my mind, SIZ 68 is probably around the maximum for a corondon. Hell's teeth, with its firepower, that's big enough!

*It's probably tacitly understood that the stats for animals in the BGB refer to adults, but I wish it were stated explicitly.

[ClawCarver]

The more important question, of course, is:

Kong v Corondon. Who wins?

[vagabond]

With those thailiers and lightning blast dyshas, I don't think Kong has much of a chance.

Ian

[ClawCarver]

With those thailiers and lightning blast dyshas, I don't think Kong has much of a chance.

"It was Desti killed the beast."

[seneschal]

On the other hand, Kong went on to best Godzilla despite the latter's fiery breath and lashing tail (the Toho version(s) are much larger than the 1933 original).

While choosing a large lion as a template for a chimera or griffin seems logical, we run into the issue of density. Same with statting up Barsoomian denizens or other light-world aliens. For instance, a Green Martian warrior may be 15 feet tall but it weighs only as much as a terrestrial 5-foot female gorilla (400 pounds) because Mars' lesser gravity requires less dense and stocky body structures. With that in mind, how would you ever calculate reasonable SIZes for banths, thoats, calots, hairless white apes, apts, etc.? In the same way, that griffin may be as large as a lion but as a flying creature it has to be lighter (lower mass) than a earthbound critter of the same size, hollow bones and all that. How do you handle that? (Most games handle it by not worrying overmuch about mass at all.) You could say, "It's just a magical creature; why worry about it?" But as a GM, you're still stuck with putting together a write-up for your players to tangle with.

[ClawCarver]

All fair points. I think we're back to educated guesswork, some rough calculations taking into account all the factors you mention, and whatever seems right to you as GM.

On a related note, skeletons in the BRP big gold book (and RQ3) get SIZ 2D6+6, the same as living humans. Well, if SIZ is based on mass, that can't be right. My understanding is that the skeleton makes up no more than 20% of the mass of a human. (Most of the remaining mass, of course, is water.) So skeletons should have SIZ divided by 5. Since they have no CON, and their Hit Points are based directly on their SIZ, something's got to give. Either skeletons are going to pose a significantly reduced threat with their piddling 2 or 3 Hit Points, or the GM has to step in and say, "Ah, but the necromantic energies used to animate the bones confer extra toughness and resilience" or something similar. I'd be interested to know if anyone has addressed this niggle, and how they dealt with it.

[vagabond]

As far as Chimeras needing to be lighter - 1) they are magical beasts and may not need to adhere to physics, and 2) I saw a great "documentary" on dragons where they had a bladder that they filled with gas from digestion which served the dual purpose of adding buoyancy and fuel for their flame.

As far as the BGB's skeletons SIZ not meshing with what their mass should be - that's why relying solely on mass or solely on height/length can cause discrepancies. I'll have to plug in some numbers for skeletons into my formula and see how it turns out.

Ian

[dragonewt]

Kong v Corondon. Who wins?

I want to see:

• Godzilla vs. Gloranthan Crimson Bat.
  
• Batman vs. Gloranthan Crimson Bat.
  
• Superman vs. Gloranthan Crimson Bat.
  
• Ultraman vs. Gloranthan Crimson Bat.
  
• Duke Nukem vs. Gloranthan Crimson Bat.
  

FYI,

The SIZ of the Gloranthan Crimson Bat, depending on the source, is:

• Cult Compendium (Moon Design Publication): 180
  
• MRQ1 Monsters: 114
  
• Elder Secrets: 204
  

Elder Secrets rates the Mother of all Monsters at SIZ 2555 (two thousand five hundred and fifty five). Any challengers?

PS: Of course Chuck Norris would beat them all, with a single round-house kick to the head.

Edited July 21, 2010 by dragonewt

[seneschal]

The problem with SIZ-ing up Godzilla is that his dimensions and mass vary from movie to movie. Looking again at Kaijuphile.com and The Monster Archives, his mass is estimated from 20,000 to 24,000 tons (20,000 to 30,000 metric tons) with at least one version at 55,000 tons (60,000 metric tons). But even at his "smallest" he's waaaaay beyond the scope the SIZ chart by a couple orders of magnitude.

The 1998 American version of Godzilla (renamed Zilla by the Japanese) might be more manageable, but neither Godzilla fan site deigned to list stats for him. Poor guy, doesn't get a lot of love from G-fans.

[vagabond]

The Gloranthan Crimson Bat ... whatever ...

Try the Crimson Xoar from Stormbringer - SIZ and CON of 128D8 for an average of 576 and a max of 1024. It does 100d8 with its horns, and its roar deafens anyone within a miles who fails a CONx3 roll, plus, for each point the player misses the CONx3 roll by, he takes a point of HP damage.

Ian

Edited July 21, 2010 by vagabond

[vagabond]

And that takes us back to the issue I raised earlier: it might be relatively easy to extrapolate the weight/mass of a giant human, gorilla, or snake, but how much (to use a Jorune example) does a corondon weigh? It's seven metres tall, but nowhere in the Jorune books are we told how much it weighs, and its body is shaped quite unlike anything on Earth (and we can't even see from the picture how long its tail is), so educated guesswork is all we have to go on. My own "guesstimate" for a full-grown corondon would be something like 10.5 tons (9.5 metric tonnes), for a SIZ of 68. But your corondon may vary.

Actually, that seems like a very good guess. The old Avalon Hill Gloranthan Bestiary has a creature called the Rascullu. It is a centaur like creature, with a rhino's ower body, covered with a thick armor like hide. It is 3m high at the shoulder, and 5m up to the crown of its head. Since it only has two arms, it is a little shorter than a Dhar Corondon at 6.4m (it's actually 7 yards in the book). The SIZ for the rascullu is given as 6d6 + 30 for an average of 51 and max of 66. I could easily see adding another 2m to the height, and bumping the size up to suit so that it is 8d6 + 40 for an average of 68 and a max of 88. The rascullu has a given STR of 6d6 + 36, but its upper body is much bulkier, so I would guess that a Dhar Corondon's STR be somewhere around 4d6 + 30 for an average of 44 and max of 54. Plugging these numbers into my formula yields a mass of almost 9000 kg for an average specimen, and over 12800 kg for a large Dhar Corondon. Not bad given your estimates. Of course, I can solve for SIZ if mass is known.

Having said all that, I appreciate the fact that you're trying to work this stuff out in a less woolly, more "scientific" way. I'd be interested to know how you'd deal with something like - I dunno, let me see... How about a good ol' AD&D chimera? (5 feet tall at the shoulder, apparently.)

I'll get back to you on the chimera once I track down some more info.

Ian

[dragonewt]

Try the Crimson Xoar from Stormbringer

I see your Crimson Xoar from Stormbringer and raise you a Gloranthan Slimestone Gorp (SIZ=10000).

[dragonewt]

The problem with SIZ-ing up Godzilla is that his dimensions and mass vary from movie to movie.

Jeff's Russell's Starship Dimensions site assumes Godzilla to be about 100 meters tall - See bottom of the 1x Page.

I am interested to see a SIZ chart that covers everything on the Starship Dimensions site.

Having played HERO, and benefited from its Mass/Strength chart at these scales, it would be good to see one for BRP where Super Heroes meet Kaiju meet Mecha meet Starships (all in the same single battle).

[dragonewt]

Speaking of the Slimestone Gorp, here is some interesting reading I rediscovered (full content via this link):

...

As culprit behind the RQ SIZ tables, I'll hereby fess up -- the tables get screwy at high levels, and some new Einsteinium type of physics is needed. I made a feeble attempt at same by stating that once each SIZ point equals a metric ton (I think at around 103 or so), the geometric progression stops. By this scale, the super-gorp would have a SIZ of 25 million. Which is probably way too big for even it.

...

[seneschal]

The Call of Cthulhu Character Generator ( http://wstryder.org/coccg/index.php?balance=-4&nof=1&monster=Cthulhu ) gives Mighty Cthulhu's SIZ as a mere 210. Reminds me of the scene in Gappa The Triphibian Monster where Daddy Gappa showed up with a giant octopus (a monster in its own right) in his beak to feed to Baby Gappa. Since Cthulhu has been BRP's gold standard for "big freakin' critter" its pretty clear the system wasn't designed with Jeff Russell's Starship Dimensions scale battles in mind.

I'm a HERO System veteran but a BRP newbie, so these sorts of differences kinda throw me off. On the other hand, I see a surprising number of parallels between the two systems.

But it's clear that an encounter between Godzilla and Cthulhu would be no contest. Godzilla would be picking tasty tentacles out of his teeth.

[icebrand]

Siz never truly convinced me, after this thread, i HATE it.

By the way, human female siz is wrong!!! My female PC's are SIZ 13 (the kolati) and 14 (the vingan).

So far they were 1.75 (5'8'') & 1.80 (5'10''); that alone was pushing it, but hey, kristanna loken is 1.80! Anyway, now they are suppossed to weight more like i do (WTF!) so i can:

a) don't mind siz at all

tell my players they are actually on the big side of gloranthan heroines

c) modify the female stat rolls AND tell my players to change their characters AND avoid beeing hit with something.

So, what should females roll for SIZ?

2D6+2? [4-14, 9 avg]

2D6+3? [5-15, 10 avg]

While at it, maybe they should roll the same for STR and/or CON?

[vagabond]

Siz never truly convinced me, after this thread, i HATE it.

By the way, human female siz is wrong!!! My female PC's are SIZ 13 (the kolati) and 14 (the vingan).

So far they were 1.75 (5'8'') & 1.80 (5'10''); that alone was pushing it, but hey, kristanna loken is 1.80! Anyway, now they are suppossed to weight more like i do (WTF!) so i can:

a) don't mind siz at all

tell my players they are actually on the big side of gloranthan heroines

c) modify the female stat rolls AND tell my players to change their characters AND avoid beeing hit with something.

So, what should females roll for SIZ?

2D6+2? [4-14, 9 avg]

2D6+3? [5-15, 10 avg]

While at it, maybe they should roll the same for STR and/or CON?

If you have access to the old Stormbringer RPG (1st - 4th), it had a table that cross referenced SIZ with thin, average, and heavy frames, to give you a better range of weights. IIRC, it worked out to +/-2SIZ, i.e. a female human with SIZ 13 could have the listed weight from anywhere between SIZ 11 and SIZ 15.

But, I can run a 1.75m, 54.5kg, STR 13 woman through my formula, and it returns a SIZ of 8.3 which would put her at around 120 lbs or so which is what I started with. You can easily choose to round up a little to SIZ 9, which still gives 121 - 129 lbs, which is still reasonable.

Ian