Do you plan on using hit locations?

[Enpeze]

I picked the last option because I like both...and I really am a gorp (with lots of extra chaos features)! >:->

I think a hard scifi would greatly benefit from hit locations. The old Ringworld supplement had them and it works very well since any of the scifi weapons in it do damage beyond a humans max hit points. The only way to survive those is to take the hit in a limb (that's immediately missing, but can be regrown of course...or replaced in a different take on scifi), but any hit to abs, chest, or head are instant death. Without hit locations, any hit would be instant death.

This is an extremely interesting view. For over-the-top damage settings hitpoints enable creatures to survive much longer than in "standard" settings.

[Enpeze]

I'm a fan of WFRP so the idea of hitting an arm and crippling it appeals to me. >:->

Did you ever play BRP with hitlocations? If yes then you surely know that loosing a limb or head happens in BRP much more often than in WFRP. In our low powered fantasy games every second fight or so. I cannot recall that this was the same while I GMed WFRP. Ok in this game there was always the theoretical option to loose a limb but it happened only a few times in more than one year of campaigning. I think WFRP is in this respect much overrated. Its reputation as "gritty" system is IMO mainly coming from D&D players which compare it with their rule system.

[Enpeze]

In another game I own, the player says which location the character is aiming for. After the player rolls his attack die, he then rolls for the hit location twice (more if the rolls are on the same spot). The roll that comes nearest or on the location is the one that's kept. I plan on using this rule.

Years ago we had also a house rule for hitlocations.

For every 10% you have been under your skill roll you could modify the hitlocation table with 1.

(eg. you have 60% and roll 30 for to hit. This is 30% under you max skill. So you can modify the d20 roll on the hit location table by 3)

An additional rule in this little subsystem is that if you reach 21 (by modifying the table) you can choose to hit any hand-sized spot you want on the enemies body. (hitting the eye-slits in a helm is not possible)

But today we dont use this rule anymore. I found it nice several years ago, because it made combat easier to control. But now we like games without hitlocations more.

[Nightshade]

That's the guy who made Timelords, right? Supposedly, his damage and hit location system was/is the most realistic ever in gaming. Played one session of Timelords, once. Geeze that's a complex system.:eek:

That's the one. It made some, as it turns out, overly blithe assumptions about the effects of damage in combat (modern studies have suggested that most death spiral systems aren't as realistic as the intuitively seem to be), but there was still good work there.

Timelords wasn't quite as bad as it looked on the surface, except for its phasing system which was essentially a _more_ complex version of the Hero phasing system, and was almost unmanageable.

[soltakss]

I just don't understand games without Hit Locations.

In D20 you just soak up the damage until you fall over, in HeroQuest you can be worn down or taken out in one blow, in Stormbringer you had Major Wounds which I never got the hang of. I never understood how combat worked in Traveller.

In real life, you hit someone in part of their body and that part of the body is injured. Hit Locations model that pretty well, in my opinion.

The only problem with the D20 hit location is that it is very basic - arms/legs/head/chest/abdomen and that's about it. I'd prefer a D100 table to show hands/feet/upper/lower limbs and so on, but that makes tying up general HPs difficult and means you can die with a few non-maiming blows to different limbs. But, there again I suppose you can do that anyway.

So, yes to hit locations every time.

Edited July 12, 2008 by soltakss

[Harshax]

The only problem with the D20 hit location is that it is very basic - arms/legs/head/chest/abdomen and that's about it. I'd prefer a D100 table to show hands/feet/upper/lower limbs and so on, but that makes tying up general HPs difficult and means you can die with a few non-maiming blows to different limbs. But, there again I suppose you can do that anyway.

So, yes to hit locations every time.

This would be brutal:

          General Hit Points   14


d100                 Location HP                

1 - 5       5%     SKULL       1  (Head)

6 - 10      5%     FACE†       1  (Head)

11 - 15     5%     NECK        1  (Head)

16 - 27     12%    •SHOULDER   2  (Arm)

28 - 33     6%     •UPPER      1  (Arm)

34 - 35     2%     •ELBOW      1  (Arm)

36 - 39     4%     •FOREARM    1  (Arm)

40 - 43     4%     •HAND       1  (Arm)

44 - 60     17%    THORAX      3  (Chest)

61 - 70     10%    ABDOMEN     2  (Abdomen)

71 - 74     4%     GROIN       1  (Abdomen)

75 - 80     6%     •HIP        1  (Leg)

81 - 88     8%     •THIGH      2  (Leg)

89 - 90     2%     •KNEE       1  (Leg)

91 - 96     6%     •CALF       1  (Leg)

97 - 100    4%     •FOOT       1  (Leg)

Stolen from HarnMaster

[Enpeze]

This would be brutal:

          General Hit Points   14


d100                 Location HP                

1 - 5       5%     SKULL       1  (Head)

6 - 10      5%     FACE†       1  (Head)

11 - 15     5%     NECK        1  (Head)

16 - 27     12%    •SHOULDER   2  (Arm)

28 - 33     6%     •UPPER      1  (Arm)

34 - 35     2%     •ELBOW      1  (Arm)

36 - 39     4%     •FOREARM    1  (Arm)

40 - 43     4%     •HAND       1  (Arm)

44 - 60     17%    THORAX      3  (Chest)

61 - 70     10%    ABDOMEN     2  (Abdomen)

71 - 74     4%     GROIN       1  (Abdomen)

75 - 80     6%     •HIP        1  (Leg)

81 - 88     8%     •THIGH      2  (Leg)

89 - 90     2%     •KNEE       1  (Leg)

91 - 96     6%     •CALF       1  (Leg)

97 - 100    4%     •FOOT       1  (Leg)

Stolen from HarnMaster

Much too complicated. Is not basic anymore IMO.

[Harshax]

Much too complicated. Is not basic anymore IMO.

Clearly I posted in response to someone who thought the default hit location table was too basic. I love the extra detail personally, but also agree that you couldn't keep the model of Hit Points per Location.

However, if you keep the more generic Hit Points per Location (arm, head, chest, abdomen, legs), you could use the above table for flavor.

That all said, I wouldn't use this table unless I also intended to use a much more detailed armor system. This would add a lot of flavor to post-apocalyptic settings where characters must arm themselves piece-meal, or any gritty fantasy game.

The only problem with the D20 hit location is that it is very basic - arms/legs/head/chest/abdomen and that's about it. I'd prefer a D100 table to show hands/feet/upper/lower limbs and so on, but that makes tying up general HPs difficult and means you can die with a few non-maiming blows to different limbs. But, there again I suppose you can do that anyway.

So, yes to hit locations every time.

[rust]

I just don't understand games without Hit Locations.

...

In real life, you hit someone in part of their body and that part of the body is injured. Hit Locations model that pretty well, in my opinion.

It depends on the setting. In my science fiction setting a character can only

be hit once in any combat wit the setting's typical weapons. The first hit usu-

ally kills the character. If he should survive, the hit location is only of interest

to the medics at the hospital, who must know which limb to regenerate.

But that is normally quite obvious ... >:->

[Nightshade]

In real life, you hit someone in part of their body and that part of the body is injured. Hit Locations model that pretty well, in my opinion.

The problem (and this applies to total hit points too) is that damage, barring blood loss, doesn't really accumulate that way; if I get hit in the arm twice, it isn't necessarily meaningfully worse off than getting hit in once. It might be, but that's more of a statistical thing than an accumulative thing (i.e. the fact I got hit there twice makes it more likely one of the two hits was significant) and its actually far harder to impair an area enough to stop it than is intuitive.

Its not that a hit location system can't be functional, but the truth is, the RQ style ones lie to you about damage about as often as they tell you the truth.

[RosenMcStern]

The problem (and this applies to total hit points too) is that damage, barring blood loss, doesn't really accumulate that way; if I get hit in the arm twice, it isn't necessarily meaningfully worse off than getting hit in once.

True. A solutins to this was suggested during MRQ playtest as the "threshold" rule, but rejected. A pity. The point was that damage that did not pass the location threshold was neglectable and did not influence you. It is more realistic than accumulating damage in HLs, but it does not work without total HPs, i.e. in MRQ. It could be used as an option in BRP, though: either the damage is enough to disable the location in one pass, or it is marked off total HPs only. Big realism, less bookkeeping.

[Shaira]

It could be used as an option in BRP, though: either the damage is enough to disable the location in one pass, or it is marked off total HPs only. Big realism, less bookkeeping.

Nice one. I like that as an optional rule. I'm concentrating on playing the RAW at the mo, but I'm gonna hold your "Threshold Rule" in reserve for later!

Cheers,

Sarah

[Nightshade]

True. A solutins to this was suggested during MRQ playtest as the "threshold" rule, but rejected. A pity. The point was that damage that did not pass the location threshold was neglectable and did not influence you. It is more realistic than accumulating damage in HLs, but it does not work without total HPs, i.e. in MRQ. It could be used as an option in BRP, though: either the damage is enough to disable the location in one pass, or it is marked off total HPs only. Big realism, less bookkeeping.

I'm not sure it even requires total hit points (truth to tell, total hit points aren't a great model either if you're striving for any real attempt at realism at all; going down in combat is, barring the single critical one-shot result (which doesn't really care about prior damage at all) mostly about shock and bleeding; shock is almost as unconcerned about prior damage as the above (this has been studied pretty extensively in the past about gunshot wounds, but its hard to picture it really being different in other sorts of weapon trauma) and bleeding, while it does accumulate to some degree, during the course of a typical combat is much more likely to be an issue of were the bleeding started than how hard you were hit per see; you can bleed out easier from a marginal wound in some areas than from some severs.

But that requires reworking things considerably; I think Agtxgt did something on this subject at one time that might be in the downloads area.

[RosenMcStern]

I am not so convinced about unrealism of total hit points. A 2-point wound hurts and makes you bleed. Six such wounds can take you down (though they might not be able to kill you). Point is, 1 pt. damage is not a "bruise", it is damage!

In any case, another option would be to just not subtract from HP if you do not pass the threshold. This could be a good houserule to add general HP to MRQ: no HP tallied until location is below zero. Note that one is still up and fighting with locations below zero in MRQ (especially trollkin that ambush adventurers in caves in Western Ralios - but you will not get this one since Rurik is on vacation ).

[Nightshade]

I am not so convinced about unrealism of total hit points. A 2-point wound hurts and makes you bleed. Six such wounds can take you down (though they might not be able to kill you). Point is, 1 pt. damage is not a "bruise", it is damage!

The problem is "damage" in human systems isn't additiive that way (again with the exception of bleeding out).

In any case, another option would be to just not subtract from HP if you do not pass the threshold. This could be a good houserule to add general HP to MRQ: no HP tallied until location is below zero. Note that one is still up and fighting with locations below zero in MRQ (especially trollkin that ambush adventurers in caves in Western Ralios - but you will not get this one since Rurik is on vacation ).

[Harshax]

I don't think I'm understanding the threshold idea.

You figure out HP per location, and that becomes the threshold? If damage doesn't exceed the threshold you just tick off points from Total HP, but if it does then the limb is disabled?

Not sure how that really changes anything, but I've already admitted that I don't understand it.

How about this:

All damage is tallied against Total HP. Calculate Hit Location HP. This is the damage threshold. Any blow that exceeds this number causes the character to make a shock roll: an opposed roll of Total Damage vs. Total HP.

Failure means the limb is disabled, you're knocked unconscious, etc.

Secondly, characters don't go down when their HP reaches 0. However, once total damage exceeds total Hit Points, the character needs to make another shock roll each round and every time they are injured.

This kind of rolls the 'Being Heroic' mechanic into normal game play, and offers the unusual chance of being knocked out with one blow, or

lingering for hours like Dutch Shultz.

[RosenMcStern]

The problem is "damage" in human systems isn't additiive that way (again with the exception of bleeding out).

Pain and blood loss are additive - and what else do you think "damage" is, in general? However, a disabled limb means a broken bone or the like, so it takes more than "1 point when the limb was already at -3" to do it. All the suggestions here are realistic, but require more bookkeeping.

[AikiGhost]

I don't think I'm understanding the threshold idea.

Are we talking about how Stormbringer does it or something else?

[Harshax]

Are we talking about how Stormbringer does it or something else?

The question was in reference to a concept that came up in the MRQ playtest, but was later discarded.

[Trifletraxor]

One way of doing it:

Average Joe

[table]|melee (d12*)|missile (d12*)||

Head|11-12|12|Total hit points|12

L Arm|9-10|10|Minor wound|<6

R Arm|7-8|9|Major wound|6-11

Torso|5-6|5-8|Mortal wound|12+

L Leg|3-4|3-4||

R Leg|1-2|1-2||[/table]

(* or just use the old d20)

Minor wound - only affects total hit points.

Major wound - location struck is affected as per RQ3 rules when location hit points are at 0 or below (but not severed or maimed limb).

Mortal wound - location struck is maimed or severed as per RQ3 rules, including bleeding.

Death is at -1/2 total hit points. POW x1 roll to stay awake when at zero or below HP (but not after it's been failed once). Limbs can only take max. total HP in damage in one shot, no limit on damage to torso or head.

Less severing than RQ3, somewhat less mortal, but allows for different armor on different locations, and more in keep with old RQ3 than the Stormbringer major wound rules.

What do you think? :confused:

SGL.

[RosenMcStern]

Not bad, except for the fact that there is no difference between resilience of different locations. But the other concepts are simple and viable.

But NO D12. Period. I always have Dragonewts, Wind Children and all means of non-standard-location-table PCs in my games, so it is either D20 or D100. Never think humanoid when BRP or RQ is concerned, Trif.

[SDLeary]

The question was in reference to a concept that came up in the MRQ playtest, but was later discarded.

Yes....

Basically, you figure hit locations as normal, but rather than us these values as points in the location, they are threshold values. Anything under the threshold in a single blow is a minor wound, over a major wound, 2x the value or above, a critical wound... effects to be as per RQ 3.

Now, at this point there were two suggestions...

Just track wounds, which is very quick and light, or...

Apply points to general hit points, thus still giving a way to track overall health, and a way to apply poisons and other things that track on the general HP list now.

SDLeary

[Trifletraxor]

Not bad, except for the fact that there is no difference between resilience of different locations. But the other concepts are simple and viable.

That is true, but is the RQ3 difference in hit location resilience actually that realistic? Are you able to resist more damage to your head than to your arm f.ex.?

But NO D12. Period. I always have Dragonewts, Wind Children and all means of non-standard-location-table PCs in my games, so it is either D20 or D100. Never think humanoid when BRP or RQ is concerned, Trif.

Ruler Dragonewt

[table]|melee (d12)|missile (d12)

Head|12|12

L Wing|11|11

R Wing|10|10

L Arm|9|9

R Arm|8|8

Torso|6-7|4-7

L Leg|4-5|3

R Leg|2-3|2

Tail|1|1[/table]

But yes, I'm aware that the d12 location dice those not have much support.

SGL.

[frogspawner]

Death is at -1/2 total hit points. ...

What do you think?

I use a similar system, so I quite like it. I.e: Use only Total HPs, HPs = SIZ/2, Die at under -CON; Wounds taking you to 0 or less disable the location hit, -5 gives a lesser Major Wound ('serious' - breaks etc); -10 gives a greater Major Wound ('critical' - severs etc), rolled on the combined location/wound table I gave before.

That is true, but is the RQ3 difference in hit location resilience actually that realistic? Are you able to resist more damage to your head than to your arm f.ex.?

Yes, it contains the assumption that all locations are equally vulnerable - but you could skew the location table according to your taste in that regard.

But yes, I'm aware that the d12 location dice those not have much support.

Well, I'm quite fond of the idea of d12's for location. But I won't be using it (yet), because I'm currently on a 'harmonize with straight BRP' kick.

[AikiGhost]

Personally I prefer the Stormbringer system (for many reasons) but for one that has not come up here which is that the major wounds one receives actually have some character. You can specifically get scars on your face, loose ears, have fingers removed, be cut and bleeding into your eyes, etc, etc. The when recovering you make a luck roll to see if any effects are permanent, its full of WFRP style nastiness.

To some degree I found RQ could get a little "Lopped off another left arm, one more for he collection" after a while.