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Sex and Marriage in Orlanthi culture


DhBodhi

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Marriage is normally exogamous - you take your partners from outside the clan (and not merely the bloodline). Marriage is a bond between the participants and their clans, and the class of the marriage and its terms are carefully negotiated between the parties and their clans.

Sex is easy. Sex is simply sex for the Orlanthi. Orlanthi religion celebrates sexuality as the cup of life. Ernalda is a goddess of women and sex, and has many lovers and husbands among the gods, although Orlanth is first among them. Orlanth and his half-brother Yinkin had many amatory adventures with countless goddesses and several gods. The fertilizing rain that makes agriculture possible is the corporeal love of Orlanth and Ernalda. I'm sure there are fertility rituals where sex between  members of the same clan - even the same bloodline - is likely to happen, but such things are not considered incest. Heck, I suspect such events are not considered adultery - they are divine rites.

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5 hours ago, Darius West said:

One would suppose that Lhankor Mhy lawspeakers would be pretty good at memorizing or recording clan genealogies to prevent accidental incest

Definitely!

And in Nochet, they not only keep track of bloodlines to avoid this, but also retain the genealogies from the ancient days so that you can determine which Enfranchised (noble) House you descend from, married into, have obligations to, should have land rights from, and so on.  And there are lots, and lots, and lots of tablets and scrolls to prove it! (If you can find them, that is)

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On 20/09/2016 at 0:25 PM, DhBodhi said:

Does the clan ring or Orlanthi priest have a say in whether a divorce can go ahead?

No. Remember, "no one can make you do anything." Marriage is undoubtedly consensual in Orlanthi society and divorce and individual's right. Although, whether consent was given to please parents etc.may be debatable, and often social pressure is the biggest obstacle to divorce (i.e. telling your parents that the marriage didn't work out).

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On 9/23/2016 at 6:52 AM, Darius West said:

One would suppose that Lhankor Mhy lawspeakers would be pretty good at memorizing or recording clan genealogies to prevent accidental incest.

Another alternative is to ask the spirits of your ancestors for a blessing in any union / marriage. They will be quick to approve / disapprove.

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15 hours ago, David Scott said:

Another alternative is to ask the spirits of your ancestors for a blessing in any union / marriage. They will be quick to approve / disapprove.

One problem with is the presence of ogres in some Sartarite clans. Unless the ogres only marry among themselves (either in the clan or between clans where ogres are present), or seek partners well outside the local communities (something any alert clan and tribal elders should notice). Ogres marrying non-ogres is possible, I suppose, but the ancestors should detect and warn their descendant?

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Orlanthi marriage is consensual and follows the Orlanth-Ernalda model.

However, there are other ways to marry:

  • Orlanth took many concubines on HeroQuests and these can be gained by HeroQuesting, perhaps to legitimise otherwise taboo relationships
  • Wives can be taken from other clans by force, HeroQuesting can be used to legitimise the act, in the same way that Vadrus and Gagrath did
  • Heort married a daughter of Tada, I can't remember of this is the Foreigner's Marriage, but this certainly allows non-Orlanthi to be brought into the clan as wives
  • Heler joined the Storm Tribe through marriage and this is a way for a man to join the clan through marriage

 

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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  • 1 month later...

Because you want kids (and want them to belong to your kinship group or want their father to protect/defend/advance them). Because you want allies in another clan. Because you want land or herds. Because you love your partner. Because you want access to your partner's power/magic/wealth/status/alliances/etc.

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 I have a few question.

 What are Orlanthi laws concerning Sex between a Master and a slave? Does the slave have any rights in this matter or is it just hard to be a slave. And would a child born of a master/slave relation take the status of the free parent. And would it matter if the Slave was a fellow Orlanthi versus a non Orlanthi Slave

  And it was state that it is taboo for an Orlanthi to have sex with married people and foreigners . So if I seduce the wife of a Lunar Officer cause she very good looking, how big a fine do I have to pay for breaking two taboo? I willing to part with two bolgs.

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19 hours ago, TRose said:

What are Orlanthi laws concerning Sex between a Master and a slave? Does the slave have any rights in this matter or is it just hard to be a slave. And would a child born of a master/slave relation take the status of the free parent. And would it matter if the Slave was a fellow Orlanthi versus a non Orlanthi Slave

Bituran had a slave girl who whispered of Uleria's Arts and he married her in the end. So, it happens. It probably isn't frowned upon either.

As for willing or not, the Storm Pantheon has Vadrus and Gagarth, neither known for asking permission first. Orlanth took several concubines, were all those willing? I doubt it. So, Orlanthi have divine role models of forced or unwilling sex.

 

 

19 hours ago, TRose said:

And it was state that it is taboo for an Orlanthi to have sex with married people and foreigners . So if I seduce the wife of a Lunar Officer cause she very good looking, how big a fine do I have to pay for breaking two taboo? I willing to part with two bolgs.

 

The Orlanth-Ernalda model has no place for adultery, except when Orlanth or Ernalda committed adultery. Don;t forget, you can always HeroQuest and say "I am following in Orlanth's footsteps".

I am not sure about those taboos, they don't make much sense to me. Heort performed the Foreigner's Wedding to marry a foreigner, so it happens. Anyway, what is a foreigner?

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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Okay, time for an unpleasant question... 

We know that within Orlanthi culture a rapist is committing a chaotic act and in the process of turning into a broo, but there are a couple of times when the issue is more moot than that.

Firstly, the issue of thralls.  As thralls are property, they have no ability to give or refuse to give consent, but they are still human beings, so the rape of a thrall is a grey area.  Clearly the disparity in status is a major issue.

Secondly, rape as a result of a city falling to an enemy army has been a feature of warfare for as long as it has existed.  We know this happens in Glorantha too from documents like the Dispatch of Fadabius and King of Sartar.  Clearly this worship of Thed is acceptable to the chaos worshiping Lunars, who employ broos in their army, but what about for Sartarites and the non-chaotics?  Glorantha is an immensely female dominated society in many ways, but if there were no rapes taking place, would a goddess like Gorgorma exist ? It is fair to say that the Dara Happans are very paternalistic, and Gorgorma is part of their pantheon not the Orlanthi pantheon admittedly.  So what happens in Orlanthi culture when a girl is married off to a brutish and unsuitable husband who forces himself upon her, or is carried off by a "hero" who takes a fancy to her during a raid ?  These questions appear in the King of Dragon Pass game and obviously each clan may have a different answer, but the "all Orlanthi 85%" rule probably applies to this question.

In short, how do Orlanthi legally define rape and, more importantly when is it "not rape", and when (if ever) is rape acceptable or ignorable ?

 

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Thralls: they are not property but captive humans, and the clan  (rather than a single individual) typically rule them. The chieftain, ringmembers, thanes can naturally decide most what they want.

A thrall's child belongs to the clan (probably becoming a cottar, unless the father is powerful and enamoured; for all its freedom-loving stance, the Orlanthi culture has castes, about as much as Malkioni do...).

Now, as for rapes... Orlanthi justice is not a long shot from "might makes right". For instance, secret murder is bad, but open killing (outside kin, hospitality, etc) is only an economical loss - and getting it compensated can prove a tough challenge.

The myth of Orlanth and Thed is quite telling: he is very reluctant to condemn Ragnaglar (his brother) for his bad deeds, and raped victims are usually not more than Thed in a position to claim justice...

That's one of the shortfalls of Orlanthi "law" (quite a collection of contradictory cases, really). Chaos loves when law is flawed...

 

So you can get a great variety of situations - I am sure the poor female captives in a war are neither protected as kin/Orlanthis/anywhere close, and can be treated as strangers warriors can rape, like Orlanth himself did so many times.

Even marriage could be but a thin veil over rape, under some circumstances: a wife may divorce and return to her clan... unless she was married as part of a "please stop the feud and we'll pay you a regular tribute" kind of deal between the clans...

 

A rape is only deemed so if ruled as such by trial - by men or gods. Men's justice is, in this regard, highly likely to fail, and Orlanth himself may not be as prompt as you'd expect to condemn, and send his furies.

 

There are some protections, though: women themselves, and the goddesses. For instance, some have learnt the hard way that raping an Earth priestess may put the local Babeesrer Gors in a "good mood". And generally speaking, women do have social power, and will use it to prevent rapes; Ernalda cannot send retribution spirits on men, but she knows what happens to her worshippers, and disapproves of abuses.

 

Silly hoomanz, ya call yaselves civilized? HA! Pay attention to your mothers, ya fools!

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After thinking this over here my two bolgs.

 Orlanthi hate rape as it give power to Thed and is a chaotic act and rapist are harshly punished

 But as state above Thralls can neither give or deny consent so what ever happens to them is not considered by Orlanthi law rape.

 Same with storming an enemy town or village, the inhabitants became thralls as soon as they are captured so again what ever happens to them is not considered rape.

 But harming the clan is illegal and a Thane that goes around raping every Thrall girl will be hurting the clan , As some thralls some might attempt to run away to an enemy clan to escape the rapist , or some male relative might try to defend their wife or female relative (costing the clan a valuable worker) , there a good chance  productivity of Thralls would go down ,along with their  loyalty to the clan .

 Also thralls might have free family members who while not able stop the rape of their relatives by law, they can always find an excuse the to call the rapist out for a duel for some minor reason and again weaken the clan.

 

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So if sex within the clan is incest, what are the consequences when it inevitably happens (we're talking about people here, after all). Initiated unmarried teens who hardly see people outside the clan for most of the year, for instance – I'm hard-pressed to believe that they manage to keep it in their pants. Is it merely a minor crime (even Medieval Europe was surprisingly lenient when it came to pre-marital sex)? If it's a chaotic activity, one has to wonder how it's not a huge problem – it would seem far more common than other chaotic activities like rape or secret murder.  

Or if between married people within the clan – would it be worse than the 'mere' adultery (in quotes because adultery is a pretty big deal in itself), a further aggravating factor?

(One also has to wonder exactly what counts as 'sex' – only potentially procreative heterosexual acts? "I did not have sex with that clan-member"?)) 

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So the Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes quote on p. 1 of this thread – "They prohibit sex [...] with members of their own clan" – should not be regarded as canonical (or at least, interpreted in some different fashion)? If so, I'm pleased to hear that – that never quite made sense to me, and it seemed like a rule that would get broken on a large scale.

(Same thing with forbidding sex with foreigners...)

Edited by Akhôrahil
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Exogamous extra-clan marriages are safer than marrying in-clan for Orlanthi.  It is possible within an group of 1000 to have a stable population and avoid inbreeding, and even populations down to 400 if closely monitored.  Orlanthi would probably have to consult their ancestor spirits or the Lhankor Mhy genealogists, and you just know they are going to gossip.  It makes promiscuity somewhat difficult.  As for forbidding marriage to foreigners, I am sure that such prohibitions are lifted once the foreigners in question prove their intentions towards the clan are honorable and that they aren't secret chaos cultists.  I believe Orlanthi hospitality is quite good at allowing people gradual clan integration, and there is always another way.

Edited by Darius West
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