RQ2/RQ3 : 2 weapons & 2 attacks in the same round?

[Haimji]

Hi

In RQ2, the rules are : "when attacking with 2 weapons, the second attack is made at a strike rank equal to the strike rank of the first attack added to the usual strike rank for the second weapon. thus, if the character has a strike rank of 5 for the first weapon and a strike rank of 6 for the second, the second attack will come as strike rank 11."

In RQ3, i didn't find any rules about that...

So my question is : why you have to add the full SR to the second attack with the second weapon and +5 SR to the second attack when you attack twice with the same weapon?

[SDLeary]

Interesting. I hadn't noticed that before. I'm not sure of the real answer, but I would postulate that it has something to do with the cumbersome nature of actually swinging/thrusting with two weapons. I would think this would be especially true if the weapons were not balanced the same. Think of sword in one hand, and an axe/mace/warhammer in the other. Balance is totally different, how they connect (surface area) is different, etc. 

SDLeary

[Haimji]

Thank you, i didn't think about balance.

[MJ Sadique]

4 hours ago, Haimji said:

In RQ3, i didn't find any rules about that...

Because it's hidden in the rules : You have 2 actions per round, you can attack with melee weapon, parry with a melee weapon or Dodge. With a one hand weapon, you can only attack one time (the rule don't say anymore) unless you have more than 100% : So having two weapons you can attack only once with your first weapon and you can do another attack or parry with your other weapon, may it be a sword or a kick, and headbutt ...but it's implicit (no clearly written rules)

Ranged weapons, whip (is a ranged weapon) or spells aren't melee weapon so they don't consume actions and you can attack as much as you want as long you have enough time (RA : rank of actions). So a whip with an RA of 2 (in a round of 10 RA) can do up to 5 strikes. A bow in excellent conditions with melee RA of 1 can do up to 10 strikes...

[RosenMcStern]

 

 

1 hour ago, MJ Sadique said:

Because it's hidden in the rules : You have 2 actions per round, you can attack with melee weapon, parry with a melee weapon or Dodge. With a one hand weapon, you can only attack one time (the rule don't say anymore) unless you have more than 100% : So having two weapons you can attack only once with your first weapon and you can do another attack or parry with your other weapon, may it be a sword or a kick, and headbutt ...but it's implicit (no clearly written rules)

Ranged weapons, whip (is a ranged weapon) or spells aren't melee weapon so they don't consume actions and you can attack as much as you want as long you have enough time (RA : rank of actions). So a whip with an RA of 2 (in a round of 10 RA) can do up to 5 strikes. A bow in excellent conditions with melee RA of 1 can do up to 10 strikes...

This is a total misinterpretation of the rules. Everyone is very happy to read everyone else's opinion about how to play the game, but posting a misleading answer to a newcomer who is asking for rules clarifications is not useful. I kindly ask you to check the rules attentively before giving explanation.

Page 61 of the RQ 3 Deluxe rules (it might be another page in another edition) "Special Uses of Melee Weapons": when you have two weapons, your second attack comes 3 Strike Ranks after the first.

Missile weapons: the explanation is on page 66 of the RQ 3 Deluxe rules (again it might be another page in different editions) "Missile Weapon Table", under the Rate of fire entry. It is clearly stated that when the weapon has a rate of fire of 1/SR (the highest, as for bows) three strike ranks must be added to the firer's DEX SR before the next shot. Specifically, a DEX 20 archer with a bow can fire on SR 1, 5 and 9 (as specified also in countless published examples of non-player character stats). There is no way a bow can fire ten times per round.

The whip is labelled as "1/MR", which means that it can strike ONCE in a round, regardless of DEX and all other factors. The rest of the round is spent recovering the weapon. No five whiplashes per round, regardless of DEX.

Edited September 20, 2016 by RosenMcStern

[Haimji]

Thank you

So, in RQ2, if a fighter get SR6 and SR7, he can't strike in the same round because first strike will be at SR 6 and second one at SR 13 (above SR 12)

But in RQ3, he can strike at SR6 then at SR 9 (6 + 3).

What rules do you prefer guys? Which one is better?

[Zit]

That's it.

 

I don't know RQ3 so well, so as far as RQ2 is concerned, to complete what has been said:

The fighter with SR6 may attack twice with this same weapon, provided he has at least 100% proficiency : first strike at SR6, second strike at SR6+6 = 12. You don't have to add another +5..

However, all SR are assuming a ready weapon. If not ready, you have to add a flat +5 to pull the sword or draw the arrow... Therefore, when using a missile attack, e.g. the bow, after having shot your first missile, you must add + 5 to draw and nock the second arrow. So if you have Bow SR3, you can shoot at SR3, then draw an arrow and shoot again at SR = 3 (first shoot) +5 (draw the 2nd arrow) +3 (shoot the second arrow)=11

 

Personally, I'm not so found of details that I prefer a rule over the other one. I think both are simple and work. I'm just afraid that we'll soon need some new pop corns, since this is one of the favorite debate for the RQ fans (together with experience rolls and Ducks).

 

[RosenMcStern]

Both rules have an inherent problem: they affirm that someone with long arms and long weapons can strike twice in a round, even when he is clumsy, while Sam the Halfling with two shortswords cannot. Try to visualize the scene and you will see what is wrong in these rules. Big fighters with long weapons hit earlier, but not more frequently.

However, the RQ2 rule emphasizes this more, as a normal weapon user (SR 7) cannot strike twice, while in RQ being unable to "dual wield" happens much more rarely. So it sounds less penalising to use the RQ3 approach of adding a fixed delay (say 3 SR with a 10 SR round, perhaps it should become 5 with a 12 SR round).

[Haimji]

51 minutes ago, Zit said:

That's it.

 

I don't know RQ3 so well, so as far as RQ2 is concerned, to complete what has been said:

The fighter with SR6 may attack twice with this same weapon, provided he has at least 100% proficiency : first strike at SR6, second strike at SR6+6 = 12. You don't have to add another +5..

However, all SR are assuming a ready weapon. If not ready, you have to add a flat +5 to pull the sword or draw the arrow... Therefore, when using a missile attack, e.g. the bow, after having shot your first missile, you must add + 5 to draw and nock the second arrow. So if you have Bow SR3, you can shoot at SR3, then draw an arrow and shoot again at SR = 3 (first shoot) +5 (draw the 2nd arrow) +3 (shoot the second arrow)=11

 

Personally, I'm not so found of details that I prefer a rule over the other one. I think both are simple and work. I'm just afraid that we'll soon need some new pop corns, since this is one of the favorite debate for the RQ fans (together with experience rolls and Ducks).

 

Ok, thanks, my issue is with a character using 1h spear and 1h sword. The 2 weapons are ready.

I didn't know about these dabate, so i gonna make some pop corns too. i prefer mine with caramel.

 

31 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

Both rules have an inherent problem: they affirm that someone with long arms and long weapons can strike twice in a round, even when he is clumsy, while Sam the Halfling with two shortswords cannot. Try to visualize the scene and you will see what is wrong in these rules. Big fighters with long weapons hit earlier, but not more frequently.

You are right.

But a long weapons can been used twice if the fighter is very good. see this :

The issue is for a fighter with 2 weapons, like the hobbit is your example.

 

 

[RosenMcStern]

Multiple hits with the same weapon are subsumed in one single attack roll in RuneQuest. A long weapon user can hit several times, but not more frequently than a short user. Moreover, it is very hard to parry a two weapon user with a single weapon (weapon #2 strikes while weapon #1 engages the parrying weapon), so giving an advantage to a two-weapon user is logical. The rationale behind this rule is this.

A character using a 1h spear and a 1h sword: assuming you hit at SR 7 with the spear, he can hit at SR 10 with the sword if he forfeits the parry.

Edited September 20, 2016 by RosenMcStern

[Zit]

28 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

Multiple hits with the same weapon are subsumed in one single attack roll in RuneQuest.

I don't think so. Feints, fake attacks are included in a single attack roll, but only one -hopefully- lethal strike which you place at last. Like in fencing. If you want to strike more than once, use the SR+SR rule.

 

39 minutes ago, Haimji said:

But a long weapons can been used twice if the fighter is very good.
 

"If the fighter is very good", that is has 100+% proficiency, the rule says.

House-ruling is also a most favorite activity of d100-players

[Mugen]

2 hours ago, Haimji said:

Thank you

So, in RQ2, if a fighter get SR6 and SR7, he can't strike in the same round because first strike will be at SR 6 and second one at SR 13 (above SR 12)

But in RQ3, he can strike at SR6 then at SR 9 (6 + 3).

What rules do you prefer guys? Which one is better?

Usually, the answer to this question is "I prefer the rule in the RQ edition which I learned first".

So... I prefer the RQ3 version.

Basically, having 2 weapons mean more versatility, as you can parry or attack once with each weapon.

[Pentallion]

4 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

Both rules have an inherent problem: they affirm that someone with long arms and long weapons can strike twice in a round, even when he is clumsy, while Sam the Halfling with two shortswords cannot. Try to visualize the scene and you will see what is wrong in these rules. Big fighters with long weapons hit earlier, but not more frequently.

However, the RQ2 rule emphasizes this more, as a normal weapon user (SR 7) cannot strike twice, while in RQ being unable to "dual wield" happens much more rarely. So it sounds less penalising to use the RQ3 approach of adding a fixed delay (say 3 SR with a 10 SR round, perhaps it should become 5 with a 12 SR round).

Yes, both RQ2 and 3 seem fine on the face of it, until your size 8 high dex guy can't swing twice a round in RQ2 but he can in RQ3, then you realize that RQ3 rules for SR are actually better.  But other than that one outlier, both systems work admirably.

[MJ Sadique]

10 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

This is a total misinterpretation of the rules.

Nope, this is a carefully reading of the rules... because in the very first part of the fighting chapter there is a "preparing your weapon" which clearly said you need 3SR (will stick to english term) to take the arrow (from you quiver) and get it in you bow. But who ever said you need to take take each arrow from your quiver ??? NO ONE.

I said in "excellent conditions" : which mean, like in reality you don't let you arrow in the quiver, you prepare theme before-hand :
-Mongols fighters had a peculiar technique to grab them in the hand to shoot them faster (FIRE RATE : 12 arrow in less than 18sec)
-Spartans like ancient Greek had a lot of servants which helps the shooters so they can fast shoot at triple rate than usual
-RQ rules are based at the longbow fire rate of 15 arrows by minutes max so 3 arrow per 12sec (one round)
So you can forget the 3SR between each attack which give 1 attack each SR without the usual 3SR for taking the arrow !!! It's not interpretation of the rules, it's confronting the rule to REALITY ! and reality always win !

Dont' believe me, in less than 5min i found proof : look at the video down page : http://www.benjaminrose.com/post/archery-speed-shooting-techniques-part-2/

In all RUNEQUEST 3, you need 3SR between two actions ! WHY 3SR ? : because it's the most common DEX's SR modifier : writing 3SR is simplier than write down DEX Strike rank modifier everywhere. And if you think taking an object take always 3SR for people with a dex of 5 to 36, than you must have a problem !!! (Very first think my first GM told me).

So I perhaps over-Interpretate the rules but I'm pretty sure I'm right and if you can justify that a DEX 36 PC take the same time to take an arrow in his quiver as someone who have DEX of 5 than go ahead !

I CAN DO MORE : RuneQuest 3 Land of Ninja, RuneLord MODE :  With the KI, you can do an attack at each SR after you first attack (if you start at SR 1+) so 10 attack per round x SWEEP ATTACK (Naginata or hallebard can hit up to 3 target with 75% of damage) = maximum of 30 hits, 75% damage at all target in range ! a bit extrem, yes but in RQ3 you are more a runelord than never !

 

For the whip, I agree I use the wrong word and I apologize but Indiana jones whip is not a weapon to me, just a tool... I was thinking of using the chainwhip or Manrikigusari (yes I often play vormain/samurai) which is a melee weapon with ranged abilities so a bit "out of the regular rules" weapons : you need one action to attack at distance and another to take it back ! and it can be use as a whip or a lasso (it's written in the rule). More that, it's a regular 2 weapons in one which doesn't exist in RQ2.

 

[MJ Sadique]

One last clue for Haimji : You can read Monster Coliseum (Maître des runes en français) because there is the best description of fighters using 2 weapons or even using net (little rule that can do the trick). Land of Ninja is an excellent book for two weapons holders because there is the Miyamoto Musashi technique : NITO-Kenjustsu ! and a lot more ! Viking is also a good reading because the berserker is played in very clever way using axes as ranged weapons or two hands fights (it's even giving is usual strategy in the berserker sheet).

No need to say : my 3 favorites books XD

[SDLeary]

2 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Dont' believe me, in less than 5min i found proof : look at the video down page : http://www.benjaminrose.com/post/archery-speed-shooting-techniques-part-2/

 

The issue with these tests is that all distances are essentially point blank. Most static time for an archer is aiming, and the further out the target is, the longer that normally takes. It also looks like the first archer is using a light bow (low draw weight) and is not drawing the arrow completely. It increases his ROF, but at the expense of energy transferred to the arrow.

2 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Land of Ninja is an excellent book for two weapons holders because there is the Miyamoto Musashi technique : NITO-Kenjustsu ! and a lot more !

Are you looking at the Chaosium, or Mongoose version? I just looked at my Chaosium boxed set, and can find no reference that modifies the normal combat sequence without utilizing Ki. The Ni-To-Kenjutsu skill, is simply a single skill that gives you the same % to use swords in either hand rather than a separate skill for each.

SDLeary

[Haimji]

2 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

One last clue for Haimji : You can read Monster Coliseum (Maître des runes en français) because there is the best description of fighters using 2 weapons or even using net (little rule that can do the trick). Land of Ninja is an excellent book for two weapons holders because there is the Miyamoto Musashi technique : NITO-Kenjustsu ! and a lot more ! 

I got them in french : "Maitre des Runes" and "la voie du sabre". I didn't think to read them for this question, thank you for advice.

[Haimji]

14 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

Missile weapons: the explanation is on page 66 of the RQ 3 Deluxe rules (again it might be another page in different editions) "Missile Weapon Table", under the Rate of fire entry. It is clearly stated that when the weapon has a rate of fire of 1/SR (the highest, as for bows) three strike ranks must be added to the firer's DEX SR before the next shot. Specifically, a DEX 20 archer with a bow can fire on SR 1, 5 and 9 (as specified also in countless published examples of non-player character stats). There is no way a bow can fire ten times per round.

I checked in the book, its page 67 in french edition, you are right. Same in RQ2 with +5 SR.

3 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

I said in "excellent conditions" : which mean, like in reality you don't let you arrow in the quiver, you prepare theme before-hand :
-Mongols fighters had a peculiar technique to grab them in the hand to shoot them faster (FIRE RATE : 12 arrow in less than 18sec)
-Spartans like ancient Greek had a lot of servants which helps the shooters so they can fast shoot at triple rate than usual
-RQ rules are based at the longbow fire rate of 15 arrows by minutes max so 3 arrow per 12sec (one round)
So you can forget the 3SR between each attack which give 1 attack each SR without the usual 3SR for taking the arrow !!! It's not interpretation of the rules, it's confronting the rule to REALITY ! and reality always win !

RQ3 are writing for a archer who take his arrow one by one from his quiver. You are right about this. But how many arrow can you get in your hand without effect on yours shots? In videos, i see archers firing to very close target. So you can imagine to give a -5% for each arrow in hand, for example. And what about range? If you shot really quick, you can't draw your bow enought to shot long distance.

yes reality wins, but in a game, we need to have simple rules (for my opinion). Thats why i prefer RQ2/RQ3 to others ones like RQ6 or RQawful. But really thank you, MJ Sadique, i just rode rules about fishnet in "Le Maitre des Runes", thats will be helpfull because my first scenario will be at badside in Pavis.

[Mugen]

9 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Are you looking at the Chaosium, or Mongoose version? I just looked at my Chaosium boxed set, and can find no reference that modifies the normal combat sequence without utilizing Ki. The Ni-To-Kenjutsu skill, is simply a single skill that gives you the same % to use swords in either hand rather than a separate skill for each.

SDLeary

It seems I've always misunderstood this skill. I always thought it was a skill for attacking and parrying with an off-hand wakizashi, and that your main hand was still using the kenjutsu skill.

But after re-reading the skill, I think you're right.

[Mugen]

8 hours ago, Haimji said:

Thats why i prefer RQ2/RQ3 to others ones like RQ6 or RQawful.

Really ? I view RQ6 as simpler than RQ3 on many levels. For instance, combat special effects are a good way to handle with one rule situations that all need a special rule in RQ3.

[NickMiddleton]

So did no one else use the RQ1/2 rule where after the initial round, you drop SIZ and weapon length from Strike Rank, and only use DEX SR?

Nick

[Mankcam]

I think we may have initially played it that way when when we first played RQ2 in the mid 1980s, although my older cousin was the main GM back then. I became a GM when we updated to RQ3 and I don't remember playing the SR system that way. I think we just found it simpler keeping the same SR for multiple melee rounds.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Mankcam

[DreadDomain]

1 hour ago, NickMiddleton said:

So did no one else use the RQ1/2 rule where after the initial round, you drop SIZ and weapon length from Strike Rank, and only use DEX SR?

Nick

Was that an official rule? I remember playing that way in RQ3 but I didn't remember we borrowed it from RQ2.

[MJ Sadique]

3 hours ago, Mugen said:

It seems I've always misunderstood this skill. I always thought it was a skill for attacking and parrying with an off-hand wakizashi, and that your main hand was still using the kenjutsu skill.

But after re-reading the skill, I think you're right.

You're not **really** mistaken : the problem with every skill's description is : it just describe the basic meaning and usage of a skill. In reality, Nito kenjutsu is used in a more vast way and a lot of fighting skill in Land Of Ninja are under-rated because you cannot explain in few words what niten ryu justu is in reality (it's the GM job to fill the blanks). Let me clarify this, most techniques skills in the main book have 3 avantages (martial art () : give double kick damage, double foot damage & double AP on parry) but Nitokenjustsu give only use 2H weapon as 1H weapon & Use weapon with left arm with no malus. For myself I give it what it really mean and limit it's acquisition as being part of the Niten ryû school ! it's my way to fill the blank.

In the theme of thread "2 weapons => 2-attacks-in-the-same-round" you need too skills main_weapon (right hand) + main_weapon (left hand) or in the Land of Ninja way : Main weapon + Two swords usage skill. The latter is simplier, more manageable and also more logic if you often use two weapons. Don't forget that in RQ and Basic, creating a new skill is possible, it's part of the system, the problem is to not create a broken or "duplicate skill that already exist".

[Haimji]

3 hours ago, Mugen said:

Really ? I view RQ6 as simpler than RQ3 on many levels. For instance, combat special effects are a good way to handle with one rule situations that all need a special rule in RQ3.

Combat special effects are the only simples rules on RQ6, animism, theism etc are awful. And Actions system is really hard to manage, i used it but i really prefer the RQ2/RQ3 one.

21 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

In the theme of thread "2 weapons => 2-attacks-in-the-same-round" you need too skills main_weapon (right hand) + main_weapon (left hand) or in the Land of Ninja way : Main weapon + Two swords usage skill. The latter is simplier, more manageable and also more logic if you often use two weapons. Don't forget that in RQ and Basic, creating a new skill is possible, it's part of the system, the problem is to not create a broken or "duplicate skill that already exist".

I gonna not say "simplier" but yes more realistic and manageable, yes.