What is the difference between RuneQuest Classic and Mythras Core Rules?

[Raven Shadowz]

Hello,

 

 Could someone please tell me the difference between RuneeQuest Classic and Mythras Core Rules?  Please and thank you.

 

So sorry I meant to enter this topic under RuneQuest.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Raven Shadowz

[GianniVacca]

Well, they are like the two ends of the d100 spectrum: RQ Classic is the re-printing of the original 1978 RQ rules (whence all the other d100-based systems originate); Mythras [formerly RQ6] is the latest incarnation of the d100 rules -- or rather "was" because we're expecting the new version of RQ by the Chaosium any time now.

[groovyclam]

Another difference is that RuneQuest Classic is set in its own fantasy world ( Glorantha ) and Mythras Core Rules is designed to be set in any historic place ( fantasy or "real" ) upto any pre-gunpowder weapon period (-ish).

Mythras expands on the the RuneQuest Classic base rules ( for character creation, combat and magic systems ) but strips out the "Glorantha" to make the rules fit any historical setting you might want.

You can download the "Mythras Imperative" PDF for free to get a taste of the full Mythras rules.

Edited September 25, 2016 by groovyclam

[Pentallion]

As far as system changes, besides the aforementioned that Classic is rooted in Glorantha, there are some very profound changes in the philosophical approach made in RQ6.  RQ 6/Mhythras nerfs combat to make it less deadly.  They do this in a number of ways.  First off, they add Luck Points which can be used to change a die roll.  They also remove total hit points so that players are less likely to die.  They have lowered damage rolls by weakening the strength bonuses and sometimes even the weapon damage is slightly lower.  They also add in special effects that make it more likely for an opponent to surrender rather than fight to the death.  Magic is also greatly nerfed so as to be less dangerous.

The result, while making player character deaths less likely to happen, also makes it impossible to simulate some of the heroic actions that take place on Glorantha, such as the slaying of the Crimson Bat.

Also, combat in Mythras takes much longer, however many feel that it is more cinematic because of its special effects.

For GMs who have known mostly RQ6, this is how they love it.  For RQ 6 GM's trying out RQ 2 for the first time, they tend to wipe out much of their party while learning the ropes in what is a much more deadly system.  Then they make the mistake of trying to put luck points into it which will not work for a system not designed from the ground up for luck points like Mythras is.  In fact, one of the only complaints about RQ 2 in the old days was how easy it was for your character to die.  This is what led to Mythras making the game less deadly.  Many people, however, prefer RQ 2 for this very reason.  My group of players, for instance, have tried Mythras in several instances, playing in Glorantha, playing Classic Fantasy, playing Luther Arkwright.  They have to a man - and woman - stated that they absolutely despise luck points and are always very vocally happy when I finally relent and convert our campaigns back to RQ 3.  They'd rather have total hit points, no luck points and be far easier to kill than have no sense of ever being in any real danger.

I think that says volumes and am very happy with the direction that the next edition of RQ is heading.

Oh, and another thing my group of gamers and many you'll find on these boards also dislike about Mythras is that you don't check off the skills you use for improvement.  In Mythras, you get to roll to go up in 3 skills of your choice, regardless of how much or how little you did or whether you even used those skills.  None of my players like that system at all and I'm one of the more strict GM's on what skills my players get to check.  Also, in Mythras you get to roll to improve after every session, in Classic RQ, you only get to roll to improve after a game week has transpired.  In my campaigns, my players would get to roll to go up much more often in Mythras than in RQ yet they still preferred the latter system, stating that it made their successful rolls feel more important.

I can only speak for my group of players and myself.  I think both systems have their pros and cons and would happily GM either one, but I prefer to GM RQ 2/3.  Others on these boards may prefer Mythras and that is fine.  Try both systems and see which one is right for you.  I'd guess that for new GMs Mythras is the easiest not to screw up as it is very hard to kill off characters and I know for a fact that new GMs have a hard time with that in RQ 2 until they get more games under their belts and start to figure out what is needed to keep their players characters alive.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Pentallion

[Mugen]

There are a lot of differences between both games. In fact, it's easier to make a list of what make them similar...

Both are skill-based games that use d100 rolls under a skill value as their base system.

Both use the same array of 7 characteristics as the basis of character definition.

Both use localized hit points : each humanoid body is split in 7 parts, and each part has a hit points number. RQ Classic also has a generic hit points score, which reflects one's whole body condition.

Neither use the concepts of classes and levels.

RQ Classic is more simple, I think, but suffers from poor organization of the book, and bad explanations.

Mythras is richer, but is more difficult to master. I suggest buying and reading Mongoose's Legend first, which is the first edition -or beta version- of Mythras.

Also, Mythras has Sorcery, which allows to play traditional D&D magic-users, and Mysticism, which allows to play shaolin monks and jedi-type characters.

Both have systems for "common magic", available to anyone, divine magic, available by worshiping a god, and animism, which consists in summoning and binding non-corporeal "magical" beings.

 

[lawrence.whitaker]

In the interests of balance, I shall politely disagree with most of Pentallion's assessments of Mythras, and address a few of the points he raises.

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As far as system changes, besides the aforementioned that Classic is rooted in Glorantha, there are some very profound changes in the philosophical approach made in RQ6.  RQ 6/Mhythras nerfs combat to make it less deadly.  They do this in a number of ways.  First off, they add Luck Points which can be used to change a die roll.  They also remove total hit points so that players are less likely to die. 

Mythras combat is still deadly, but it includes many options that mean that combat doesn't always have to result in total carnage (which Pentallion seems to think is the point of any combat) for one side tor other. Fights can, and do, end for a variety of the reasons other than the outright death of one participant or another. Incapacitation is a far more common reason for a fight ending which is, funnily enough, how most fights in real life tend to end. This also means combats in Mythras tend to be over faster, because the end game isn't reliant on reducing Hit Points to zero or less.

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They have lowered damage rolls by weakening the strength bonuses and sometimes even the weapon damage is slightly lower.  They also add in special effects that make it more likely for an opponent to surrender rather than fight to the death. 

Damage rolls are commensurate with Hit Point per location scores, and one can very easily die from the right wound to the right location. Now, had we increased locational Hit Points while reducing weapon damage, then there'd be a valid point here, but weapon damage and hit points are balanced consistently, so it's a non-issue. And, with Special Effects, there's less of a need to rely on weapon damage to inflict nasty results (such as Impale and Bleed, for example).

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Magic is also greatly nerfed so as to be less dangerous

Folk Magic, which equates to RQ Classic's Battle Magic is less powerful. But the four other magic systems (Animism, Mysticism, Theism and Sorcery) are much more powerful, despite what Pentallion says. Strangely, Mythras's Theism comes in for criticism of being too powerful...

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The result, while making player character deaths less likely to happen, also makes it impossible to simulate some of the heroic actions that take place on Glorantha, such as the slaying of the Crimson Bat.

Yet the Luck Points Pentallion bemoans actually allow for many incredibly Heroic Acts and would absolutely allow for the slaying of creatures like the Crimson Bat, depending very much on the circumstances and the GM. And, of course, if one felt that taking on the Crimson Bat in single combat was a sensible idea in the first place.

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Also, combat in Mythras takes much longer, however many feel that it is more cinematic because of its special effects.

Really, it doesn't. Special Effects reduce combat in Mythras. Pentallion's clearly had contrary experiences, but the vast consensus of Mythras players and GMs is that combat is faster, more dynamic and strangely more satisfying for all the reasons Pentallion feels it isn't.

Mythras Imperative is our free entry into the Mythras system and the best thing is download a copy (www.thedesignmechanism.com/downloads) and give it go. RQ Classic is an extremely fine game, but Mythras does, indeed, take a different approach that you may - or may not - like. The best thing is always test it out for yourself and find the system that suits your playing style.

[soltakss]

In my experience of using Special Effects, they slow the game down in two ways:

Player Unfamiliarity - having to look up what each Special Effect does each time they are used slows down the game

Too many choices - Whenever our players have choices, they take ages weighing up the things to be chosen

 

So, they can slow the game down, but I would expect that a group of players who are used to Special Effects and know which ones they like to use, combat should be faster and easier.

[Pentallion]

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In my experience of using Special Effects, they slow the game down in two ways:

Player Unfamiliarity - having to look up what each Special Effect does each time they are used slows down the game

Too many choices - Whenever our players have choices, they take ages weighing up the things to be chosen

 

So, they can slow the game down, but I would expect that a group of players who are used to Special Effects and know which ones they like to use, combat should be faster and easier.

The newly released Combat Cards do a great job in addressing this issue and are a fantastic idea.

Lawrence: Sorry if I came across as harsh towards Mythras.  I love the game and support it fully.  As I said, I would happily GM either system.  I was simply pointing out the things that MY group prefers and why.  I keep trying to push Mythras rules on them and they keep rejecting them for the reasons I stated.  As I said, people should try both systems and see what they like best.

And carnage is not what I'm after.  STRESS from the threat of carnage is what I and my group feel luck points take away from the game.  They're a masochistic sort and actually LIKE having characters that are easily squished, go figure.  But I also enjoy not having to roll up new characters and that isn't a problem with Mythras, which allows for greater story telling.

So I guess what I was trying to say to the OP is that with RQ2/3 it's easier to kill off characters.  With Mythras it is harder.  So a GM has to be more careful with RQ2/3 if he wants to avoid that.  But the trade off is that there is less tension in the games with Mythras and if you play with a bunch of adrenaline junkies like I do, they'll find it less appealing.

Both are very good games so it really comes down to which style you prefer.

[Raven Shadowz]

I would like to thank every one who has answered my question. Now I know which system I prefer. 

[soltakss]

9 minutes ago, Raven Shadowz said:

I would like to thank every one who has answered my question. Now I know which system I prefer. 

Pray tell!

[Raven Shadowz]

Just now, soltakss said:

Pray tell!

RuneQuest Classic is the system I prefer. 

[lawrence.whitaker]

You'll have a lot of fun with it. The 'Classic' epithet is well deserved.

[Raven Shadowz]

3 hours ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

You'll have a lot of fun with it. The 'Classic' epithet is well deserved.

I'm sure I shall 

[Mankcam]

I could ramble on all day about the many subjective pros and cons of both systems, but it would probably just kick off a flame war. Both systems are versions of BRP, which means they are both great.

Have fun 

Edited September 26, 2016 by Mankcam

[Raven Shadowz]

2 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I could ramble on all day about the many subjective pros and cons of both systems, but it would probably just kick off a flame war. Both systems are versions of BRP, which means they are both great.

Have fun 

Thank you very much 

[Mugen]

Fact is there are mote than 2 versions of RuneQuest available and to chose from, not counting OpenQuest, which is a simplified RuneQuest 3.

My own version would be a patchwork of 3rd and Mythras, with bits from Legend, personally.

[Raven Shadowz]

6 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Fact is there are mote than 2 versions of RuneQuest available and to chose from, not counting OpenQuest, which is a simplified RuneQuest 3.

My own version would be a patchwork of 3rd and Mythras, with bits from Legend, personally.

 Thank you, I have only played AD&D, Pathfinder and Call of Cthulhu, so I was researching about RuneQuest, and on the  Chaosium website, it only shows the PDF of 1st Edition RuneQuest and RuneQuest Classic, so during my research I saw all the different versions of RuneQuest and seeing Mythras having basically the same cover. It was very confusing, when I could not get a google answer, I was told I could get an answer here.  

[groovyclam]

Just to help Raven with the pedigree of the game and editions:

RuneQuest 1st Edition issued by Chaosium ( now available on Chaosium site ) known in the community as RQ1

It became RuneQuest 2nd Edition ( now available as "RuneQuest Classic" on Chaosium site ) - 2nd Ed was pretty similar to 1st Ed and both were set in Glorantha. It is abbreviated in the community as RQ2.

RuneQuest 3rd Edition rules was sold as a boxed set in the US and two hardbacks in the UK ( issued by Avalon Hill and Games Workshop respectively under license from Chaosium, neither of these are available any more except as used items ). 3rd Ed stripped Glorantha out of the core rules to allow for a generic fantasy/olde-worlde setting but Glorantha supplements were issued under the line if you wanted to still play in Glorantha. The rules evolved again with some players not liking the changes and some liking them.

At this point Chaosium lost the rights to RuneQuest/Glorantha ( don't ask - or read Wikipedia about Chaosium ). The rights were held by a company called Issaries Inc.

A company called Mongoose licensed the rights and released, what is usually called on the internet, Mongoose RuneQuest 1st Edition ( i.e. MRQ1 or MRQI ) but the book is just called "RuneQuest". Again this was a generic product but Glorantha supplements were released too. The ruleset is not thought of very highly.

Mongoose released a second version of the RuneQuest rules called "RuneQuest II" ( abbreviated in the community as MRQ2 or MRQII ). This was not an evolution of their MRQ1 rules but a complete rewrite ( by the same two guys who today produce and sell Mythras ). Still a generic product but again with Glorantha supplements.

Mongoose stopped licensing the RuneQuest name at this point but, not wanting to waste good product, they removed the word "RuneQuest" from their "RuneQuest II" product line books and changed it to "Legend". You can get this line of Legend books from Mongoose still.

The two authors who wrote the Mongoose RuneQuest II rulebook now formed their own company - The Design Mechanism - and licensed the RuneQuest/Glorantha property from Issaries Inc. and issued the rulebook for "RuneQuest 6th Edition". This used their original MRQ2/Legend ruleset and improved on it. 

At this point the rights to the name "RuneQuest" and all the Glorantha intellectual property moved back to Chaosium Inc. from Issaries Inc. ( again, read Wikipedia ). So Chaosium have decided not to licence the product anymore but issue their own ruleset and Glorantha products once more. They are currently working on a new rulebook which will just be called "RuneQuest" once more ( but inside the company it is considered RQ4 - disregarding the Mongoose and Design Mechanism editions ).

To distinguish this new, upcoming version of RuneQuest they renamed the original Chaosium 2nd Edition version "RuneQuest Classic" when they recently re-printed it and gave it a bit of a facelift.

Phew, meanwhile The Design Mechanism, not wanting to waste their work have renamed their RuneQuest version 6 rulebook "Mythras" ( and also tweaked the rules very, very slightly ). So Mythras' pedigree is actually MRQ2->Legend->RQ6->Mythras

The new, as yet unreleased, version of Chaosium's RuneQuest will be: RQ1->RQ2->RQ3->new unreleased RQ4 ( although I believe very little of RQ3 will be included in RQ4 )

RuneQuest Classic's pedigree is: RQ1->RQ2->via facelift, no rule changes->RQ Classic

Hope this helps.

[Mankcam]

To further complicate matters, there is also OpenQuest and MagicWorld...and that's just the Fantasy genre 

But I would say for Raven's purposes, just go with Mythras, or wait for the new version of RuneQuest to be published next year.

(If impatient then possibly get RQ Classic, but remember it's a nostalgic reprint of a 30 yr old rule set. However the supplements will apparently be fully compatible with the new version of RQ, so the product line is well worth it for the Gloranthan campaign settings)

Edited September 26, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mugen]

I would definitely add OpenQuest to the list of RuneQuest editions, as it is a game that was specifically created to reproduce its creator's experiences with RuneQuest 3, with a simpler ruleset.

Its combat system is slightly more complex than Call of Cthulhu (which is not true of any edition of RuneQuest), and it has very simple versions of Battle/Spirit magic, Divine magic and Sorcery.

Anyway, if someone specifically wants to play a game in Glorantha, RuneQuest 2 and the next RuneQuest are the best options...

[Raven Shadowz]

4 hours ago, groovyclam said:

Just to help Raven with the pedigree of the game and editions:

RuneQuest 1st Edition issued by Chaosium ( now available on Chaosium site ) known in the community as RQ1

It became RuneQuest 2nd Edition ( now available as "RuneQuest Classic" on Chaosium site ) - 2nd Ed was pretty similar to 1st Ed and both were set in Glorantha. It is abbreviated in the community as RQ2.

RuneQuest 3rd Edition rules was sold as a boxed set in the US and two hardbacks in the UK ( issued by Avalon Hill and Games Workshop respectively under license from Chaosium, neither of these are available any more except as used items ). 3rd Ed stripped Glorantha out of the core rules to allow for a generic fantasy/olde-worlde setting but Glorantha supplements were issued under the line if you wanted to still play in Glorantha. The rules evolved again with some players not liking the changes and some liking them.

At this point Chaosium lost the rights to RuneQuest/Glorantha ( don't ask - or read Wikipedia about Chaosium ). The rights were held by a company called Issaries Inc.

A company called Mongoose licensed the rights and released, what is usually called on the internet, Mongoose RuneQuest 1st Edition ( i.e. MRQ1 or MRQI ) but the book is just called "RuneQuest". Again this was a generic product but Glorantha supplements were released too. The ruleset is not thought of very highly.

Mongoose released a second version of the RuneQuest rules called "RuneQuest II" ( abbreviated in the community as MRQ2 or MRQII ). This was not an evolution of their MRQ1 rules but a complete rewrite ( by the same two guys who today produce and sell Mythras ). Still a generic product but again with Glorantha supplements.

Mongoose stopped licensing the RuneQuest name at this point but, not wanting to waste good product, they removed the word "RuneQuest" from their "RuneQuest II" product line books and changed it to "Legend". You can get this line of Legend books from Mongoose still.

The two authors who wrote the Mongoose RuneQuest II rulebook now formed their own company - The Design Mechanism - and licensed the RuneQuest/Glorantha property from Issaries Inc. and issued the rulebook for "RuneQuest 6th Edition". This used their original MRQ2/Legend ruleset and improved on it. 

At this point the rights to the name "RuneQuest" and all the Glorantha intellectual property moved back to Chaosium Inc. from Issaries Inc. ( again, read Wikipedia ). So Chaosium have decided not to licence the product anymore but issue their own ruleset and Glorantha products once more. They are currently working on a new rulebook which will just be called "RuneQuest" once more ( but inside the company it is considered RQ4 - disregarding the Mongoose and Design Mechanism editions ).

To distinguish this new, upcoming version of RuneQuest they renamed the original Chaosium 2nd Edition version "RuneQuest Classic" when they recently re-printed it and gave it a bit of a facelift.

Phew, meanwhile The Design Mechanism, not wanting to waste their work have renamed their RuneQuest version 6 rulebook "Mythras" ( and also tweaked the rules very, very slightly ). So Mythras' pedigree is actually MRQ2->Legend->RQ6->Mythras

The new, as yet unreleased, version of Chaosium's RuneQuest will be: RQ1->RQ2->RQ3->new unreleased RQ4 ( although I believe very little of RQ3 will be included in RQ4 )

RuneQuest Classic's pedigree is: RQ1->RQ2->via facelift, no rule changes->RQ Classic

Hope this helps.

This was awesome of you, thank you for this history lesson on RQ

[Raven Shadowz]

3 hours ago, Mankcam said:

To further complicate matters, there is also OpenQuest and MagicWorld...and that's just the Fantasy genre 

But I would say for Raven's purposes, just go with Mythras, or wait for the new version of RuneQuest to be published next year.

(If impatient then possibly get RQ Classic, but remember it's a nostalgic reprint of a 30 yr old rule set. However the supplements will apparently be fully compatible with the new version of RQ, so the product line is well worth it for the Gloranthan campaign settings)

 Thank you very much for your answer

[Raven Shadowz]

30 minutes ago, Mugen said:

I would definitely add OpenQuest to the list of RuneQuest editions, as it is a game that was specifically created to reproduce its creator's experiences with RuneQuest 3, with a simpler ruleset.

Its combat system is slightly more complex than Call of Cthulhu (which is not true of any edition of RuneQuest), and it has very simple versions of Battle/Spirit magic, Divine magic and Sorcery.

Anyway, if someone specifically wants to play a game in Glorantha, RuneQuest 2 and the next RuneQuest are the best options...

Thank you very much

[Raven Shadowz]

15 hours ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

You'll have a lot of fun with it. The 'Classic' epithet is well deserved.

As much as I love AD&D I'm sure I will

[Zit]

Just keep in mind that surrender or run away comes much more often as the best option in Runequest (and in general in D100 games) than in AD&D. Well prepared tactics can save the day. This brings true adrenaline to the game, as Pentallion noticed.