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Maslo : what do they look like?


Manu

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Given their largely coastal dwellings, jewelry will likely be of shells or coral, perhaps traded with the local ludoch.  There's no wool, so expect that most clothes will be made of fibrous plants (e.g. palm leaves) woven and braided together.  And, of course, there will be woven necklaces of flowers (at least in Elamle where they trade with the elves)!

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3 minutes ago, Lord High Munchkin said:

they seem to be dressed as Mayans (sadly with European physical features).

As noted in an earlier post in this thread, I'd be disinclined to go with the European physical features.  I might blend Mayan dress into the picture, though maybe moreso in Flanch than Elamle.  Those travelling the seas and coasts for fish and trade will probably wear little more than loin cloths or short skirts.

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5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I don't tend to see the Maslo as wealthy and cosmopolitan - there's only one city (Westel) larger than a small city in either peninsula, and it's only a large city.  Where many of the cities are also overrun regularly by chaotic monsters (in Elamle) or elves (in Onlaks/Flanch), there's little opportunity to develop that level of culture.

Maslo has two regional trade centres (Westel and Charth) and has a trading settlement on Teleos.  The Flanchi war against the Elves is to me one of a stalemate more than anything else.  Yanchi is overrun every summer but is described as an important and prosperous port while the other city have a variety of methods to avoid being overrun (caves, salt).  Elamle has problems with the spawn of the mother of monsters but to describe their cities as regularly overrun is I think too much.

So Maslo is wealthy. 

You suggest that because there has been little time since the Opening, they can't have developed a cosmopolitan culture.  My thinking is because they have so much wealth (compared to the closing days) they are willing to spend big in acquiring foreign fashions.

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12 hours ago, metcalph said:

So Maslo is wealthy. 

Wealthy compared to ???  It is 1/10th the population of Fonrit, 1/2 that of Umathela, both of which have either multiple metropolis or large cities.  

Charth is not a regional trade center.  As the guide notes: "Charth is isolated from other civilized lands by 375 miles of jungled coastline. It is rarely visited by outsiders."

I agree with you that Westel at 18k people has some reasonable cultural development given that "The city consists of hundreds of artificial islands linked by a network of canals. Most islands are covered with trade warehouses or the houses of commoners; at the center of the city is the Grand Harbor and the opulent temple-palace of the Dynast."

Their ports are certainly active since the Opening and they are likely to have unusual goods for trade (and have maintained their sea-going position since their victory at Oenriko Rocks).  But there are dangers sailing/trading with Fonrit (malasp, pirates, and Kareeshtans happy to turn them into slaves) and the East Isles (doom currents, hurricane winds), so trade routes may be iffy, at best.

Yes, cosmopolitan ways from Fonrit or Umathela are likely to be seeping in over the past generation, but most of the Elamle cities have specific traditions in place to keep the elves happy and cooperative and are likely reluctant to deviate if it means loss of that trade.  The Dynast of Flanch may encourage such change (particularly if seen as aiding them against the Onlaks elves), or may see it as a threat.  As the Guide notes "He is getting old, and seems to have given up his dream of an Empire of Flanch. His many sons and daughters compete to prove their
worth as his heir."  So perhaps it is a period of competing interests, both traditional/conservation and cosmopolitan, at present?

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12 hours ago, metcalph said:

developed a cosmopolitan culture

Thinking further on this, the Dynast circumnavigated the oceans three times.  If he was opposed to the new, likely he would have been content with one such voyage.  So, if we think of him as an explorer seeking out the new, then he probably brought back interesting thoughts and ideas with each voyage, which he would then have attempted to implement in Westel.

This would give Westel a cosmopolitan 'appearance'.  But whether he brought back any folk from the places he visited is another question.  Cosmopolitan implies multi-cultural.  Nochet certainly has that with many foreign enclaves present.  Does Westel?  It may be more interesting to see Westel as an attempt to create a 'cosmopolitan' city based on foreign ideas and architecture transplanted home, yet without the 'life' that actually makes it cosmopolitan.

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I guess I would go for Dayak clothing as a baseline, and the general neighborhood of the Malay archipelago for tidbits of cultural detail. I am far from sure what kind of facial features to expect among the Thinobutu-related "Agimori" of northern Pamaltela (surviving in Kumanku, Thinokos, Kimos and Maslo, and disappeared in Loral).

The Outrigger people have a varied stock they bred from. Calling them Agimori has always stuck me as sort of dogmatic, but then the dark skinned pygmy impala riders probably are going by Wareran as well, so there is a wide range of features united in each of the four categories.

As former slaves of among others the Artmali, there is the possibility of some Veldang admixture, though significantly less than in the Torabs. Mythically, some East Islander ancestry might be present as well.

 

One statement about Flanch population still makes me wonder - the huge number of rural Flanchites. I would have thought that the majority of Flanchites would live in cities with special anti-elf defenses and communally maintained girdles of death, with only very little and very precious safe agricultural land, and a diet predominantly based on the offerings of the Maslo Sea, both in meat and plant.

If you were living next to homicidal ecoterrorist maniacs, would you trust any manioc harvested from soil they might have interacted with? Even if you follow the procedures to wash out the poison, you can never be sure that that will be enough. That's why I have significant conceptual problems with a distributed rural population in Flanch. Think Wildlings and White Walkers north of the Wall, you can have either one group or the other.

It is also close to a miracle that the Flanchite culture of fighting the jungle survived Errinoru's Empire.

Over on Elamle, you could probably use the manioc without detoxing it first, thanks to the centuries of cooperation between aldryami and humans. The Elamlites might spend just as much time "weeding" as their Flanchite brethren, but doing so to maintain the forest harmony rather than for protection of their crops.

 

Maslo doesn't seem to have great wealth in metals, but has access to fine lumber - at least over in Elamle. While the Flanchites cut down lots of trees and shrubs and vines, the Garbulian elves would shrewdly keep access to lumber useful for ship-building very limited, possibly only as bait for deadly traps.

BTW, I noticed an discrepancy in the Guide p.602:

Quote

Garbulia’s dryads toiled to hybridize and graft new types of weeds in their jungle stronghold.

 

 

The original text in Missing Lands (and IIRC in Elder Secrets) had Gargulia or Gargualia for the embyli tribe of Flanch prior to the devastation following the collapse of the Errinoru growth. Was this a redactional decision to avoid the confusion that was obviously in Missing Lands?

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Wealthy compared to ???  It is 1/10th the population of Fonrit, 1/2 that of Umathela, both of which have either multiple metropolis or large cities.  

Wealth <> population.  

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Charth is not a regional trade center.  As the guide notes: "Charth is isolated from other civilized lands by 375 miles of jungled coastline. It is rarely visited by outsiders."

It is described as such in the map on p470 of the Guide.  Perhaps Yanchi is meant instead.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I agree with you that Westel at 18k people has some reasonable cultural development

You keep talking about cultural development when I'm talking about wealth.  Cultural development is something nobody can agree upon (is the Doraddi more culturally developed than the Heortling?)  Wealth is something that can be measured.  Flanch is a country that had a fleet that was able to defeat the Vadeli Empire.  Clearly the Maslo isn't a backwater and given its low population compared to Fonrit and even the Eastern Isles, must be doing well on another front.  Hence I'm disinclined to see only Westel as a wealthy port in a backwater and feel that the other ports of Flanch and Elmale must be doing well financially.

 

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54 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It is also close to a miracle that the Flanchite culture of fighting the jungle survived Errinoru's Empire.

I think the original Farnwith culture was exterminated (Guide p602) and that the surviving elf-haters fled to miserable enclaves in Elamle.  When Errinoru's Empire collapsed, they resettled Onlaks rather than labour to support the struggling Novarooplians.  

 

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4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Flanch is a country that had a fleet that was able to defeat the Vadeli Empire.  Clearly the Maslo isn't a backwater and given its low population compared to Fonrit and even the Eastern Isles, must be doing well on another front.  Hence I'm disinclined to see only Westel as a wealthy port in a backwater and feel that the other ports of Flanch and Elmale must be doing well financially.

They have their own magical allies, the Sendereven.  They also were able to maintain a fleet during the Closing which kept up naval traditions, unlike in other areas, and have a long-standing friendship with the ludoch.

I agree that wealth <> population.  Their exports are noted as: Herbs, Cloth, Ivory, Shells, Spices, Wine.  Their imports as: Bronze, Gems, Metalworking, Wine, Silk.  The herbs and spices, likely drawn from nearby jungles, can certainly bring wealth in - the noted bronze, gems, metalworking, and silk.  Is that bringing in foreign fashions?  I'm not convinced, but perhaps that's a YGWV decision.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Calling them Agimori has always stuck me as sort of dogmatic

Agree, I think of them as Thinobutans - distinct from the Agimori.  

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I would have thought that the majority of Flanchites would live in cities

I'd put them in a lot of coastal villages.  Spread out to gain the resources/harvest of the sea and the tidewaters, but protected from attacks.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Maslo doesn't seem to have great wealth in metals, but has access to fine lumber - at least over in Elamle.

True, but may be harder to transport distances than herbs, spices, or rare flowers like unusual orchids.

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On the above: Broad tipped Hermit and Green Tailed Emerald are hummingbird species... The above are early form for my campaign - the color  names being tuned still and same for grammar/syntax.  The runes are runes available for storm pantheon - so have not been optimised for any other pantheons yet..

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48 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

They have their own magical allies, the Sendereven. 

Are they still in contact with any Sendereven other than the spirits of the helmsman and his wife? I doubt it.

48 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

They also were able to maintain a fleet during the Closing which kept up naval traditions, unlike in other areas, and have a long-standing friendship with the ludoch.

Maintaining a fleet is a measure of wealth, especially in warm waters where the boring mussel requires a re-planking every few years, or, in the case of dugouts, the exchange of a hull or two, or the maintenance of spells to prevent that. The original Sendereven vessels are dugouts, though from rock. To maintain a modicum of those magics, the Maslo ships probably are dugouts, too. With the support of the Novarooplia aldryami, getting trees for that might be less expensive than otherwise.

48 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I agree that wealth <> population.  Their exports are noted as: Herbs, Cloth, Ivory, Shells, Spices, Wine.  Their imports as: Bronze, Gems, Metalworking, Wine, Silk.  The herbs and spices, likely drawn from nearby jungles, can certainly bring wealth in - the noted bronze, gems, metalworking, and silk.  Is that bringing in foreign fashions?  I'm not convinced, but perhaps that's a YGWV decision.

They control the seaward trade of the Arliss river traders, which might include silk available from jungle trolls.

I wonder what textile fibre they are producing. Sisal? Hemp? Cotton?

 

54 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Agree, I think of them as Thinobutans - distinct from the Agimori. 

Not that Agimori facial features are that uniform - the Pithdaran sorcerer in the Seshnela chapter tableau as quite the sharp nose. Their variation of skin coloration is corroborated in the Fonrit chapter, where the Thinokans are nicknamed the "light blues". No idea what that does for their social status.

54 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'd put them in a lot of coastal villages.  Spread out to gain the resources/harvest of the sea and the tidewaters, but protected from attacks.

I'd put them in not quite as many smaller fortified towns - and by fortified I mean various lines of defense against the jungle. Possibly concentric rings of salt or brine ditches, too.

 

54 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

True, but may be harder to transport distances than herbs, spices, or rare flowers like unusual orchids.

Not really. Overseas transport of choice wood has a long history, ancient Egypt was a major importer.

 

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

My guess is that men will favor runes of Air and Water, women of Earth and Water.  Moon, Darkness, and Fire in lesser proportions.

I wouldn't underestimate the influence of the Blue Moon. While it might be limited to a small mystical order, the Master of the Tides must have a few disciples in waiting, unless he is a solitary immortal sage.

The Thinokan creator Soli had the sun and earth spirits as helpers, so it might be Fire and Water for men and Earth and Water for women. But then, there are lots of clans with strongly different traditions, so probably elemental associations vary as widely.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I think the original Farnwith culture was exterminated (Guide p602) and that the surviving elf-haters fled to miserable enclaves in Elamle.  When Errinoru's Empire collapsed, they resettled Onlaks rather than labour to support the struggling Novarooplians.  

Farnwith failed in the First Age, and probably was destroyed by Ytarian aldryami rather than Gargulians. Nice try for naming them, though.

Retreating onto their ships into safe harbors away from the jungle does fit their pattern, though. And when the yellow elf jungles suffered from the extinction of their House Errinoru leaders and accompanying diseases, they probably returned triumphantly and struck directly at the denuded trees of the Gargulian dryads.

 

For some reason, Jhostrobbios/Dinal appears to have bypassed both the rise of the Errinoru dynasty and its fall, if its inhabitants (including centuries-old dryads) truly can say that they register no change since the Golden Age.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

They have their own magical allies, the Sendereven. 

Do they?  Because the Guide makes only two Sendeven aiding them in mythical times and does not mention their appearance at Oenriko Rock and other places.

 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

They also were able to maintain a fleet during the Closing which kept up naval traditions, unlike in other areas, and have a long-standing friendship with the ludoch.

They maintained a strong naval tradition but they didn't build a large fleet until after the opening (Guide p145).    Look at this way, in 1582 (two years after the opening) there was a naval engagement between the Holy Country and Alatan that involved nearly a hundred ships.   The Vadeli Empire has been extant for four years, with the resources of Fonrit and Umathela when it encountered the Maslo and fought a naval war that lasted for a further five or six years before Oenriko Rock.  Even if the Vadeli were having spots of bother within their empire, that's quite a mismatch.  

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I agree that wealth <> population.  Their exports are noted as: Herbs, Cloth, Ivory, Shells, Spices, Wine.  Their imports as: Bronze, Gems, Metalworking, Wine, Silk.  The herbs and spices, likely drawn from nearby jungles, can certainly bring wealth in - the noted bronze, gems, metalworking, and silk.  Is that bringing in foreign fashions?  I'm not convinced, but perhaps that's a YGWV decision.

Foreign fashions is cheap to transport.  All it requires is a chest of clothing and the local tailors can pick up the slack (with authentic clothing commanding a premium).  A further example of foreign influence might be Hoom Jhis's title of Dynast.  It's used in Vormain (Guide p539) and may be the eastern isles equivalent of King.  Since the Eastern Islanders were visiting the place as early as the Dawn, their fashions among other things would be longstanding.

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24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

For some reason, Jhostrobbios/Dinal appears to have bypassed both the rise of the Errinoru dynasty and its fall, if its inhabitants (including centuries-old dryads) truly can say that they register no change since the Golden Age.

The actual statement is 

Quote

Many of the beings living in
its depths do not know of the beginning of Time, and
believe themselves to still be in the Gods Age.

Guide p547

Not all of its inhabitants but a significant number (who probably went to sleep during the Great Darkness).

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On 18/10/2016 at 1:25 AM, g33k said:

To be clear I'm understanding:

Does Gloranthan "canon" currently hold the Praxian Agimori to be "man-and-a-half" stature?  I have always interpreted that to mean:

The smallest Agimori was about average-human sized
The "average" Agimori was about the size of the largest regular humans
The largest Agimori are substantially larger than regular humans -- looking eye-to-eye with mounted riders (except High Llama), even looking down to see smaller riders.
Despite the frequent likening to the Zulu tribe, I have presumed the Agimori of Prax to be larger than the "real-world" Zulu.

Are (any or all of) the various peoples (under discussion above) of "man-and-a-half" stature, either as I've laid out above or (if canon says I'm wrong) as otherwise established?

Thank'ee kindly!

As others have said - most Agimori are of normal human size, and are just people of a particular ancestry and skin colour. The Praxian Agimori, the Men and a Half, are a small specific group, and only in Prax would people assume that Agimori are abnormally large or require less water. 

The Agimori myth, as found in Revealed Mythologies, is that the original 333 people, the Agi, were giants who needed no food or water, and did not burn, and never aged, and had no children. Most of them have been died by other means now, but some still live in the desert and are now known as Agitori to distinguish them from the Agimori. They asked Pamalt to change, as they wanted to be fertile and live in a fertile land. By drinking water, some of them became fertile (and the ancestors of all Agimori people) but aged, and needed to eat and drink. The Praxian Agimori are a group who have carefully drunk as little water as possible, and observe other rituals, and so have preserved some of the characteristics (size, strength, limited need for water, fireproof, etc.) of their demigod ancestors. According to them, they left Pamaltela before becoming mortal, and gained mortality from Ernalda not Pamalt, but the chronology on this seems a bit unlikely, so it may or may not be true. 

According to Borderlands, it is possible to be adopted into the Men and A Half and gain most of their unique characteristics (among other things, it makes the drinker grow in stature!) by a ritual that includes drinking a special potion, something that is frequently fatal. I suspect the normal Men and a Half also use this potion in their rituals, especially initiation, but do not run the same risk of death as their lifestyle and inheritance either prepares the user for the drinking at initiation and/or involves regular less extreme consumption as they grow. Its also notable that the Men and a Half attribute all their magic to Lodril (known to them as Baba Ulodr, presumably originally the Pamaltelan Balumbasta not Pelorian Lodril, but also presumably identified with Lodril centuries ago, probably in the First Age), but active Lodril worship is relatively rare amongst them. 

There are a group of Agimori in Laskal who are related to the Praxian Agimori, but I suspect they have (due to drinking more water, due to living in a river valley not a barren desert, etc) not retained as much of their ancestral magic as the Praxian Agimori. They live in the cities of Deshmador and Oron, and the Zuama river valley, and are noted as being strikingly tall. So they may be intermediates between the average Agimori, and the Praxian Agimori. 

The term Doraddi may be used as a synonym for the Agimori, but I tend to use it more as a cultural name. 

 

 

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