How Utopian is Loskalm Really?

[Evilroddy]

To the wise Magi of Glorantha:

I am wondering just how perfect or imperfect Hrestoli Idealism has made Loskaim. How close to utopia are they really? Are there lazy, disinterested, disengaged, criminal, pereverted, greedy, power-crazed or dissenting groups who challenge the primacy and the legitimacy of the Hrestoli Idealistic way? What about chaotic cult penetration? Are there thieves and thieves guilds in Loskalm? Is there smuggling and black marketing there? Do brigands and highway men haunt the roads and trails of Loskalm? Are there rogue wizards and underground networks of magic? Can pagan populations and creeds coexist with Hrestoli Idealism along the frontiers of Loskalm? Are there people who simply do not want to participate in any of the four castes of Loskalmi society? Is there a Loskalmi underclass? Are there any dissident movements against the principles and tenets of the Hrestoli Way? I am not talking about differences within the Hrestoli Creed such as the tensions between the old guard  of Snodal's and Siglath's days and the Young Turks who have arisen since the Ban lifted. I'm talking about people who just don't buy into any of it. Like the Noyaling people of the north or the folks like the Orlanthi Oranori pagans of the south who happen to live within the frontiers of Loskalm? Is there a Loskalmi underground? Some sub rosa subcultures? And no, I don't mean a subway system!

Any insights, whimsical musings, prognostications or ironclad canonical doctrine will be appreciated.

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy 

Edited October 31, 2016 by Evilroddy

[Jeff]

During the Ban, Loskalm's meritocratic caste system truly worked. The wise republic headed by a philosopher-king produced a Golden Age of peace, harmony, and plenty. Men were perfectly governed as they were in the Kingdom of Logic. But since the Ban ended in 1582, grubby mundane reality has returned to Loskalm. Makan once again traps our souls in gross corruption. Even those who have been elevated to the highest castes fall to greed, lust, ambition, and other petty corruptions. 

Oranor and the Noyalings are not part of Loskalm, for what it is worth.

[Evilroddy]

HI Jeff:

Two questions occur to me. Pre-lifting of the Ban, how did the Hrestoli Idealists deal with those who lacked 'merit' and thus could not rise to even the first rung of the meritocracy? These are the incompetent, the indifferent, the sick, the insane or the predatory. Was magic used to cure or to re-educate those who did not fit in?

The second question concerns the state of the meritocracy post-lifting of the Ban. How far has Makan-materialism permeated into the Kingdom of Loskalm proper by 1621 ST? Does the kingdom allow foreigners within its frontiers or is it xenophobic in attempt to limit the permeation of Makan-materialism's corruption?

Noyalings were incorporated into the population of Easval in the mid-1400's according to the G2G and I presume that if this process happened in the north it might have happened in the south. But I guess I'm wrong. I don't have the Guide at hand right now, but I'll put in a page reference later.

Thanks for your guidance above. It is most appreciated.

Cheers.

Evilroddy.

The Noyaling reference is from the description of Kintaem on p. 208 of Vol. 1 of the G2G. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by Evilroddy
Update:

[JonL]

On 10/31/2016 at 8:00 AM, Evilroddy said:

Are there lazy, disinterested, disengaged, criminal, pereverted, greedy, power-crazed or dissenting groups who challenge the primacy and the legitimacy of the Hrestoli Idealistic way?

16 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

Two questions occur to me. Pre-lifting of the Ban, how did the Hrestoli Idealists deal with those who lacked 'merit' and thus could not rise to even the first rung of the meritocracy? These are the incompetent, the indifferent, the sick, the insane or the predatory. Was magic used to cure or to re-educate those who did not fit in?

Probably some, but not so many that the normal functioning of their society can't handle it. Lazy, disinterested, or disengaged? Well, you'll probably get shuffled around the worker sub-castes until your local noble finds something for you to do that you can at least tolerate and not screw up horribly, and they probably have some guidance-counsellor magic to help find the best match possible. Power crazed isn't necessarily a problem, since there is an open path to earning power. There's probably some petty crime here and there, but with something close to full employment and general prosperity (in part thanks to community blessings) there's not much reason for crime to flourish. A man with a gambling problem might steal or embezzle to cover his debts, but you don't have hundreds of hungry dispossessed folk turning to street crime or banditry.

[Evilroddy]

Jon L.

You make very good points. I can see the Hrestoli-idealists being able to manage the great majority of people, but I still can't get my head around how they manage a very small but intractable minority of people who will just not fit in. All populations have dissident or deviant groups who will not or cannot conform to societal norms. Those who commit crimes or defy authority for the thrill of it, the dangerous-lazy who prefer to commit easy crimes rather than toiling at less rewarding and hard work, the insane, the possessed and the subversive. There's just something off, something sinister about such a perfect society and I want to peer behind the curtain to see the monsters behind the serene and smiling faces. My Orlanthi soul bridles at such harmony and self/ego/id-extinction. Something's rotten in the state of Loskalm! And with the Ban preventing them from exiling the unassimilatable. Where did they go?

Cheers and thanks for your insights.

Evilroddy.

[JonL]

I expect that a lot of the big congregational rites in City of Virtue and Siglat's Dream involve large scale COMBINE(Harmony,Man) and DISMISS(Disorder) effects, leading to a supernaturally low incidence of true malcontents within their society. Conventional law & order can handle the occasional hard case who can't or won't manage even a grudging coexistance with society as a recluse, workplace jerk, brooding artist, or quietly depressed Willy Loman, just like anywhere else.

"Where did they go?" It has been suggested that Siglat's magical social engineering had unintended consequences just like his father's did: namely, that the sudden rise of The Kingdom of War may be some sort of counter-reaction to the Loksalmi purging their realm of its bad mojo, that Lord Death on a Horse is the avatar of all the spiritual toxins they spent a generation DISMISSing, 

[Jeff]

On 11/1/2016 at 2:54 AM, Evilroddy said:

HI Jeff:

Two questions occur to me. Pre-lifting of the Ban, how did the Hrestoli Idealists deal with those who lacked 'merit' and thus could not rise to even the first rung of the meritocracy? These are the incompetent, the indifferent, the sick, the insane or the predatory. Was magic used to cure or to re-educate those who did not fit in?

The second question concerns the state of the meritocracy post-lifting of the Ban. How far has Makan-materialism permeated into the Kingdom of Loskalm proper by 1621 ST? Does the kingdom allow foreigners within its frontiers or is it xenophobic in attempt to limit the permeation of Makan-materialism's corruption?

Noyalings were incorporated into the population of Esval in the mid-1400's according to the G2G and I presume that if this process happened in the north it might have happened in the south. But I guess I'm wrong. I don't have the Guide at hand right now, but I'll put in a page reference later.

Thanks for your guidance above. It is most appreciated.

Cheers.

Evilroddy.

The Noyaling reference is from the description of Kintaem on p. 208 of Vol. 1 of the G2G. 

Everyone had merit under King Siglat's reign. Even those who were lazy or indifferent had something that the lazy and indifferent could do. None were sick for there was no disease. The Ban expelled Makan and all outside pollution from Loskalm (of course it went somewhere - see, War, Kingdom of). Man lived in harmony with Logic. If someone was better suited for being a grower of cabbages rather than a tender of goats, Siglat knew and he'd fix the situation. People were assigned to the correct castes based on ability and character, and Siglat taught the tests so that the castes could recruit suitable members. Under King Amprel (1559-1573), Siglat's Commonwealth continued in perfect logic. Even the semi-barbarous folk like those of Kintaem knew their correct place, forming their own "fifth caste" outside of the four true castes. Powerful magical spells and ceremonies aided good government, farming, crafting, and all other human endeavors.

During the Ban, the people of Loskalm returned to Danmalastan within Time. I can't emphasize that enough. Even the Erasanchula obeyed logic, and were celebrated in art and story (but not with worship). 

But with the Opening, outside pollution returned and imperfection and flaws appeared. Things that worked smoothly and without complaint became complicated and difficult. The castes recruited people that were not always best suited for the caste, and some say birth, greed, and ambition played an increasing role. Foreigners have brought both wealth and pollution with them, often at the same time. The growing forces of disintegration have tainted Loskalm. The Erasanchula have turned on each other and brought their Gods War back. Even the weather changed for the worse. In short, Time and Compromise returned. Worse yet, where Makan had been banished now erupted in a boil of filth, violence, and hate. If the Ban had been the Fourth Action returned, the end of the Ban brought on the Fifth Action. 

[JonL]

15 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

Something's rotten in the state of Loskalm! And with the Ban preventing them from exiling the unassimilatable. Where did they go?

Also, more literally, Treason Island (GtGv1, p211):

Quote

Treason Island: Traitors, rebels, and other
transgressors against the kingdom of Loskalm
are exiled to this island. The island has few
trees and is mainly barren grassland.

 

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Even the semi-barbarous folk like those of Kintaem knew their correct place, forming their own "fifth caste" outside of the four true castes.

Could you elaborate on this, please? I'm reminded of situations IRL where out-caste sub-societies filled niches that were taboo for the in-group, such as property ownership restrictions and exemption from usury laws leading many European Jews into banking & commerce, or the relegation of leather production to Burakumin leading to their modern prominence the Japanese shoe industry.

[Jeff]

Well obviously the half-Noyalings of Kirtaem are too backwards and barbaric to really be "full people" but they perform tasks that are taboo or outside what dronars are supposed to do. Too impure and practicing taboo trades (herd musk ox and use them in agriculture, practice shamanism, etc.), they still have their place in Siglat's Commonwealth. They perform their trades, govern their own community, and even serve as spirit mediums (like Dukun shamanism in Islamic Indonesia or the Bomo in Islamic Malaysia or ). There's probably several of these "Fifth Caste People" in Loskalm. They are considered Malkioni (and consider themselves to be Malkioni as well), but they all belong to one caste and cannot move into the Dronar caste, let alone the Guardians, Men-of-All, Wizards, or Nobles.

[MJ Sadique]

The Magic Environement create by Siglat in Loskalm is create Harmony to help people finding their place in his society. In this Ideal world, even if people who don't have the abilities but still try, they will find help (not by Siglat himself but by all loskalmi harmony). To me this "naturaly happens like in :
-Gattaca, where the hero find people helping him, with or without his knowledge, to find is ideal place in this perfect world and achieve his own dream.
-Like in A Knight's Tale (2001) where the hero who don't belong to the knight caste receive the blessing of the Most Rock n' Roll Prince (Edward of Woodstock) and became a full plegde knight.

But two things still bother me :

1/ about people who just CAN'T adapt : Siglat's Dream is based on Hrestol's "Everyone can level up" following Worker (Dronal) --> knight (Harol) > Magician (Zabur) > Noble (Talar) >>> Malkion (KING). But what if someone have ZERO abilities in being a dronali and Haroli but have a great natural talent in Magic ? being promote to Zaburi caste directly should happen but It's oppose to Hrestol ways ? I can't solve this -_-;;

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

During the Ban, the people of Loskalm returned to Danmalastan within Time. I can't emphasize that enough. Even the Erasanchula obeyed logic, and were celebrated in art and story (but not with worship). 

Return to Danmalastan blessing bother me a tiny teeny bit because
-Loskalm's harmony in Logic is Hrestol's teaching : to evolve within castes to attain the highest level you can ( a true meritocracy ). Rune may be : Harmony and Movement
-Danmalastan's harmony in Logic is Malkion 4 castes old teaching : to stay in the Caste is he made for ( Rokari malkionism ). Rune may be : Harmony and Stasis

This opposition in Loskalm actual state and Danmalastan old ways seems strange to me unless every Loskalmi act like Malkion himself having all castes abilities but it mean you try to make every Loskalmi a new Malkion which do not seems really right for ALL loskalm... I can't solve this either -_-;;;

 

I always personnaly think that Sog (Sogala Mambrola) could be an excellent counter part of the Loskalm perfection/elitism (like Harmony and Disorder Runes). Before the ban opening, People who don't want Loskalm idealist could like Arkat not realise their "Dream" in Loskalm. Sog could be the best place for them since a lot of people/noble go there...

[Jeff]

New Hrestolism is not about "leveling up" - it is about creating a system whereby birth does not determine your caste. Logic dictates that all human societies are divided between Workers, Guardians, Magicians (which includes both Men-of-All and Wizards), and Rulers. Logic does not dictate that the son of a Worker is best suited for being a Worker; what if they possess the capacity to be an excellent Magician or even a Ruler? Logic dictates that keeping a potential excellent Magician or Ruler as a Worker is an irrational waste - so human institutions must be created to identify those Workers who would make a greater contribution as a member of another caste. And of course, the higher castes must understand the experiences of those they govern. Thus the system of identifying Workers as potential Guardians, recruiting potential Men-of-All from the Guardians (and selecting some Men-of-All to be Wizards), and appointing new Rulers from among the Men-of-All and Wizards. 

It is fully understood that 90% of the population is best suited to be Workers. The Guardians, Men-of-All, Wizards, and Nobles are make up (to paraphrase W.E.B. DuBois) the "Talented Tenth" of the population.

[MJ Sadique]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

It is fully understood that 90% of the population is best suited to be Workers. The Guardians, Men-of-All, Wizards, and Nobles are make up (to paraphrase W.E.B. DuBois) the "Talented Tenth" of the population.

The talented tenth ... ok,ok,ok I had forgottent this low percentage things. Let's add some water in my wine -eat a humble pie- : I understand better how returned to Danmalastan within Time could work. The New Hrestolism supress the caste limitations for the talented ones like when Malkion gave the 4 first (Dronal, Horal...) their roles (castes creation) at the first age of Danmalastan : He appointed someone to a caste after judging his "natural talent".

What if a talented Talari Brithini came in Loskalm ? Must he act like all New Hrestoli and get a "caste reset" ?  or can he directly be appointed in the Noble caste ?
The Latter should be the ideal answer befitting the utopian returned to Danmalastan within Time. If a Talari had to understand workers and warriors ways, the perfection of New Hrestolism will give him a befitting role as worker (like a chief-project / management) and Guardian (officer) without him having to to anything out of his area of expertise because Harmony in logic always make him be at the good best place doing a good the best job he can : A true Utopian harmony.
-The only example I remember is when Arkat, a brithini warrior, came in genertela but he just go back to doing farmer jobs.... which let me perplex in my choice.

What gain is/happen to the 90% mass Loskalm ?
In old' time a bookworm' Tadeni-born will have to stay in family job for the rest of eternity even if he wanted to go sailing to the see the universe like any waertagi could do. The returned to Danmalastan within Time + "caste reset" give them some liberty within the worker caste :
-The only son of a merchant could become a painter of talent instead of being forced to stay in his family. A fourth generation peasant cloud become a great sailor in merchant navy (as loskalm is a bit cut in two). Most tradition and habit to force people stay in their hometown could be overthrown by New Hrestolism : a great Utopia for the mass.
-New Hrestolism help people to find the best job in for Loskalm Utopia : Like Stallone in Demolition Man who get a "your're best at knitting so we upload the skills in your tiny archaïc brain" because your natural talent for destruction is not useful to us. You can find your place in the kingdom harmony but having no usefull talent for the harmony make you a "Zero talent" man. (remind the ideal city of Kazuma Kamachi ).

 

 

[Pentallion]

On 11/2/2016 at 0:25 AM, Jeff said:

Everyone had merit under King Siglat's reign. Even those who were lazy or indifferent had something that the lazy and indifferent could do. None were sick for there was no disease. The Ban expelled Makan and all outside pollution from Loskalm (of course it went somewhere - see, War, Kingdom of). Man lived in harmony with Logic. If someone was better suited for being a grower of cabbages rather than a tender of goats, Siglat knew and he'd fix the situation. People were assigned to the correct castes based on ability and character, and Siglat taught the tests so that the castes could recruit suitable members. Under King Amprel (1559-1573), Siglat's Commonwealth continued in perfect logic. Even the semi-barbarous folk like those of Kintaem knew their correct place, forming their own "fifth caste" outside of the four true castes. Powerful magical spells and ceremonies aided good government, farming, crafting, and all other human endeavors.

During the Ban, the people of Loskalm returned to Danmalastan within Time. I can't emphasize that enough. Even the Erasanchula obeyed logic, and were celebrated in art and story (but not with worship). 

But with the Opening, outside pollution returned and imperfection and flaws appeared. Things that worked smoothly and without complaint became complicated and difficult. The castes recruited people that were not always best suited for the caste, and some say birth, greed, and ambition played an increasing role. Foreigners have brought both wealth and pollution with them, often at the same time. The growing forces of disintegration have tainted Loskalm. The Erasanchula have turned on each other and brought their Gods War back. Even the weather changed for the worse. In short, Time and Compromise returned. Worse yet, where Makan had been banished now erupted in a boil of filth, violence, and hate. If the Ban had been the Fourth Action returned, the end of the Ban brought on the Fifth Action. 

Sounds like Siglat created a world of Perfect Harmony.  Obviously, the lifting of the Ban in Loskalm wasn't done by White Moonies or a demon summoning, as they claim in (Eastpoint or Riverjoin?  I forget).  It was done by a Trickster who brought Disorder back. 

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

What gain is/happen to the 90% mass Loskalm ?

They lived long fulfilled lives according to their caste. Until the lifting of the Ban, when suddenly the utopian system of Loskalm was confronted by a world that wasn't utopian, and in some areas, such as the Kingdom of War, a dark dystopia - Loskalm's own shadow returned.

Edited November 3, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Pentallion]

On 11/2/2016 at 1:26 PM, Jeff said:

New Hrestolism is not about "leveling up" - it is about creating a system whereby birth does not determine your caste. Logic dictates that all human societies are divided between Workers, Guardians, Magicians (which includes both Men-of-All and Wizards), and Rulers. Logic does not dictate that the son of a Worker is best suited for being a Worker; what if they possess the capacity to be an excellent Magician or even a Ruler? Logic dictates that keeping a potential excellent Magician or Ruler as a Worker is an irrational waste - so human institutions must be created to identify those Workers who would make a greater contribution as a member of another caste. And of course, the higher castes must understand the experiences of those they govern. Thus the system of identifying Workers as potential Guardians, recruiting potential Men-of-All from the Guardians (and selecting some Men-of-All to be Wizards), and appointing new Rulers from among the Men-of-All and Wizards. 

It is fully understood that 90% of the population is best suited to be Workers. The Guardians, Men-of-All, Wizards, and Nobles are make up (to paraphrase W.E.B. DuBois) the "Talented Tenth" of the population.

Now that the Ban is lifted, who will be the Bernie Sanders to stand up for the 90%?

[JonL]

59 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Now that the Ban is lifted, who will be the Bernie Sanders to stand up for the 90%?

That was kind of Hrestol already, Loksalm is an actual Egalitarian Meritocracy. Now Seshnela, they could stand to feel the Bern.

[Evilroddy]

Well, I'm lost and confused! I have to do some serious reading before I can follow the more esoteric strands in this thread. Erasanchula? Gotta look that one up! I should learn how to spell Siglat's name too! I guess I'm just too firmly rooted in Makan-materialism to fully comprehend the merit-based majesty of magically Maoist Loskalm. I can't help imagining RKO Films-style towers radiating harmony waves over all of Loskalm while an Orlanthi incarnation of Winston Smith looks on in pallid-faced horror. I'm actually considering rooting for the Kingdom of War right now! Yikes! I guess it's Treason Island for me! Maybe I can put the trees back in Treason!

Is Danmalastan near Uzbekistan? 

Cheers and good gaming.

A bewildered Evilroddy.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Evilroddy

[Jeff]

Loskalm is not Maoist - rather imagine if the "mediation of the brain and the hand by the heart" at the end of Metropolis succeeded and carried forward. Or if Plato's Republic actually functioned. The idea is not that there is caste conflict - the castes should harmoniously reinforce each other. Rather the key question is how does society ensure that the castes are comprised of people most appropriate for that caste. The Malkioni (like all Gloranthans - except really the Orlanthi) know that there was a Golden Age where men and gods (who the Malkioni call Erasanchula - the gods are recognized but not worshiped by most Malkioni and that name helps make the distinction) worked together harmoniously. The Malkioni call that harmonious Golden Age Danmalastan.

This is a philosophical issue hard-wired into Malkionism. Of course Loskalmi society is divided into the four castes - logic dictates that all human society is divided between those who work, those who protect, those who work magic, and those who mediate between the castes and talk to outsiders. Even the civilized barbarians of Jonatlela and Oranor replicate this unknowingly and in a haphazard manner. Only the savage half-men Hykimi run around like beasts.

Traditional Hrestolism meant that some members of a caste through spiritual devotion could become a Man-of-All and be above and outside of all caste limitations and restrictions. Intercaste mobility occurred but haphazardly - a farmer might become a warrior, a successful warrior might become a ruler, and the child of a rich farmer might gain a good education and become a wizard, and so on. New Hrestolism systemizes this for all of Loskalmi society. Think of it like a more expansive and comprehensive version of the Imperial Examinations in Tang China.

During the Ban, the powers of discord, corruption, separation, and lies (the Loskalmi have lots of issues with lies) were banished from Loskalm and thus the new Golden Age worked as logic dictates. But with the end of the Ban, these powers have returned. Thus Loskalmi society is now a normal human society, with conflict, greed, factions, and falsehoods. 

[Jeff]

The Rokari have a simple method for agricultural or urban workers who try to rebel against their talars - let the horali kill them. Or if the local horali are untrustworthy, hire mercenaries to do it. Simple, logical, and ruthless - a good Rokari solution.

[Jeff]

By the 1620s, there are relatively few people alive who were adults during the Syndic's Ban (those under 40 years old were born since it ended, and those between 40 and 60 only remember it as children). A small cadre of senior officials, including King Gundreken, Gaiseron, and Meriatan, recall the Golden Age vividly and strive to maintain it (or even restore it). However, even these old companions disagree how best to do this. Meriatan is probably dominant - think of him as a cross between Galahad and Wang Anshi.

Out in the provinces, there are cases of corruption, where existing Men-of-All and Nobles make sure their own children pass the examinations and are recruited. Villages Elders appoint their own favorites as Guardians or even accept payment to do so. In short, all the things that one would expect to happen is happening. 

[scott-martin]

That forceful generational nostalgia is hot stuff.

[JonL]

Even if their golden era is behind them, even an 80% effective Egalitarian Meritocracy is still a better deal than what most folks get.

[Pentallion]

The perfection of their golden era obviously wasn't the point of Snodal's Ban.  He was buying time.  But it wasn't time to defeat the Kingdom of War, because the Kingdom of War was a result of the Ban, not the inevitability he was trying to avoid.  When the Lunars sweep across Fronela, destroying all who stand in their path, we know the Loskalmi are not destroyed.  Defeated perhaps, but not destroyed because in the end, Argrath calls upon the dragon of the west wind who comes to destroy the Moon.

So Snodal's Ban strengthens Loskalm because of the perfection it gives them.  The perfection wanes after the Ban is lifted, but three generations of living within it is enough.  The Loskalmi are prepared now to face the coming storm.  All they need is an enemy to harden them.  The Kingdom of War was most likely a feature, not a bug, of the Syndic's Ban.

[Patrick]

Not from the same universe, but I really like this quote:

 

Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristocratic forms. No government in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, government tends more and more to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class – whether that class be hereditary royalty, oligarchs of financial empires, or entrenched bureaucracy.
Politics as Repeat Phenomenon : Bene Gesserit Training Manual

Your Dune  May Vary ;-)

[Evilroddy]

2 hours ago, Pentallion said:

The perfection of their golden era obviously wasn't the point of Snodal's Ban.  He was buying time.  But it wasn't time to defeat the Kingdom of War, because the Kingdom of War was a result of the Ban, not the inevitability he was trying to avoid.  When the Lunars sweep across Fronela, destroying all who stand in their path, we know the Loskalmi are not destroyed.  Defeated perhaps, but not destroyed because in the end, Argrath calls upon the dragon of the west wind who comes to destroy the Moon.

So Snodal's Ban strengthens Loskalm because of the perfection it gives them.  The perfection wanes after the Ban is lifted, but three generations of living within it is enough.  The Loskalmi are prepared now to face the coming storm.  All they need is an enemy to harden them.  The Kingdom of War was most likely a feature, not a bug, of the Syndic's Ban.

Brilliant analysis Pentallion! Machiavellian metaphysics and mysticism in the service of radical social engineering, but to what end.? Defence of Loskalm or something much bigger? A two-track scheme worthy of the most arcane Brithini zzaburi! I like it, hell, I love it. I'm stealing it! Thank you. Spring boarding off your amazing insight, do you think it possible that the infinitely patient Brithini could have been behind it, subtly influencing Snodal and Siglat from afar and operating below the Hrestoli's radar? Have they been orchestrating this all along to force a second confrontation with Nysalor/Gbaji after Arkat stumbled and failed to eliminate this catalyst of cataclysms? This is definitely cool speculation! I'm all jazzed up now!

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.