How Utopian is Loskalm Really?

[Pentallion]

3 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

Brilliant analysis Pentallion! Machiavellian metaphysics and mysticism in the service of radical social engineering, but to what end.? Defence of Loskalm or something much bigger? A two-track scheme worthy of the most arcane Brithini zzaburi! I like it, hell, I love it. I'm stealing it! Thank you. Spring boarding off your amazing insight, do you think it possible that the infinitely patient Brithini could have been behind it, subtly influencing Snodal and Siglat from afar and operating below the Hrestoli's radar? Have they been orchestrating this all along to force a second confrontation with Nysalor/Gbaji after Arkat stumbled and failed to eliminate this catalyst of cataclysms? This is definitely cool speculation! I'm all jazzed up now!

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

 

Brithini always seem so boring and detached.  Maybe they had a hand in it, but I hardly think the destruction of Loskalm was of any concern to them.  Feels more like Snodal was caught up in something bigger.  Zzabur perhaps?  I'd say Arachne Solara, but him being an atheist and all, needs a sorcerous explanation. 

[Evilroddy]

Pentallion:

No, not the destruction of Loskalm. I was speculating that the Brithini might not want the destruction of Loskalm but rather the weaponising of it. Using it, first as bulwark and then as a weapon against the Lunar Empire/Nysalor/Gbaji complex. Forge and sharpen it in the ban, temper, quench and harden it in the blood of the Kingdom of War and then use it in earnest against the corruption of illumination from the Lunar Way. A grand crusade up the Janube, across Carmania and Penlanda and into the heart of the Empire while dragons and heroes of the West and East rend the moon and bleed it white before toppling it completely. Immortal Brithini, like long-lived mistress race trolls, take the long view.

As to Snodal, did he see the Atlas of Zzabur while exiled in and beyond the Valind wastes and thus had foreknowledge of the threat from Sedenya and a resurgent Nysalor/Gbaji? Could such a glimpse have been orchestrated by the Brithini or Zzabur himself? (I've just realised that I'm not sure if Zzabur is necessarily male. I've just always assumed that 'he' was.) Could Snodal unknowingly have been given subtle guidance by the Brithini and mistook that for divine inspiration in the bringing of the Ban?

Is there a secret history which lies hidden below the one told in the two volumes of canonical and received wisdom in the G2G? Are Greg, Jeff and Sandy hoodwinking us as false prophets and agents of Brithini deception? Do we need a Gloranthan Procopius to come along and tear away the veil by writing a Secret History? Could that be the hidden Volume III of the G2G which lies beside the Atlas of Zzabur secreted with the Altinae, beyond Valind's Glacier? Enquiring minds want to know! 

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by Evilroddy

[Yelm's Light]

Hmmm...if this is really more a Platonic utopian society (which, from all indications, it is, with the addition of the wizard caste), it would tend to be far more pacifistic and isolationistic than that.  They wouldn't go looking for trouble, but would be ready to deal with it if it should insinuate itself into their national affairs.

[Evilroddy]

Yelm's Light:

The Platonic concepts of the just state and the just soul are very different from what modern terrestrial notions of 'just' entail. A Platonic state is an extremely totalitarian state which controls every aspect of its subjects' lives from cradle to grave. Plato argued the visual arts, music, prose, and indeed all forms of expression be controlled and only expressions which supported the goals and ideals of the state be allowed. Plato set aside special vehemence for rooting out dissent by controlling poetry which he viewed as a dangerous art. Poets were to be watched and controlled and if they would not or could not conform to the proper expression of the state's ideals, they should be killed. 

Philosophy was likewise tightly controlled and was only permitted to the most just souls in their later years, about 50 years of age or older. People who would not or could not support the just ideals of the state were treated very harshly. On a first offence there would be five years of prison combined with vigorous re-education for the transgressors. For a second offence, death. The airing of the erroneous expression was deemed so dangerous that no open trial would be allowed and no opportunity to mount a defence would be afforded to the mistaken. They would be quietly condemned and disappeared to prison or to an early grave.

In Plato's Republic strength of body was as important as strength of soul. Fitness of body was as important as fitness of mind. It was the duty of all to maintain peak fitness and to 'encourage' others to do likewise. Not just the Auxillaries (equivalents of the Loskalmi Guardians) and the Magistrates (Loskalmi Nobels) were to train in arms, so it was the responsibility of all to be prepared for war. The Platonic state was to be aggressive, not pacifistic. It was to aggressively conquer territories and resources for the good of the state. It had no use for unindoctrinated conquered peoples so their future fate was grim and short. Selective breeding and state rearing of children was to be the norm. Read the following passage from the fictional Socrates (Plato's mouth-piece) to see how far the state was to be willing to go to shape the young and deny/thwart human instinct:

Quote

“the best of either sex should be united with the best as often [as possible], and the inferior with the inferior as seldom as possible; and they should rear the offspring of the one sort of union, but not of the other, if the flock is to be maintained in first-rate condition. Now these goings-on must be a secret which only the rulers know, or there will be a further danger of our herd, as they may be termed, breaking out into rebellion.”

So the state was to practice covert eugenics in order not to trigger rebellion from the population. 

The Platonic State was to be neither pacifist nor isolationist. It was to be a well ordered and and organised engine of logistics and human capital devoted to promoting the power of the state and advancing its interests by 'moral' and military means. The tyrant was only bad because he placed his own debased desires before the needs of the state. The tyrant was bad, but defacto state-tyranny was standard operating procedure. That's why comparison of the Platonic state to fascism or National Socialism or Stalinism is flawed, as these served the needs and wants of only a part of the state. The Platonic state was to serve all, not just an elite, and force them by indoctrination to become 'willing' participants in a vast state project. The leaders and soldiers of the state were supposed to have no property as such would distract them from the full pursuit of their mandate in service of the state. Property was allowed only to the lower producer class of the state as control of the means of production was necessary to efficient and driven production. But the excessive accumulation of property or capital was forbidden. That is why a slightly capitalist flavour of Maoism is the best modern analogue to Plato's Republic. 

How then does this inform our understanding of Loskalmi Hrestoli Idealism?

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Evilroddy

[Yelm's Light]

This isn't really the forum for a long debate on the Republic, but I'm curious where Plato suggests expansionism in terms of the utopia.  He goes into it briefly when discussing the 'bad' or less just forms of government near the end of the book, but I can recall no references to the Republic doing so.

[Evilroddy]

Yelm's Light:

I'm not anywhere near my books right now. My recollection, which is now over 30 years old, is that it is both explicit (Book VIII?) and implicit throughout the "Republic" and augmented in the "Laws" and the Alcibiades and Laches dialogues. 

In the absence of my books, maybe this interesting article on the Platonic roots of the 'just war doctrine' will be of some assistance.

http://www.diametros.iphils.uj.edu.pl/index.php/diametros/article/download/384/383 

Sorry that I can't be of more help right now but those books are in storage 800 km from me at this time.

Cheers and good gaming,

Rod Robertson.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Evilroddy

[Yelm's Light]

Book VIII (VII through X, actually), are Plato's critiques of the extant forms of government as he had classified them.  As I said before, he does mention war explicitly there, but in the context of those forms of government waging it.  As for Syse's analysis, there are some pretty tenuous connections there.  He claims that because the Peloponnesian War happened during Plato's young life, war is always at the back of his mind.

I'm pretty solid on my knowledge of Greek literature, and I can tell you there is no explicit mention of the Republic (not tyranny, aristocracy, timocracy, oligarchy, or democracy, but the actual utopian state he defines) waging war.  Syse is reading what he wants into it.

[Evilroddy]

Yelm's Light:

Fair enough, I am operating from 'ancient' memory so I can't be sure of myself will thus defer to your more informed position on this ... for now.

When I can find the books and the time, I will redo my homework and if needed I will get back to you. Thanks for an interesting discussion and for the free educational!

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

[Jeff]

During the Ban, Loskalm had no war. Since the Ban, Loskalm has prepared for the apocalyptic battle between the forces of Good (Loskalm) and Evil (Kingdom of War). However, Loskalm is not particularly warlike towards its neighbors nor does it lay claim to their territory.

[MJ Sadique]

19 hours ago, Jeff said:

During the Ban, Loskalm had no war. Since the Ban, Loskalm has prepared for the apocalyptic battle between the forces of Good (Loskalm) and Evil (Kingdom of War). However, Loskalm is not particularly warlike towards its neighbors nor does it lay claim to their territory.

"During the Ban, Loskalm had no war" : During the utopian period of the ban didn't Loskalm fought Dilis Chaotic Monsters at door or did the Returned in time banned Chaos from approching Loskalm ? Or did the demon in Dilis swamp aren't really chaotic ?

"Loskalm is not particularly warlike towards its neighbors nor does it lay claim to their territory" : Sure, Loskalm is split in two and the tiny territory (spare for Dilis swamp) in the way is Sogue and Akem, not a peculiar strong place. I even remember some little country who were bored to be regulary annexed by it's neighbours (May be Junora ?) and wishes to be invade by /under the wing off Loskalm. And perhaps gain some benefits of from Loskalm Hamony/Utopian.

[Darius West]

On 11/2/2016 at 5:15 AM, JonL said:

Probably some, but not so many that the normal functioning of their society can't handle it. Lazy, disinterested, or disengaged? Well, you'll probably get shuffled around the worker sub-castes until your local noble finds something for you to do that you can at least tolerate and not screw up horribly, and they probably have some guidance-councilor magic to help find the best match possible. Power crazed isn't necessarily a problem, since there is an open path to earning power. There's probably some petty crime here and there, but with something close to full employment and general prosperity (in part thanks to community blessings) there's not much reason for crime to flourish. A man with a gambling problem might steal or embezzle to cover his debts, but you don't have hundreds of hungry dispossessed folk turning to street crime or banditry.

ROFL guidance councilor magic.  Why is that so funny?

I can see another problem.  A successful society still faces material limits, and even the most ambitious and meritorious person can only rise as far as there are vacancies.  There may be a thousand people who are qualified to be kings, but there will only ever be one king.  Similarly, when the prosperous peasants breed prolifically as they do, if the resource base of the kingdom isn't expanding then the excess population will be making do with less of everything.

If you are looking for what is wrong with Loskalm, and if you want to know where the corrosive element is, don't look to the caste system.  There are a group of people with their own agenda who operate almost completely unobserved, barely recognized by the hierarchy, completely outside the system of caste.  Worse still, the rules of Chivalry that says that this manipulative criminal class may not be interfered with in any way, and they will even find that it is easy to gain the assistance of warriors and knights if they play their cards right.  These vicious opportunists are the secret masters of Loskalm.  Their name?  Women.

[JonL]

Per the Guide, "Among the New Hrestoli, women enjoy the same status as men, and have risen to the highest offices in Loskalm." rather than being shut-out like they are in Seshnela or among the Brithini. The illustration for the of the "Man" of All is even a female. Apart from YGMV though (I liked The Book of Glorious Joy even if it's vision for Loksalm is deprecated), that might make for a slick idea to use on the Castle Coast.

[Darius West]

22 hours ago, JonL said:

Per the Guide, "Among the New Hrestoli, women enjoy the same status as men, and have risen to the highest offices in Loskalm." rather than being shut-out like they are in Seshnela or among the Brithini. The illustration for the of the "Man" of All is even a female. Apart from YGMV though (I liked The Book of Glorious Joy even if it's vision for Loksalm is deprecated), that might make for a slick idea to use on the Castle Coast.

I am sure I read that Loskalmi women rise to the status of their husband without having to meet the caste restrictions.  So they rise to the highest offices not by merit but by prostituting themselves into a good marriage and by the advantageous deaths of their husbands.  This was a corrosive social problem in Sparta and most warrior societies.  It isn't like a woman is restricted in her caste the way a man is.  She doesn't have to start a peasant and work her way up the way a man does, she just has to marry well. Essentially women just need to choose a wealthy host to parasitize. Loskalm is a paradise for ambitious scheming women who can turn on the waterworks while caring for the ailing husband they are poisoning. Male advancement is quite difficult by comparison.  It isn't as if noble girls of Loskalm become peasants as of turning 15 like the boys, and have to work their way up the ladder like boys, and can only marry within the class to which they have risen.  Basically, Loskalm has a Hrestolic Church that rewards men for being good and women for being evil.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Darius West

[MJ Sadique]

On 11/11/2016 at 8:20 AM, Darius West said:

If you are looking for what is wrong with Loskalm, and if you want to know where the corrosive element is, don't look to the caste system.
...
These vicious opportunists are the secret masters of Loskalm.  Their name?  Women.

My spider-sense of machoman is tingling me...

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am sure I read that Loskalmi women rise to the status of their husband without having to meet the caste restrictions.  So they rise to the highest offices not by merit but by prostituting themselves into a good marriage and by the advantageous deaths of their husbands.
...
Basically, Loskalm has a Hrestolic Church that rewards men for being good and women for being evil.

.... hé man, you've got a problem with women ? Got a bad divorce ? Cool down a bit !

I'll go along JonL openmindism : In Gloranthan Malkioni castes system, women can't change castes like men and aren't specialy different than men. I never thought brithini were peculiar machist because they are men-of-logic : Women aren't better for physical labour or protecting (Dronali or Haroli) but in most cases they have the same rights and duties.
-In Brithini families, Malkion create so much rules that prostitution and raped are not even know (it's a corrupted vadeli/chaos creation). Union are short-term pacts to creat new brithini. There is no need for forced mariage, it's not logic.
-In Rokari nobles families, they may be forced to marry a choosen husband but speaking about prostituting or rape mean chaos intrusion (to me) and fall of a civilisation (or rise for lunar). I see Rokari more lie tradition type people : If it's not a tradition, it's not a good thing.
-In Loskalm Hrestoli family, the elitism principle make forced mariage ineffective because the better the man, the better the place he'll have and the better the wive he'll meet (better in term of affinities and abilities). New Hrestolism reward man and women who seek/attain pure JOY. Moreover Loskalm is not a tudor-era-world !

In Loskalm Utopian return-in-time, a woman and man get along depending on harmony and affinities they have. Brithini may choose their partner to breed a better generation New Hrestolism of Loskalm, men-of-all and the church seek JOY not a social position. The Ideal church don't see maried women as evil, in "Book of Glorius Joy" only witch (independant sorceress) were stated as evil because they seek power alone and didn't choose to seek JOY.

In aparte : In Gloranthan general speaking, Women who choose men for social postion and protection are well knowed : Ernalda's followers. Their godess choose a new husband for protection and to flee from celestial court (some say she know something bad was there -ie she guess chaos incoming-). Ernalda was a tactian and she manipulate the young Orlanth better than any women could manipulate a man. Which doesn't mean she didn't have any feeling for this young wind god.

And remember anything a Theyalan god is doing is evil in Loskalm (bad false god worlath ! bad false godess Rnalda)

PS add : Darius aren't you a lunar trickster who want to corrupt Loskalm with Jrusteli/moonies teaching ??? If you are........ Great JOB XD

Edited November 12, 2016 by MJ Sadique
adding a joke

[Evilroddy]

This discussion is proceeding in unexpected directions. It was initially about the how Hrestoli Idealism could co-exist with flawed human beings as a component part of its societal expression. Perhaps we should return to that topic rather than endulging in fictional finger-pointing at non-existent groups within Loskalm. It seems to me that capable women would likely rise on their own merits in Loskalmi society rather than tying themselves to a male patron. Less capable women might follow a cooperative strategy by finding a husband to carry them along but a talented and rising husband would likely see through such a stratagem once the honeymoon was over and take corrective steps. Only incapable women with a very strong ability to control men would constitute a real threat and I imagine that such women would be a rare occurrence rather than the norm. So I don't see women as a secret force operating from behind the curtains of the bed chambers of Loskalm, promoting their own selfish interests at the expense of the Hrestoli whole. Yes, aberrations will occur but they would not be mainstream currents in society. Is marriage permanent in Loskalmi culture or is divorce permitted?

My problem is what to do with the significant numbers of people who for whatever reason don't buy into the Loskalmi state project of Idealism. They must be a significant number and it seems that a Utopia has little engineering tolerance for managing determined defiance or opposition, especially if that opposition is willing to use tactics and strategies which the state is unwilling or unable to use itself. If one's philosophy clashes with the received philosophy, how can that Loskalmi-wide orthodoxy be maintained without resort to exclusion, coercision or for a lack of a better term, 're-education'?

Cheers.

Rod Robertson.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Evilroddy

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

-In Loskalm Hrestoli family, the elitism principle make forced marriage ineffective because the better the man, the better the place he'll have and the better the wife he'll meet (better in term of affinities and abilities). New Hrestolism reward man and women who seek/attain pure JOY. Moreover Loskalm is not a tudor-era-world !

I am not accusing the Hrestoli of forcing women to marry.  On the other hand, why assume that a woman is a better person based upon the caste of her birth?  Shouldn't we judge the woman on the basis of her efforts and the content of her character in adversity as we would with a man? Typically women are mainly judged for their appearance. The women can marry outside and above their caste, and that means they can and will marry for advantage, not love, quietly and slowly poisoning or manipulating their husbands, accumulating property and position.  Loskalm is the most Arthurian part of Glorantha, and in fact is in many ways better than Arthurian Britain.  Arthurian Britain however had its problems.  Morgana La Fay, Nimue, and Guinevere, all undermined and sabotaged that system for their own selfish ends.  These meritocratic systems understand what to do with men in Loskalm and Arthurian Britain but have no idea how to handle the worst elements of female behavior, and in fact have left the door open for the women to behave very badly indeed, and that means a small proportion of the women will inevitably behave as badly as they can get away with, and the others will be "encouraged by their example".  I have definitely read that in Loskalm the women are not restricted in caste in terms of their marriage and assume the caste of their husband.  Perhaps I mis-remember that point?  Regardless of what the ideal is, humans inevitably fall well short of it.

13 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

In aparte : In Gloranthan general speaking, Women who choose men for social position and protection are well known : Ernalda's followers. Their goddess chose a new husband for protection and to flee from celestial court (some say she know something bad was there -ie she guess chaos incoming-). Ernalda was a tactican and she manipulate the young Orlanth better than any women could manipulate a man. Which doesn't mean she didn't have any feeling for this young wind god.

And remember anything a Theyalan god is doing is evil in Loskalm (bad false god worlath ! bad false goddess Ernalda)

PS add : Darius aren't you a lunar trickster who want to corrupt Loskalm with Jrusteli/moonies teaching ??? If you are........ Great JOB XD

 I think that Orlanth and Ernalda have an open relationship, and they have both been untrue and made amends in typical Orlanthi fashion.  Is Ernalda a conniving sycophant? Yeah, she is a bit, but Orlanth is often a violent blustering idiot.  They also have redeeming features, and it is the redeeming features that make the world work.

As to my motives in this, I am simply pointing out the most obvious weakness in the Loskalmi system.  If I was a criminal, that is how I would exploit that system, and that is how criminals think.  If I was creating a bad guy character in Loskalm and I wanted to succeed, I would choose an ambitious, greedy, attractive and sociopathic woman.   I am aware that my ideas may be a bit controversial and may appear polemic, but I am trying to be objective and offer a different perspective that doesn't engage group think and thus promotes thought and discussion in an interesting direction. As for being a Lunar trickster, no, merely a cynic. 

Cherchez la femme.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Darius West

[Evilroddy]

Darius West:

Fair enough. I can see some women taking the path that you outline but I also see some mechanisms which would tend to limit such behaviours' chances for success. If a criminal uses diplomacy, seduction, subterfuge and even murder to propel themselves to power, there is going to be a trail of evidence to indicate that they are doing this. If they are clever enough, disciplined enough and shrewd enough to cover such a trail up then they are pretty capable folk. If they are clever, capable, disciplined and shrewd enough to succeed criminally then they are also likely to succeed legally by methods deemed acceptable by Loskalmi society. So why risk a criminal career to success when a legal one is available, unless you are an anti-social thrill seeker who seeks the high of breaking the rules for its own sake?

The second mechanism is that talented, clever, disciplined and shrewd men might be initially attracted to an ambitious woman but would soon realise her ambition and drive to be destructive to their own self interests and to the wider Loskalmi ethos. Thus they would separate/divorce themselves from such women quickly in order to limit the damage. In a meritocracy the men with power will be capable and perceptive, not gullible emotionally stunted marks who inherited their wealth and are easy prey for a pretty face or a fascinating but toxic mind. And unlike in Aurthurian legend the most powerful are also the least propertied if Loskalm truely follows a Platonic model. The guardians, mages and nobles are managers and caretakers but do they themselves own the things they administer in trust? Only the producers need access to the means of production and thus to capital/property in order to produce. The higher castes don't need property. What materials they need are given to them. Their wealth is in authority/power and not in material possessions. When a woman assumes the caste of her husband, does she also assume his authority/power? No, not unless she is capable of exercising that power properly. When you marry a judge or magistrate your social standing may increase but you yourself do not become a judge or magistrate, even upon the death of your spouse unless you have the credentials to fill the role (and then there is only a chance of such an appointment).

So, yes, your femme fatale could be an excellent villain but I think she would be a rare exception rather than a part of a significant societal trend. The Morgans and the Guiniveres are in charge of their own fates in Loskalm and not being shackled and suppressed by a patriarchy which needs to be circumvented and out-manoeuvred in order for women to have success. Nimue was a demon/faerie and so is beyond the scope of this discussion.

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by Evilroddy

[MJ Sadique]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

1/ Loskalm is the most Arthurian part of Glorantha, and in fact is in many ways better than Arthurian Britain....

2/ Morgana La Fay, Nimue, and Guinevere, all undermined and sabotaged that system for their own selfish ends.... I have definitely read that in Loskalm the women are not restricted in caste in terms of their marriage and assume the caste of their husband.  Perhaps I mis-remember that point?  Regardless of what the ideal is, humans inevitably fall well short of it.
3/ As for being a Lunar trickster, no, merely a cynic. 

1/ As far as I know, Greg always said RuneQuest/Loskalm is nowhere near Pendragon/Arthurian Britain. As french, I always like the magical-knights of Loskalm : "men-of-all" don't mean anything in french (untranslatable) so I always present them as Sorcerer-RuneLord or sometimes lvl 15 peasant-mage-warrior. I think Loskalm may be more like the Ideal Magical Island of Avalon than the Ideal Arthurian Kingdom.

2/ In New Hrestolism, Women have the same status as men (G.T.G). I think women can assume the caste of their husband and may replace them if they want (like St Elleish). But a women can choose to follow their own path and create their own destiny by following Loskalm ideal and even becoming a Lord, a "Princess of Loskalm"; OR like roddy said choose to not accept Loskalm ideal and live as they wanted (be titled as witches), seizing powers and magic for themselves. Such women may be treated as non-malkioni or strangers and won't need to follow the restrictions and won't benefits the usual castes protections.

9 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

1/ Is marriage permanent in Loskalmi culture or is divorce permitted ?

2/ My problem is what to do with the significant numbers of people who for whatever reason don't buy into the Loskalmi state project of Idealism. ... If one's philosophy clashes with the received philosophy, how can that Loskalmi-wide orthodoxy be maintained without resort to exclusion, coercision or for a lack of a better term, 're-education'?

1/ As a culture-of-logic, the marriage follow some laws/rules depending of the castes. Breaking the rules always come with risks and interfere with spells of protections and blessings. Divorce may be permitted if one doesn't follow the established rules or if marriage interfere with the main New Hrestolism objective : attaining the True Glorious Joy.

2/ For people who don't buy it or can't accept this philosophy (a bit like Arkat in his times) :
-Try to find the less worst place for you (a re-education like in Demolition man -love this film-).
-Try to convince you to change your mind. (a tiny bit of coercision)
-They (copy-paste) be treated as non-malkioni or strangers and won't need to follow the restrictions and won't benefits the usual castes protections. (exclusion)
-Let you go away from the ideal kingdom like in the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" : They give you everything to find your place in the world but will still hope for your return.

Edited November 13, 2016 by MJ Sadique
some awful punctuation

[Darius West]

6 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

Fair enough. I can see some women taking the path that you outline but I also see some mechanisms which would tend to limit such behaviours' chances for success (1). If a criminal uses diplomacy, seduction, subterfuge and even murder to propel themselves to power, there is going to be a trail of evidence to indicate that they are doing this (2). If they are clever enough, disciplined enough and shrewd enough to cover such a trail up then they are pretty capable folk. If they are clever, capable, disciplined and shrewd enough to succeed criminally then they are also likely to succeed legally by methods deemed acceptable by Loskalmi society (3). So why risk a criminal career to success when a legal one is available, unless you are an anti-social thrill seeker who seeks the high of breaking the rules for its own sake?

The second mechanism is that talented, clever, disciplined and shrewd men might be initially attracted to an ambitious woman but would soon realize her ambition and drive to be destructive to their own self interests and to the wider Loskalmi ethos (4). Thus they would separate/divorce themselves from such women quickly in order to limit the damage. In a meritocracy the men with power will be capable and perceptive, not gullible emotionally stunted marks who inherited their wealth and are easy prey for a pretty face or a fascinating but toxic mind (5). And unlike in Arthurian legend the most powerful are also the least propertied if Loskalm truly follows a Platonic model (6). The guardians, mages and nobles are managers and caretakers but do they themselves own the things they administer in trust? (7) Only the producers need access to the means of production and thus to capital/property in order to produce. The higher castes don't need property. What materials they need are given to them. Their wealth is in authority/power and not in material possessions. When a woman assumes the caste of her husband, does she also assume his authority/power? (8) No, not unless she is capable of exercising that power properly. When you marry a judge or magistrate your social standing may increase but you yourself do not become a judge or magistrate, even upon the death of your spouse unless you have the credentials to fill the role (and then there is only a chance of such an appointment).

So, yes, your femme fatale could be an excellent villain but I think she would be a rare exception rather than a part of a significant societal trend (9). The Morgans and the Guiniveres are in charge of their own fates in Loskalm and not being shackled and suppressed by a patriarchy (10) which needs to be circumvented and out-maneuvered in order for women to have success. Nimue was a demon/faerie and so is beyond the scope of this discussion.

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

(1) Inevitably some criminals get caught.  It's an occupational hazard.  (2) The main trick of being a successful criminal is NOT leaving evidence. (3) But breaking the rules inevitably gets you more faster.  If you chew your way through enough husbands, accruing property along the way you can become a major landholder and even become a candidate for Queen. (4) The sexes have a history of being blind to each other's faults.  Plenty of people have found themselves in bad marriages until it was too late.  Sorcery seems to have a certain lack of spells that are good for detecting intrigue and deception. (5) Clearly you have no concept of feeding a man a delicious high cholesterol diet then having him die "in bed" of a sex related coronary with a beautiful wife.  Is it murder or a surfeit of affection? Many men would actively seek such a partner, I fear, even some who should know better. (6) By which I assume you mean the Platonic model of the "Philosopher King" ? (7) So who in fact owns these things?  If there is a king and nobles, surely they draw an income from the things they administer.  Even within the Church and Buddhism you find things held "in trust" by "folk without property" actually being a legal fiction at best, and these "religious princes" being extraordinarily corrupt, including priests with children who inherit their religious titles.  The Loskalmi however require their children to know the duties of each caste before they rise to the next one, but a good education early in life can give a noble child an immense head start.  Perhaps such rule bending dynasties can be regarded as another type of villain to discuss? (8) No, the wife is not the magistrate, but she will surely nag her husband to properly provide for her and their children, and that is how the criminal ball gets rolling (down hill), because nagging is the most effective method for getting your own way.  A woman who is closely and intimately aware of her husband's business often gleans information that she can use to criminal "family advantage".  She also has privy information that she can use to potentially parley into position for herself when she bumps the old coot off. Read some True Crime Lit; it is quite hair curling what women get up to; better than fiction, and much worse. (9) A single bad girl can be a terribly disruptive force, now imagine there are a few of them working together for mutual advancement, covering for each other, either through misguided loyalty, or perhaps some sort of pact, or even a longstanding lesbian relationship or two?  Lenin always maintained he only needed 8 loyal men to change the world.  Hitler used a similar notion of a core group of 8 people.  What may start as harmless girlish pranks and petty intrigues may develop an altogether more horrible and criminal complexion with the right application of blackmail and coercion.  You will never catch these sweet little serpents, and heaven help you if you do, because their plot to destroy you socially, legally and physically will already be coming to fruition well in advance of the discovery. It is often quite surprising how prescient female criminals have been (10) You make the mistake of thinking that the absence of a patriarchy would make a difference to the motivation of the femme fatale, or that women only behave in an anti-social fashion as a reaction to being dis-empowered by social institutions.  You may be versed in feminist discourse, but you are no criminologist, and this assumption is actually pretty sexist on analysis, as it pre-supposes that women don't commit crimes without a reaction to an underlying social prejudice guiding their actions.  I had a good friend, now sadly deceased, a dear little old lady who was an ex-detective and criminologist who took me under her wing and disabused me of such notions in fascinating and blood curdling detail some years ago.  A social system may be benign, but ultimately, for some people, it is never benign enough for their liking unless they are in control.  Gender politics has nothing to do with it; neither the will to power nor the instinct to do evil things for personal gain is limited to one gender or another.  Worse still, all too frequently a man will "nobly" take the fall for the woman who emotionally manipulated him into committing crimes, in order to protect her.  Very chivalric, but ultimately an empty and self destructive gesture of affection.  Such suckers are abandoned for "greener pastures" very quickly, as just another stepping stone on the path.   Just because a society is very just and fair, doesn't mean that everyone in it will be benign.  A disturbing truth is that often the people who are best at catching sociopaths are other sociopaths.  Certainly the best people at catching feminine wickedness are other women.

[g33k]

If you presume that a given man has risen to a high level by virtue of his merit, I would suggest that such a meritorious man would not (often) fall prey to the machinations of a less-meritorious woman:  his care in selecting a wife should preclude most schemers from marrying above their own level of merit.

Indeed, a woman who is looking to "wed above her station" might well find such non-virtuous weddings to be among the most-risky crimes to commit (particularly serial crimes), as they would be subjected to increasingly-intense scrutiny from men of extreme -- and presumably increasing -- merit/ability.  I presume that the very first time they overreach their ability (to deceive their fiance') they would find themselves facing criminal charges... and if they killed one or more men of merit superior to their own, I'd presume they'd face VERY severe penalties.

 

 

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, g33k said:

If you presume that a given man has risen to a high level by virtue of his merit, I would suggest that such a meritorious man would not (often) fall prey to the machinations of a less-meritorious woman:  his care in selecting a wife should preclude most schemers from marrying above their own level of merit.

Indeed, a woman who is looking to "wed above her station" might well find such non-virtuous weddings to be among the most-risky crimes to commit (particularly serial crimes), as they would be subjected to increasingly-intense scrutiny from men of extreme -- and presumably increasing -- merit/ability.  I presume that the very first time they overreach their ability (to deceive their fiance') they would find themselves facing criminal charges... and if they killed one or more men of merit superior to their own, I'd presume they'd face VERY severe penalties.

The virtues of intelligence or wisdom are seldom properly applied to matters of the heart.  Provided the woman kills by a different method each time e.g. once by a surfeit of eels, once by a surfeit of sex, twice in battle, once of old age, once of disease, once by snake bite etc. you can get through a lot of husbands without arousing too much suspicion, especially if you noisily lament your misfortune, tearfully and often.  In fact in a time of war, the whole process gets easier, so you might want to be passionately pro-military and let the Kingdom of War do your work for you.

[MJ Sadique]

13 hours ago, g33k said:

and if they killed one or more men of merit superior to their own, I'd presume they'd face VERY severe penalties.

It's more a presumption, it's a fact ! for all malkioni, G.T.G confirm that "Failure to obey caste laws interfere with the spells blessing and defending the community". If you don't follow your caste rules, if you cheated or if you kill ... you get yourself in some problems with the community magic even with the greatest hidden crime.

Basically -RuneQuestly- speaking : When you kill and cheat, you slowly taint yourself with death (rune) and discord (rune); Humakti and Lhankori can sense murderers and Liars ... so can some inquisitors/detectives in Loskalm with their spells (their are more discreet in loskalm). Spells to detect lies and abnomal amount of discord and death runes are basic "rune detection" spells (or will be soon...).

Suspicions can arise and a lot of method/spells to hunt down vadeli can still be use to detect such peoples. The more they are, the easier they will be detectable. They could be undetected only if such sociopaths follow all the rules of their castes. To prove their culpability is another thing... spells are clues not facts but as sorcery is a "science"... a sorcery spell can be use as a proof (The Experts - Glorantha XD). Leaving no evidence is a myth, detectives missing clues/knowledge create the perfect crime !

High-rankers (10% best people) : Such people cannot cheat someone who found the Glorius Joy because Mystical people like saints, arhats and bodhistava can sense if you've awaken to the True Joy, if you're faking kindness, hiding your feeling or even rejecting the True Joy. Sociopaths can disguise themselves but not their soul and their heart (if you can't fell anything, you cannot create love or the Glorious Joy to ).

Don't also forget that high-rank Loskalmi gain benefit from all loskami (Magic energy, knowledge and Joy are channeled from churchs through palaces to boost up the princes and King -HW- ). In this way, the King of Loskalm benefit from all kingdom awareness and informations to the point being seen as a half-god to strangers.

Three Last thing : (1) King, Queen, princes and others high levels candidate have all to pass the ultimate Loskalm test : Breakfast invitation with High-Watcher Gaiseron the Mystical-Saint-Pope-Arhat & Zzabur-Dr_Strange-level-Wizard & Loskalm-"éminence grise"-King-Elector !!!.
(2) And I don't speak about facing the Blue Fur Magical Guardian of Loskalm educated by Snodal; being a women won't help you facing an Immortal Uroxi. He can smell corrupted ones...
(3) Some seems to mistake what a Ideal Loskalm in Great Harmony is ! Ideal is not perfect, meaning everything can evolve, progress and change (perfection is like brithini a standstill immovable neverchanging kingdom). Plus, harmony don't mean everything is fine but If a problem arise, a solution and adaptation is possible and will be create. Even Sociopath can found their place and their meaning (in Inquisition for example XD).
 

 

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Basically -RuneQuestly- speaking : When you kill and cheat, you slowly taint yourself with death (rune) and discord (rune); Humakti and Lhankori can sense murderers and Liars ... so can some inquisitors/detectives in Loskalm with their spells (their are more discreet in loskalm). Spells to detect lies and abnomal amount of discord and death runes are basic "rune detection" spells (or will be soon...).

Suspicions can arise and a lot of method/spells to hunt down vadeli can still be use to detect such peoples. The more they are, the easier they will be detectable. They could be undetected only if such sociopaths follow all the rules of their castes. To prove their culpability is another thing... spells are clues not facts but as sorcery is a "science"... a sorcery spell can be use as a proof (The Experts - Glorantha XD). Leaving no evidence is a myth, detectives missing clues/knowledge create the perfect crime !

I don't disagree with anything you wrote except this bit above.  Firstly there aren't many Humakti in Loskalm, except working for the Kingdom of War, and Lhankori aren't plentiful at all.  I also don't recall there being plentiful detection of enemy spells in the Sorcery Grimoires, especially not in the Hrestoli ones.  Sometimes a crime, such as the theft of something the victim has forgotten even existed, goes undetected, unreported and utterly unremarked upon, and that is a perfect crime.

[MJ Sadique]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

I don't disagree with anything you wrote except this bit above.  Firstly there aren't many Humakti in Loskalm, except working for the Kingdom of War, and Lhankori aren't plentiful at all.  I also don't recall there being plentiful detection of enemy spells in the Sorcery Grimoires, especially not in the Hrestoli ones.  Sometimes a crime, such as the theft of something the victim has forgotten even existed, goes undetected, unreported and utterly unremarked upon, and that is a perfect crime.

As usual, My bad-english lack meaning and sense ...I'm sorry for this.

What I wish to said is Loskalmi/Western have people who act like Humakti & Lankhori with similar magic. In RQ3/HW sorcery, Your spells can vary (as YGMV)
-Mental Domination spell may be used to force people tell the Truth and Analyse magic could be use to detect a rune (like MP evaluation or Arkat Divine Spell Detection).
-Detect (a substance) is a common rq sorcery spell, but truth and death are a substance (rune) in Glorantha; Runes & sorcery interaction wasn't developed in the 80'.
-If Inquisitors/Talari need some spells, unlike others cultures, they can build ones or command their construction (Like the magical Iron Gate of Meriatan).

Some spells exist even if Greg didn't clearly state them but the New Design-RuneQuest will give us a better understanding of Glorantha Sorcery... and western magic culture.

The integration of sociopaths in a gloranthan society is common : some abnormal Aldryami who can't be "happy" because of their past lives are usually regroup in Babeester Gor cult and given a "raison d'être", a target for their wrath. Even Mostali can use defect Nilmerg and made the Gremlin. Uz have their own bloody berserker. To me, Loskalmi usually act more like elders races than regulars humans : When it's war, they always take a very long time thinking, preparing their actions and they choose to move after having a 200% chance of winning. They go all out with the best of their peoples, with greatest magic and seems unstoppable.

In the Ideal Loskalm in Danmalastan time, sociopaths and abnormal' ones can be given a place. Like Darius Said :  who are the best to discover others sociopaths/eurmali trying to mess up the kingdom ? Who can counter others country cabal and conspiracy ? who is better than a Loskalmi "femme fatale" to stop a siren/uleria prietess from seducing a prince or the king ?. The perfect harmony of Loskalm can give anyone, the best place to use their abilities. And as Redemption is part of Malkion/Hrestol teaching, Loskalmi would always give them a second chance (with a watcher of the Gaiseron on their back).

The Ideal Loskalm is like a better Danmalastan. If someone goes too far, like Vadel, they will be sentenced to death or be banned to preserve Loskalm Peace. Ideal not Perfect nor stupid !

What still interest me is what will happen to all sociopaths in place of power and influence after the end of the Utopia Era of Loskalm ? When the Grandiose Magic of Harmony, which act like a straitjacket to these people simply vanish at the end of the ban.... Will they side with the numerous-young or with the few-elite ? Will their greed protect Loskalm from the outside or try to sell it to the best ones ? As a French, I think a "femme fatale" or a "éminence grise" will try to use the war to seize the more power they can but they will still protect simple-minded-idealist Loskalm ! (In the Kingdom of blinds, One-eyes are kings)

Pride is a terrible sin which can make you act like the best man even if you're rotten ! (made me think about "The Legend of the Sun Knight" novel)

[Patrick]

How wonderfully optimistic :-)

 

i have a feeling that enumerating all these ways and means of the Loskalmi Idealists to root out crime and heresy actually gives  interesting hints on (potential) successful deviants.

Because, hey, this is magic Glorantha!

If the Hrestoli have strong detection magic, another magic can surely have it fail - e.g. being illuminated, using an Illusion grimoire, etc.

 

In not-so-far-away Jonatela, they call Eurmal "friend of man". Heck, he's surely a good friend to fool those straight-thinking Malkioni rulers ;-)

Does he have an underground cult in Loskalm? I don't know.

 

Along the Janube are lovely Lunar-cultured city states.

Does the Unspoken Word maintain a network in Loskalm? I don't know.

 

Among the ancestors of some provincial inhabitants are many Noyalings, some of whom worshipped the Tarjinian Bull.

Did they survive the curses of Talor, and wait for their time to come? I don't know.

 

In the Kingdom of War, murderous and treacherous cults abound. Man means prey, castle means loot.

Did they already start the run for first-behind-the-walls in Loskalm? I don't know.

 

Perfect Loskalm has destroyed, banned or bound all local spirits. All they could find, for sure.

What kind of spirits could escape the spells of the Church, lurking in unexpected places? I don't know.

 

 

The closer the light, the longer the shadow...