Frequency of Experience Rolls

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I'd better go re-read that bit of the RAW, I guess:  I learned it (and always played it) as "when you succeed, put a tick by the skill" with no GM-check step...  

 

BRP Page 182, Second paragraph under Skill Improvement :

Whenever your character successfully uses a skill and the gamemaster agrees that the success is worth an experience roll, you should place a checkmark in
the small box next to that skill on your character sheet.

 

See I don't just make this stuff up! 

Something along those lines has always been in each version of RQ/BRP/Stormbringer/Erlic/CoC/Pendragon/ElfQuest, etc. It's something that we mostly don't think about, since in the normal course of an adventure anything worth rolling for is usually worth an experience check-especially for starting characters. So most GMs get into the habit of always allowing a check and, over time, the whole GM agreement thing is forgotten. Eventually players think that any successful skill roll warrants a check. But GM approval, is in the rules, and can certainly curb any blatant skill check hunting. 

[Nikoli]

Hi All,

I was having queries around experience checks, too, and was wondering how often experienced BRP players/GMs use them. (I'm a long-time CoC player, but recently joined the Magic World guild for wfrp roleplaying!) The experience/tick hunting is not something I've ever encountered, though.

I recall in old games of CoC that only a special success would get the tick. That way, ticks are always significant, and that way a reward at the end of the session fits, too. I think this phased out of later editions. I was a player in those early days, so I'm not sure now whether this was an old rule. (I've not GM'd or played CoC, though, for many years. I played wfrp for a lonnnnng time, and decided I needed a new, but percentile, system. Searching around led me to Magic World.)

In terms of frequency of rolls, RQ3 mentions in a table that only 3 ticks are given. (It doesn't say it in the text, but in the hardcover GW version there's a table which limits the ticks.) Extrapolating, whether you use the special tick rule above, you would only allow 3 experience rolls per session. (Perhaps 5 at the end of a whole adventure.) The 3 experience rolls would limit tick hunting, since players will focus on the ticks they want, as would the special tick rule constrain what gets ticked. To avoid players not getting a tick if they never get a special success, the 3 experience rolls seems sufficient if you give ticks for dramatic, yet non-special, use of skills. Maybe changing the numbers so that up to 4 profession skills can be rolled (more even than 3, fitting with the 8 profession skills), and 2 non-profession skills. That way you allow players to grow within their profession, as befits, with some growth outside of it, too. 

Another and perhaps better option I'm playing around with is to allow experience checks on non-special'd skills, if dramatic, but to limit the number of experience rolls per adventure (or session?) to half their INT characteristic. (Similar to the skill modifiers.) A player with 14 INT could attempt a maximum of 7 experience rolls. If over the course of an adventure, these could be used after a session on successful skills, but the total experience tally of 7 is used up. So if the player fails two experience checks after a session, he has 5 left for the remaining adventure. 

If this 7 limit (based on an INT of 14) is chosen, one might allow rolls per session, but also allow the tally to be applied several times to a single skill. So, the player could effectively try to increase a skill two or three times, spending his experience tally on retries, but the skill only increases the once. It's a re-roll. Perhaps limit this to 3: three strikes and you're out of luck. That way you avoid players burning all their rolls on an unlucky streak. E.g., if a player only gathered three ticks in a session, he could get up to 3 tries to increase two of them (6 towards his INT 14 tally of 7), and 1 roll to increase the remainder. This would help balance the players who had a lucky session (ticked lots of skills) versus those who didn't (but they get the option to reroll), as the experience tally is a spendable resource. As a result, the tick-hunting might be constrained. The tally matters if players want to improve the odds of boosting their higher profession skills, rather than just using it to boost low surplus weapon skills, etc., via weapon swapping. A spendable resource makes a player think about the future more.

Any thoughts? I kind of like the idea of a spendable resource for rolls per session. Basing it off of INT seems nice, but I'm wary of players whose characters have modest INT suffering in the long-run. But maybe it's realistic, since all the other stats matter significantly. A smart warrior is now quite dangerous in the long-run, too, due to rerolls, which seems fitting. 

[g33k]

Our old HR from 1980 RQ is that you got to make an experience-check any time you had enough "downtime" to process and practice the learning, to lock it in.   You got a check in combat with your longsword?  OK... once you've had 20 hours' practice, going through repetitions and variations of what-you-learned, and working-in the muscle-memory... you get your check.  It needs to be in big chunks of time, at least an hour per.  So, 3 weeks of practice in camp every night, or 2+1/2 full days back in a city.

Note that some skills' skill-checks can be done in the field, while some cannot:  picking locks needs a suite of locks (ideally in varying conditions, from as well-oiles as the tongue of an etyries trader, to more rusted-and-immobile than the most ancient Mostali) to set/pick; and reading an ancient script needs a set of writings to study, etc.  To practice stealth, all you need is some cover, and something/someone to try sneaking up on...

[Baconjurer]

My current house rule is to eliminate checks altogether, and only allow skillups via training or self-study/research. I also added difficulty modifiers to skills, and vary the amount of time (and thus money) needed in training mode by difficulty of skill, skill of teacher, and intelligence/physical aptitude of the player. Rarity of finding teachers/research materials for higher levels in skills provides a further balance. Seems to be working so far.

[olskool]

I use the "Experience Point" system in my game.  Whenever you use a skill under stress or receive SUCCESSFUL TRAINING, you get ONE Experience Point.   Fumbles and Crits/Specials give you an additional EXP Point.  You must acquire 1/10th your current Skill Level (rounding 0.5< up) in EXP points to gain an Experience Roll.  So you would need 6 Experience points to gain a Skill Increase Roll on a skill of 58% (and 5 on a Skill of 52%).  I do the rolls identically to RAW but I do add 1 to the 1D6 increase for every 10 FULL points of INT, WILL (I added this), and CHA the character has.  The 1D6 roll STILL CANNOT EXCEED 6 with the characteristic modifications added to the roll.  The Experience points cashed in on a roll are lost regardless of the roll's success (Generous GMs could allow the player to keep their EXP on a failed Skill gain roll... YGMV).   

Learning/Improving Skills:

I remove Skill Level limits and allow ANY SKILL LEVEL to teach provided they have The Instruction Skill (I use RQ6 skill adds and this Skill is WILL+CHA+INT to start).  To teach a person a Skill, the prospective Instructor MUST have a higher level than their prospective Student IN THE SKILL BEING TAUGHT.  The Instructor must SUBTRACT their skill from their student's skill and DIVIDE that total by 10 (Instructor's Skill - Student's Skill/10) to determine the maximum number of Experience Points the Student may gain from the Instruction.  For example; Siglar is training Edward in Broadsword.  Siglar's Swordsmanship is 85% while Edward's is 40%.  Edward COULD gain 5 Experience Points (4.5 rounding up) from Siglar's instruction IF Siglar succeeds in his Instruction Skill Test.  To gain the Experience Points, the Instructor MUST train the Student for 8 hours AND roll under his Instruction Skill.  If the Instructor is successful, the Student will gain ONE Experience point for that period of training.  A Special Success in the Instruction roll will net TWO Experience Points.  A Critical Success will net the Student THREE Experience Points.  A Student will then treat these training-gained Experience Points like he would normal Experience Points.  If you use a typical 40-hour Training Regimine, the Instructor will have 5 Instruction Rolls to generate Experience Points for the Student.  A Student may not gain more Experience Points that the previously determined limit from an Instructor NO MATTER HOW LONG THEY TRAIN TOGETHER.  A Student may return to a Trainer AFTER gaining Skill through a Skill Gain roll (whether from adventuring experience or training).  Please note that it is possible to train with an Instructor and NOT GAIN ANY Experience Points.  This may be because the Instructor "overstated" his Skill and actually has a LOWER Skill than his Student or because the Instructor FAILS all of his Instruction rolls.  This generally leads to bad feelings between the Instructor and the Student.  The typical cost of this training in my campaign is 10 Silver Guilders/Lunars per hour of instruction.  This cost will vary with the QUALITY of the Instruction.

[Nikoli]

I've always loved the elegance of the CoC mechanic of rolling over, since it controls inflation and power gaming by itself. (I'm rather new to the general BRP and the extra options - I never even knew of them, and yet I had Cthulhu Dark Ages, etc., and always wondered why Chaosium never developed a better combat system - turns out, they did!) But I also love experience points, and feel some room for them is needed.

As I was doing wfrp, I was thinking of the usual 100 xp per session, but now they could be percentile pluses added to experience rolls. E.g., a player might use +25% of his 100% to add to a roll. Magic World allows for an automatic professional skill increase, which I'm wary of, so I'm also wary of allowing 100% on to a single skill. Hmmm.

Actually, now that I think of it, the 100 can be a d100. I.e., they get an extra experience roll over and above their normal INT limit. (Assuming I use that limit.) I think that's ideal. (For me.) For anyone's normal game, this could be a reroll to a failed experience roll. So, a player with 200xp would have two rerolls to use should they fail an important and valued experience check. 

I don't think I'd require training time in-game also, as it wasn't a facet of old wfrp and it would change the feel too much, me thinks. I like the training rules separate. I actually did an M.Sc. in the psychology of expertise, and most of the gains for people, like chess players, occur within tournaments. Real-time feedback is essential. I feel the current system simulates that nicely, though adding in reflection and/or other training is a nice touch depending on the setting and general feel of the game. (With combat, sparring is key, so it's definitely got a place in a simulationist game.)

So it seems most people award experience rolls each session? 

All food for thought.

Thanks!

 

[Atgxtg]

14 hours ago, Nikoli said:

So it seems most people award experience rolls each session? 

Probably not. Most GMs award experience checks each game session, and chances for experience rolls tend to be a bit less frequent. For us it was typically at the end of the adventure and/or when there was a decent amount of downtime in game. You don't want to go too many sessions between rolls or you reach a point where players have most of thier signficant skilled checked and have nothing left to check off. 

As far as XP goes, why bother? If you want to use some sort of reward system, just hand out experience rolls. It will save you the bother o working up point values for things and doing a bunch of math to divi up the XP. One thing to watch out for though is that awarding XP rolls can lead to faster improvement and/or characters improving in things that they never actually used. 

[Nikoli]

The xp is mainly to keep the feel of wfrp for players of wfrp. Or maybe even just for me as a GM handing out a little something at the end. I don't do xp by any dnd encounter method; just 100 xp per session, on average. So a reroll seems ideal for me with BRP.

I like the blend of the system looking after the advancement, in BRP, along with a little treat per session. Even if the experiences rolls are not every session, every session a player is gaining a reroll for the experience rolls they are earning for later.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Nikoli said:

The xp is mainly to keep the feel of wfrp for players of wfrp. Or maybe even just for me as a GM handing out a little something at the end. I don't do xp by any dnd encounter method; just 100 xp per session, on average. So a reroll seems ideal for me with BRP.

I like the blend of the system looking after the advancement, in BRP, along with a little treat per session. Even if the experiences rolls are not every session, every session a player is gaining a reroll for the experience rolls they are earning for later.

1 reroll per session should cause any problems. It will speed up advancement a little, but nothing unbalancing, although it might be a problem once the characters master (i.e. 90%+) some skills. So you might want to place some sort of restriction against using the reroll for very high skills. Or not.