Questions on the History of Balazar

[Darius West]

Looking over Griffin Mountain's History of Balazar (pages 6-7) it actually supports the GSA entry, with the small addition of the name of the 8th Century who returned with the booty being Hargaard Silverfist and no mention of the Greatway Mostali.

Personally I think the idea of the region having occasional old ruins from the EWF is a good idea.  The EWF definitely had a substantial influence on the region prior to the rebellion.

[Noita]

I had a 3rd age Votanki clan living amongst the bones of my 2nd age Dragonewt dinosaur. Odd bunch as they liked cats...

Edited November 30, 2016 by Iskallor

[Jeff]

Balazar likely came from what is now Vanch. Of course, the Vanch of 1082 is quite different from the Vanch of 1626 - a lot has changed in the intervening five centuries.

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I don't have that source, so can't comment,

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/ancestors-of-the-lenshi-kings/

[Jon Hunter]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Balazar likely came from what is now Vanch. Of course, the Vanch of 1082 is quite different from the Vanch of 1626 - a lot has changed in the intervening five centuries.

Any hints at key differences apart from obvious lack of lunars ?

[Darius West]

4 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Any hints at key differences apart from obvious lack of lunars ?

Well they are a mix of Orlanthi and Pelorian cultures living tooth and jowl.  They also steal a lot.  There are a reasonable number of Mostali in the area too in the Jord Mts and Noalastor.  The Hill of Gold is there which should demonstrate the tensions between the Orlanthi and Yelmalios pretty well, and New Lolon (which is a major Yelmalio settlement since the Dawn).  Odds on that the Hero Balazar came from there.  Of course Ithmer also has a good proportion of Yelmalios. There is a tribe called the Blue Deer.  The local dynasty is the  Bison Kings who have been there since the battle of Argentium Thri'ile in the Second Age when the EWF used them as mercenaries and trashed the local horse riders.

[Darius West]

23 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Very true. But I find it hard when the stuff is so awful. I like working from canon first myself and listening to all of you lots non canonical ideas, which are far better.

Yes, because everything in and about GSA is just "awful".   The very notion that someone could take a formative period in Gloranthan history when there were empires able to reach, trade with and even conquer all the distant parts of Glorantha is just an "awful" idea.  Personally I think it is brave that anyone was prepared to actually write up such a dauntingly large concept.  If it isn't all gold, so what?  Also, it provides great ideas for 3rd age ruins and treasures.  If it breaches canon it does so only occasionally, and on points that can be glossed over.  Nothing GS hasn't done in the past.  If you want bad supplements, look at Griffin Island and the Lost City of Eldarad (Pavis Lite, just one calorie, not Pavis enough).

Edited November 30, 2016 by Darius West

[David Scott]

There's an interesting map in the Fortunate Succession of Vanch around 1082 (Map 13, page 40 in my edition). It shows Vanch occupied by Horse Nomads and Zarkosians, with Balazar entering what becomes Balazar in 1082. The other maps show the area that becomes Vanch is the land of the Zarkosites around 111000, then marked as Vanch tribes around 111200 with the forest encroaching on the land. If the Vanch tribes are storm worshippers, then the Zarkosites are the Pelorian culture mentioned. Later maps show that humans become dominant around 900 in what becomes Balazar. Bikhy existed at the Dawn, with a population of 100 or so. As it's built in the Dara Happan style, I imagine this population is the Zarkosites. The Storm tribes must of come from elsewhere.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

They also steal a lot.

I'm intrigued as to the source of this. Is this both cultures? What's a lot - more than the norm?

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

The Hill of Gold is there which should demonstrate the tensions between the Orlanthi and Yelmalios pretty well.

Why? It's a Solar holy place. The conflict is part of an established myth. That doesn't mean the quest conflict transfers the day to day lives of the population.

[Darius West]

12 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'm intrigued as to the source of this. Is this both cultures? What's a lot - more than the norm?

The source is page 339 of the Guide to Glorantha.  It says that Vanchites are mercenary and pragmatic people who worship any god who can aid them, and that they have a reputation as thieves.  Think about it.  If your neighbors aren't of the same pantheon as you, why wouldn't you steal, and why wouldn't they steal things back?  It becomes a local sport that annoys non-competitors.

22 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Why? It's a Solar holy place. The conflict is part of an established myth. That doesn't mean the quest conflict transfers the day to day lives of the population.

LOL! A "Solar" holy place?  Most humorous.  The Hill of Gold is where Orlanth kicks the tar out of Yelmalio, then Zorak Zoran drinks his blood and gains his fire powers.  Given it is a place where gods of Storm and Darkness regularly come to ritually humiliate and whallop Yelmalio into submission, it is a funny thing to say that it is solar.  On the other hand it is a very Yelmalio local community, all as dedicated as football fans of a team that never wins.  Perhaps it is a solar holy place, given that the "gold" of the Hill of Gold is the copious flow of Yelmalio's blood?  A sad, humiliating commemoration of a defeat that is repeated over and over again.  

[M Helsdon]

43 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 On the other hand it is a very Yelmalio local community, all as dedicated as football fans of a team that never wins.  Perhaps it is a solar holy place, given that the "gold" of the Hill of Gold is the copious flow of Yelmalio's blood?  A sad, humiliating commemoration of a defeat that is repeated over and over again.  

There are several files of Yelmalion Templars waiting outside to have a word with you...

In the Great Darkness just about every deity suffered a humiliating defeat - at least all the ones who weren't utterly destroyed. Even Orlanth.

The Hill of Gold is an important Yelmalion pilgrimage site, not just because of the opportunity to find crystalized pieces of their god's blood, but because it is a place where the Hill of Gold heroquest can be performed for various rewards, including defeating their god's enemies...

48 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The source is page 339 of the Guide to Glorantha.  It says that Vanchites are mercenary and pragmatic people who worship any god who can aid them, and that they have a reputation as thieves.  Think about it.  If your neighbors aren't of the same pantheon as you, why wouldn't you steal, and why wouldn't they steal things back?  It becomes a local sport that annoys non-competitors.

It says: Fairly or unfairly, the Vanchites have a reputation as thieves.

Whilst there are local variations, the Vanchites are a mixture of Orlanthi and Solar farming cultures dating back to the First Age. Given their geographic and historical position, on the ever shifting border between Solar and Storm empires, it is hardly surprising that the Vanchites are pragmatists.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

A sad, humiliating commemoration of a defeat that is repeated over and over again.  

That's how holy places work. Just because something bad happened doesn't detract that it's a holy place. Places where people are, born, die, do things become holy places. We've loads of them in the real world. 

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

 Perhaps it is a solar holy place, given that the "gold" of the Hill of Gold is the copious flow of Yelmalio's blood?  A sad, humiliating commemoration of a defeat that is repeated over and over again.  

The best RW parallel would be Golgotha.  Pilgrims there don't think it sad nor humilating.

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, metcalph said:

We know the Votanki are Zarkosites because Votank is mentioned in connection with Durbaddath on the Gods Wall (Guide p677)

Actually, no, we don't know this.

The text (which is Plentonius' in-world perspective) simply says that Durbaddath is "called the Father of Ergesh [equated with Zarkos in next entry by the commentator] and Votank"; and that the commentator adds "This story is unknown to Durbaddath cultists in Votankiland (later called Balazar)" which suggests it is a Kostaddi story about enslaving both the Zarkosites and the Votanki.

If you check out the Dawn Age map on p.709, you'll see that the Zarkosites are based at Zulox north of Imther (along border of Tork, Vanch, and Kostaddi) while the Votanki are in Votankiland at Arau.  Nothing I've seen to this point equates the two cultures even though both are fairly primitive.

 

19 hours ago, metcalph said:

as coming from the region of Votankiland

Looking at the map, I'd call it the Arcos river basin, not Votankiland. 

The Dawn Age Zarkosites, followers of Durbaddath, Uryarda, and Zarkos the Ancestor do not necessarily sound like Starlight Ancestors.  It's feasible, but not enough information available to convince me on that.  That said, there are similarities in names between Z(arcos) and Arcos, Garsting, and Jarst that suggest the Zarkosites originally dwelt in the Arcos River valley and ended up in the Darkness passing through the Gap of Tork to their sacred breeding site at Zulox.

 

19 hours ago, metcalph said:

I can't find the reference to Rigtaina in Griffin Mountain so I can't comment.

In the Glorantha Classics reprint pdf it's on p. 21.  "The Balazarings worship several deities. Notable among them are Yelmalio (the patron to the tribal nobility who dwell in their massive citadels of cyclopean stone), Balazar (the Founder god of the nation), Rigtaina the hunting nymph (wife of Balazar and daughter to Foundchild), the Hearth Mother (preserving the sacred fire so necessary to life), and Foundchild the Hunting God (who blesses his grandchildren as they direct
their lives in that pursuit)."

This would place her as a Velhara/Lady of the Wild type of deity.  Doesn't preclude being a minor land goddess, daughter of Pelora, but would mean she's a goddess of wild places not agriculture.

 

19 hours ago, metcalph said:

does not mention Teshna or Kralora either

Teshna gets a brief mention on p.433 of the Guide, but as you note Kralora does not.  The Glorantha Sourcebook is expanding our canonical info about the deities, and clearly both are significant figures.  But you are correct that silence does not preclude her from being the land goddess of the area, if there was/is one and such a goddess survived the Darkness.  I'm fine with Rigtaina as that option but there is no indication if she is that she held the land together even to the extent that Dorasta did in her piece of the world.

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, David Scott said:

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/ancestors-of-the-lenshi-kings/

Thank you David!

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

The source is page 339 of the Guide to Glorantha.  It says that Vanchites are mercenary and pragmatic people who worship any god who can aid them, and that they have a reputation as thieves.

The Vanchites follow Tunoral the Raccoon God and Negalla the Green Woman.  If they find something, and can use it, they do.  Magics, myths, rituals, fragments of stories, and whatever else is of use.  And when it doesn't work any more, they find something else.  It's a hodge-podge of ever-changing clans, washed over again and again by Orlanthi and Pelorian (DH and Lunar), even Sairdite, Praxian (Bison riders), and horse nomad cultures.  But their cultural outlook persists.

In the years leading up to 1080 ST, Vanch was ruled by Saird (FS map 40), but subsequently revolted (FS map 42).  Likely this is a resurgence of Orlanthi vs. lowlanders.  In the aftermath of Dragonkill, with DH and Yelmalions wiped out, Orlanthi ways would predominate.  Until the rise of the Lunars and particularly the Conquering Daughter.

You can read some bits in my posts here:

 

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

 The Hill of Gold is where Orlanth kicks the tar out of Yelmalio, then Zorak Zoran drinks his blood and gains his fire powers.  Given it is a place where gods of Storm and Darkness regularly come to ritually humiliate and whallop Yelmalio into submission, it is a funny thing to say that it is solar.  On the other hand it is a very Yelmalio local community, all as dedicated as football fans of a team that never wins.  Perhaps it is a solar holy place, given that the "gold" of the Hill of Gold is the copious flow of Yelmalio's blood?  A sad, humiliating commemoration of a defeat that is repeated over and over again.

Yes, but... Yelmalio lived.  Orlanth died.  Most of the other gods died.  Even much of chaos died.  Yelmalio lived.  And the Hill of Gold was where he survived.  It is the place of the Last Light that survived in the world.  That is why it is a solar holy site.  Not an Orlanthi holy site. 

 

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

Bikhy existed at the Dawn, with a population of 100 or so. As it's built in the Dara Happan style, I imagine this population is the Zarkosites.

No, the Zarkosites are east of Bikhy at Zulox.  Bikhy is one of the home of the Tunoralings, the followers of Tunoral the Raccoon god (as well as Heliacal the
Sun and Negalla the Green Woman), the other primary site being Lolon. 

[Noita]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, but... Yelmalio lived.  Orlanth died.  Most of the other gods died.  Even much of chaos died.  Yelmalio lived.  And the Hill of Gold was where he survived.  It is the place of the Last Light that survived in the world.  That is why it is a solar holy site.  Not an Orlanthi holy site. 

 

+1

It's where you go as a Yelmalion to gain your Fire magic by winning or emulate your god and lose against your enemies. Perfect devotee stuff.

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

It says: Fairly or unfairly, the Vanchites have a reputation as thieves.

If people have a reputation as thieves it is inevitably a well founded accusation.  They may not ALL be thieves but thievery will be a well established cultural practice.  You see, many people may throw around an accusation against their neighbors, but when it sticks, it is likely to be substantially true.  The Sartarites and Praxians raid for livestock, but they don't get called thieves for doing so, despite the fact it is definitely a form of thievery.  Why not?  Because it is within culturally acceptable and understood definitions.  Apparently the Vanchites have annoyed enough people over the centuries to gain a reputation, and travelers would be well advised to listen.

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, but... Yelmalio lived.  Orlanth died.  Most of the other gods died.  Even much of chaos died.  Yelmalio lived.  And the Hill of Gold was where he survived.  It is the place of the Last Light that survived in the world.  That is why it is a solar holy site.  Not an Orlanthi holy site. 

ORLY?  Orlanth died?  So, that whole Lightbringer Quest... Never happened?  Yelm is still in Hell too apparently. What about Zorak Zoran?  Did he die too?  That means that Kajabor is still out there and the Great Compromise never happened.  Silly Sun worshipers. 

[M Helsdon]

26 minutes ago, Darius West said:

If people have a reputation as thieves it is inevitably a well founded accusation.  They may not ALL be thieves but thievery will be a well established cultural practice.  You see, many people may throw around an accusation against their neighbors, but when it sticks, it is likely to be substantially true.  The Sartarites and Praxians raid for livestock, but they don't get called thieves for doing so, despite the fact it is definitely a form of thievery.  Why not?  Because it is within culturally acceptable and understood definitions.  Apparently the Vanchites have annoyed enough people over the centuries to gain a reputation, and travelers would be well advised to listen.

The more likely answer is that Vanch is a mixture of Sun and Storm cultures, and those two cultures have very different attitudes to hierarchy and honour.  Sun-worshippers consider Orlanthi to be rebels and thieves, because raiding is integral to their culture, whilst Storm-worshippers consider Sun-worshippers to be ruled by those who take but rarely bestow their wealth to their followers. (The two cultures have very different views, for example, on dividing up plunder in war - the Orlanthi have a relatively fair method of dividing spoil, whilst with Sun-worshippers the leader can take the lot, and only has to give out what they want to give out). Mix and merge those two traditions, and you end up with cultural practices which probably seem wrong to surrounding regions that are fully one or the other.

26 minutes ago, Darius West said:

ORLY?  Orlanth died?  So, that whole Lightbringer Quest... Never happened?  Yelm is still in Hell too apparently. What about Zorak Zoran?  Did he die too?  That means that Kajabor is still out there and the Great Compromise never happened.  Silly Sun worshipers. 

All the Lightbringers went to the Underworld, which is the equivalent of death for those not native to the Underworld. The Sun Emperor was there because he was killed by Orlanth wielding Death. Many deities died, meaning that they are not permanently 'alive' which is why the Sun sets every day to spend time in the Underworld before rising to life again. Orlanth's Ring of stars rises in the sky and falls. There's a distinction between deities who never died, those who died, those who stayed dead - often because their parts were dismembered - and those that were utterly destroyed and can never come back. The Red Goddess is an example of a dismembered deity, who was put back together in Time, and so lives again.

Edited December 1, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Jeff]

Of course Orlanth died. He left the Middle World and descended into the Underworld, which pretty much is the definition of death. He performed the Lightbringers Quest and saved the cosmos - as a result he spends part of the time in the heavens and part of the time in the Underworld. Just like Yelm. In fact, just like almost every deity. 

[Darius West]

Just now, M Helsdon said:

The more likely answer is that Vanch is a mixture of Sun and Storm cultures, and those two cultures have very different attitudes to hierarchy and honour.  Sun-worshippers consider Orlanthi to be rebels and thieves, because raiding is integral to their culture, whilst Storm-worshippers consider Sun-worshippers to be ruled by those who take but rarely bestow their wealth to their followers. (The two cultures have very different views, for example, on dividing up plunder in war - the Orlanthi have a relatively fair method of dividing spoil, whilst with Sun-worshippers the leader can take the lot, and only has to give out what they want to give out). Mix and merge those two traditions, and you end up with cultural practices which probably seem wrong to surrounding regions that are fully one or the other.

You are utterly ignoring the part where it says that the Vanchites are MERCENARY and PRAGMATIC, and worship any god they think will aid them.  These are not very honorable people, they sell out their principles to the highest bidder.  No doubt thievery is merely a manifestation of that mercenary pragmatism.  We don't know what the agriculture and trade is like in Vanch, but the suggestion is "not great", as poverty is a good reason for thieving to start.  Vanch may well be the home of the Lanbril cult, as Lanbril myths do mention contact with the Solar cults, and it has to start somewhere. The fact is that Storm and Sun cults manage to exist elsewhere without resorting to calling each other thieves over division of spoils etc, PLUS there is the issue that it isn't one group or the other who have the reputation, but ALL Vanchites, Storm, Solar Lunar whatever... they all have the reputation.  Non-Vanchites think Vanchites are thieves, not because of their cults and their practices, but because many Vanchites steal things, probably even from their supposed allies, when the opportunity presents itself.  THAT is how you get a reputation as thieves.

11 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

All the Lightbringers went to the Underworld, which is the equivalent of death for those not native to the Underworld. The Sun Emperor was there because he was killed by Orlanth wielding Death. Many deities died, meaning that they are not permanently 'alive' which is why the Sun sets every day to spend time in the Underworld before rising to life again. Orlanth's Ring of stars rises in the sky and falls. There's a distinction between deities who never died, those who died, those who stayed dead - often because their parts were dismembered - and those that were utterly destroyed and can never come back.

So what you are saying is that all trolls are undead because they come from the underworld and if you are in the underworld you are dead by definition? Immortals can enter and leave the underworld as they please if they know the way, and are only forced to go there if they actually die.  The Lightbringers didn't die, they physically entered the underworld voluntarily under their own power as deities.  Nobody killed them.  When Sir Ethilrist or any other hero quester go into the underworld, they aren't dead unless they get killed.  Now Orlanth will get into dire trouble after the capture of Whitewall, but not on the Hill of Gold.

[M Helsdon]

10 minutes ago, Darius West said:

You are utterly ignoring the part where it says that the Vanchites are MERCENARY and PRAGMATIC, and worship any god they think will aid them.  

No, I am saying why they are pragmatic.

10 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Vanch may well be the home of the Lanbril cult, as Lanbril myths do mention contact with the Solar cults, and it has to start somewhere.

The Lanbril 'cult' is not a unified cult. Lanbril is one of several thief gods.

11 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So what you are saying is that all trolls are undead because they come from the underworld and if you are in the underworld you are dead by definition? 

No, I referred to gods not native to the Underworld. If you are not native to the Underworld and go there, you are effectively dead, unless you can get out.

13 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The Lightbringers didn't die, they physically entered the underworld voluntarily under their own power as deities.  

They managed to get in, but getting out was far more difficult. They were in the Halls of the Dead - which means they were dead themselves.

14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 When Sir Ethilrist or any other hero quester go into the underworld, they aren't dead unless they get killed. 

They are dead unless they can find a way out. Some Heroes get in and out of the Underworld several times, but if they fail once, they remain dead.

15 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Now Orlanth will get into dire trouble after the capture of Whitewall, but not on the Hill of Gold.

After the fall of Whitewall, Orlanth was trapped in the Underworld: his stars did not follow their cycle.

Neither Orlanth nor Yelmalio died at the Hill of Gold.

You need to read The Guide to Glorantha, not MRQ supplements.

[Jeff]

Trolls are not undead. The mistress race resided in the Underworld and made their way to the Middle World (and thus the world of the living). Now members of the Zorak Zoran cult sometimes use magic so that their spirits can animate the dead body - that's a type of undead, as it defies Death (in a way that persuading the spirit to return to the world of the living AFTER it has already separated from the body does not).

And immortals cannot enter and leave the Underworld as they please if they know the way. They can only enter and leave the Underworld if they did so during the God Time. And back then there was a term used for sending a being to the Underworld. That term was (and is) Death,

 

[Darius West]

Just now, M Helsdon said:

(1) No, I am saying why they are pragmatic.

(2) The Lanbril 'cult' is not a unified cult. Lanbril is one of several thief gods.

(3) No, I referred to gods not native to the Underworld. If you are not native to the Underworld and go there, you are effectively dead, unless you can get out.

(4) They managed to get in, but getting out was far more difficult. They were in the Halls of the Dead - which means they were dead themselves.

(5) They are dead unless they can find a way out. Some Heroes get in and out of the Underworld several times, but if they fail once, they remain dead.

(6) After the fall of Whitewall, Orlanth was trapped in the Underworld: his stars did not follow their cycle.

(7) Neither Orlanth nor Yelmalio died at the Hill of Gold.

(8) You need to read The Guide to Glorantha, not MRQ supplements.

(1) Many people are mercenaries in Glorantha, many are pragmatic, but few have a reputation as thieves.

(2) In truth we have precious little backstory on Lanbril, or Vanch for that matter.  Lanbril has to come from somewhere, so why not Vanch?  I hear there is a whole hill of gold.

(3) That isn't even true of mortal hero questers like Sir Ethilrist, much less for deities.  Also, where do trolls go when they die if what you say is true?  As denizens of the underworld according to your logic they cannot die.

(4) So when you visit a grave are you dead?  When you keep a graveyard are you dead?  When you raid a tomb are you dead?  A deity can visit the halls of the dead without dying, much like a human can visit the Valley of the Kings without dying.  Not to say that either is without potential risks.

(5) Yes.  But they are not dead BECAUSE they are in the underworld, they are in danger because the underworld is potentially dangerous.

(6) True.  And relevant.  If Orlanth's Ring only drops out of its cycle when Orlanth is dead, then obviously Orlanth wasn't dead at other times.

(7) True.  But there were clear winners and losers.  Yelmalio lost his fire powers because he keeps losing at the Hill of Gold.  The real winner IMO was Zorak Zoran.

(8) Man cannot live by canon alone. YGMV.