Jump to content

Firearms


Recommended Posts

Now I am beginning to suspect that I have a language problem, because in

German a musket is defined as a muzzle loading smoothbore weapon ? :confused:

Not a language problem. We have the same definition in English. However the word rifle is often used inaccurately to represent any longarm, and not just rifled ones.

Occasionally the term "rifled musket" is tossed around when referring to early rifled firearms, especially when talking about converted weapons that started off as smoothbore weapons.

Part of the difficulty in BRP terms is that muskets are covered under the "rifle" skill. Quite sensible in RPG terms, but another source of confusion.

BTW, what term do you use in German to refer to a breech-loading smoothbore weapon?

I think some of the disagreement over the range of a musket is at least partially due to this confusion. If the musket in the BRP book is something along the lines of a Springfield .58, I withdraw my objection over it's range of 60. Everything I've seen about the older muskets indicates that their effective range was in the order of 50-100 paces.

Edited by Atgxtg

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 103
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

BTW, what term do you use in German to refer to a breech-loading smoothbore weapon.

It would most probably be called a "Flinte", although this word is mostly used

for shotguns.

Edit.:

Yep, that's it. There once were two words, "Flinte" (for a weapon firing bul-

lets) and "Schrotflinte" (for shotguns), but when smoothbore weapons firing

bullets disappeared, the shorter "Flinte" became used for the shotguns.

Edited by rust

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not a language problem. We have the same definition in English. However the word rifle is often used inaccurately to represent any longarm, and not just rifled ones.

Woe, woe, woe, are you implying that in Star Trek, the average phaser rifle is in fact, not rifled? What about a blaster rifle in Star Wars? You have just turned my whole world on end. :shocked:

Next thing you'll be telling me is that x-wings and tie fighters wouldn't actually fight in space like a WWII dog fight. :mad:

At least I still have Santa.

;)

Rod

Join my Mythras/RuneQuest 6: Classic Fantasy Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RQCF/info

"D100 - Exactly 5 times better than D20"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't forget the Easter Bunny. :)

That little furry bastard has gotten so good at hiding the eggs that I haven't been able to find them since my daughter grew up and moved out. We'll have no discussion about him here. :D

Join my Mythras/RuneQuest 6: Classic Fantasy Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RQCF/info

"D100 - Exactly 5 times better than D20"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Woe, woe, woe, are you implying that in Star Trek, the average phaser rifle is in fact, not rifled? What about a blaster rifle in Star Wars? You have just turned my whole world on end. :shocked:

Well, technically, no. I'm not implying that at all. You might be inferring that, but for all we know those weapons might actually be rifled. If compression phasers can compress and energy beam then rifling isn't out of the question. Who knows, maybe they use a rifled grove to create a magnetic field in order to keep the beam coherent. It would almost make sense for a particle beam or plasma weapon.

rifledphaser.jpg

Next thing you'll be telling me is that x-wings and tie fighters wouldn't actually fight in space like a WWII dog fight. :mad:

Not unless they used the stats for a TIE or X-Wing under "fighter" in BRP. I wouldn't want to see a Spitfire listed as having a Class 1 hyperdrive, or capable of Warp 6.I'm not even going to bring up the issue of sound, since we all know that sound does indeed travel in a cinema.

At least I still have Santa.

No you don't. I just saw him down at the mall, and he can't be at two places at once, can he? Considering what his "elf" looked like I can see why he is always so jolly.

P.S. ->I want an elf for Christmas.

Edited by Atgxtg

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

rifledphaser.jpg

Ok, I'm going to give you that one, because springs can look like rifling.

No you don't. I just saw him down at the mall, and he can't be at two places at once, can he? Considering what his "elf" looked like I can see why he is always so jolly.

P.S. ->I want an elf for Christmas.

On this we can both agree.

Now no more posts Atgxtg! You must be stopped. http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/outside-hive/1727-world-end-before-2012-a.html

Rod

Edited by threedeesix

Join my Mythras/RuneQuest 6: Classic Fantasy Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RQCF/info

"D100 - Exactly 5 times better than D20"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So at least the elite units of the Chinese army probably were armed with such

rifles after 1864.

I think there may be some translation issues involved here.

Edit.:

It obviously was a Chinese copy of a Remington rifle, produced at Jiangnan Ar-

senal in Shanghai with machines imported from the USA. However, I have not

found an information which Remington model it was.

Now I know it is not a true bolt action rifle. In 1864 Remington had just introduced there rolling block single shot rifle, which is most certainly not a bolt action. The Remington Rolling Block was widely adopted for military service and my books do show Chinese proof marks, though China was never a Remington customer, which suggests local production. 1864 does still seem early, the first country to officially adopt the Rolling Block was Denmark in 1867.

For comparison Remington's first bolt action rifle was the Remington-Keane Magazine Bolt Action Rifle, about 5000 of which were produced between 1880 and 1888 (and very high on my wish list). As far as I know the first official adoption of a bolt action rifle was the Mauser single shot in 1871.

[EDIT] Did some more checking and there is no existing records of a licensing agreement or machinery sales between Remington and China. Production in China is not believed to have started before the mid-1870s.

Edited by Rob Thomas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now I am beginning to suspect that I have a language problem, because in

German a musket is defined as a muzzle loading smoothbore weapon ? :confused:

If only Americanized English was that simple. As Atgxtg said, we tend to use the term rifle rather freely for any ongarm that fires bullets, and most non-shooters would include shotguns. Musket would be used purely for smoothbores except the powers that be officially titled the Model 1861 and 1863 "Rifle Musket". Skimming through a few of my books on the period provided no enlightenment as to why. Rifle had been used for earlier rifled longarms. Musket suddenly becomes common usage for any flintlock or percussion longarm. It could be worse, we could be discussing Kentucky rifles or semi-automatic revolvers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I Skimming through a few of my books on the period provided no enlightenment as to why. Rifle had been used for earlier rifled longarms. Musket suddenly becomes common usage for any flintlock or percussion longarm.

I've read that the reason why the term Rifled Musket was coined was because of the mini-ball. Back in the 19th century, muskets had faster reload times than rifles, because the bullet had to fit tightly into the groove to benefit from the rifling.

The mini-ball was smaller than the bore of the gun, allowing it to be loaded fast like in a musket, but since the mini-ball's skirt expanded when fired, allowing it to hold to the grooved and be spin stabilized, like a rifle.

So the term "Rifled Musket" seems to be a marketing term to suggest musket speed, rifle accuracy. It died a few years later with the introduction of breech loading rifles.

Also many of the early rifled musket were in fact muskets that had rifled added to accommodate the mini-ball.

In retrospect, the term Rifle, Musket might be even more accurate for the weapon in BRP!

Edited by Atgxtg

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm putting together a short table with some sample weapons of the era.

Thanks a lot. That'll be helpful! :thumb:

Just to be sure, can you clarify just where the campaign is set?

China, until 1911 (end of the Qing dynasty) -- so that includes the Opium Wars, and the Taiping and Boxer rebellions, as well as the various wars between the Qing and the Muslims of Central/Inner Asia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1864 does still seem early, the first country to officially adopt the Rolling Block was Denmark in 1867.

Meanwhile I have found some other dates, and the majority puts the founda-

tion of the modern Jiangnan Arsenal into 1865 instead of 1864, but they all

agree that it immediately began to produce modern "western" arms.

The best source for the true story would probably be a biography of the man

who founded the arsenal, Zen Guofang, a high ranking military leader during

the Taiping Rebellion and then a leader of the Self-Strengthening Movement

to outfit the Chinese forces with modern weapons.

There are a number of such biographies, but the more reliable ones (e.g. pub-

lished by history departments of universities) are hugely expensive.

Edit.:

I think I have understood it now. The arsenal did indeed begin to produce

rifles in 1864 or 1865, with machines and technicians of an American firm

in Shanghai, Hunt and Company. However, these rifles were considered a

failure, and therefore from 1871 onwards the Remington model was produ-

ced. I wonder what the earlier rifles were like, but to find that out would

probably take more research time than I am prepared to spend.

Edited by rust

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ooh! Does it include the '97 nightmare of Hong Kong invaded? :lol:

Not really, but you could certainly use Tiān Xià to play adventures set against the background of the Manchu-Cossack wars (see Albazino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I have understood it now. The arsenal did indeed begin to produce

rifles in 1864 or 1865, with machines and technicians of an American firm

in Shanghai, Hunt and Company. However, these rifles were considered a

failure, and therefore from 1871 onwards the Remington model was produ-

ced. I wonder what the earlier rifles were like, but to find that out would

probably take more research time than I am prepared to spend.

None of my books list Hunt and Company as anything other then an import/export company so that does not help identify the rifle, but I did find this'

"Imperial General Tso Tsung T'ang had established a modern arsenal and a dockyard at Foochow on the coast in 1864 and Imperial General Tseng Kuo Feng had founded Kiangnan Arsenal at Shanghai in 1865. Rifled muskets, bayonets and swords were produced."

Based on the fact that the 1861 Rifle Musket was produced by at least 25 companies in addition to US arsenals I would be willing to bet that one or more sold off their machinery after completing their government contract, and it ended up in China. The 1861 is a nice design, but it is easy to imagine machinery that has already seen hard use not being up to snuff, especially having been shipped half way round the world. And cutting edge technology it was not by the time production commenced in 1864-65.

The Remington Rolling Block would have been a huge improvement, followed by Mausers in the late 1870s and then Remington-Lees in the early 1880s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

None of my books list Hunt and Company as anything other then an import/export company

Ah, that does make sense. The source I used was a bit unclear, and with

that background it becomes likely that Hunt and Company imported the

machines and hired the technicians (up to 600 foreign technicians, accor-

ding to this source) for the arsenal.

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what we would likely see would be mostly smoothbores with some rifled muskets, and the odd percussion cap or breach loading weapon?

Percussion muskets and rifles would not be uncommon. Anything else would be a rarity. If 600 foreign techs did come over in 64-65 you could be looking at a small number of Henry, Sharps and Spencer rifles (and carbines) entering the country with them. roleplaying characters being unique individuals in their environment you could probably justify anything you wanted - Volcanic lever-action pistols and a heavy barreled Sharps anyone?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what we would likely see would be mostly smoothbores with some rifled muskets, and the odd percussion cap or breach loading weapon?

I think that percussion caps would be quite rare, because I did not find any

information that the caps were produced in quantity or otherwise easily avai-

lable in China. I know of a similar situation in Arabia, where such weapons we-

re disliked because it was so difficult to obtain the necessary caps.

Otherwise, if my sources paint the right picture, composite bows and cross-

bows would still be more common - even as military weapons - than firearms

up to at least 1800, perhaps even up to the Taiping Rebellion.

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Percussion muskets and rifles would not be uncommon. Anything else would be a rarity. If 600 foreign techs did come over in 64-65 you could be looking at a small number of Henry, Sharps and Spencer rifles (and carbines) entering the country with them. roleplaying characters being unique individuals in their environment you could probably justify anything you wanted - Volcanic lever-action pistols and a heavy barreled Sharps anyone?

I'll pass on the Volcanic. The Sharps isn't bad. It's Reliable and with range about as good as any firearm of the era. But I think I'll take the Spencer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Otherwise, if my sources paint the right picture, composite bows and cross-

bows would still be more common - even as military weapons - than firearms

up to at least 1800, perhaps even up to the Taiping Rebellion.

Certainly. The Chinese general Yuán Shìkǎi famously killed his enemies using his bow during the First Sino-Japanese War (1894-95).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jiangnan Arsenal questions.

I'm working on the list of firearms, and I was wondering if anyone had any more info on Jiangnan Arsenal's early firearms.

Were they producing copies of Remington rifles, or Remington Revolvers (1858)? And is the 1861 rifle mentioned a copy of the "Springfield" 1861 or some Remington weapon that I am unaware of?

I got data for a few period weapons, but I'm not sure just which ones would have made it into the region. I'd assume that some of the US and British Military Rifles like the Springfields and Enfields would have been produced in enough numbers for export, but probably not too much else.

I starting to think that while there might be some local copies of modern Western firearms, there would probably be quite a few older muskets still in service. A firearm was a valuable item, and newer models would be scare in a land with such a high population. So probably any firearm from the 1500s on that at least looked functional was treasured by somebody.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jiangnan Arsenal questions.

My most reliable (= academic) source has only the information below - sorry,

copy and paste was disabled.

More could probably be found here, but I do not know how to get access to

this:

Thomas Kennedy, "The Establishment and Development of the Kiangnan

Arsenal, 1860-95" (Columbia University Ph.D. dissertation in History, 1968)

post-246-140468074357_thumb.png

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...