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m0n0cular

Orlanth without Ernalda?

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There's a bit of a difference here between the Earth as a whole, which is Ernalda or her sister Esrola, and the Land as in the location, which are their daughters,

In Ralios, the land is Ralia, and she provides the bounty which supports the clan, but her mother is Esrola/Ernalda, and so their cults are entwined.

In Peloria, the land is Pelora whose mother is still Ernalda/Esrola and their cults are shared. (The Dara Happans call her Pela, and her mother Oria.)

In Esrolia, the land is Esrola or Esra (depending on who you ask).

In all these lands (and others) Ernalda is the primary Earth goddess of the Orlanthi (although often under different names), and worship of her will allow you access to the goddess of the land, the goddess of other lands -- and thus their bounty, leading to them also being known as grain goddesses -- the animal mothers, and other goddess of earth and fertility.

It also means that your Pelorian Orlanthi priestess of Pelora, journeying in far off Ralios (for some reason or other) can still reach her goddess in the temples of Ralia, through their shared mother.

 

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Orlanth without Ernalda?  Now that's a place that rains a lot cuz he's so sad.  Awwwwww!

But on a serious note Tindalos is obviously a God Learner!  Oria might be like Ernalda, but saying she is Ernalda is a God Learner construct.

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One example is an area like Balazar which does not have any sustained agriculture.  There Orlanth may be the husband of Velhara, Lady of the Wild (perhaps under the name Rigtaina the Hunting Nymph).  There are myths of the times when Orlanth pursued the Lady of the Wild, and they had at least one child, Odayla the Bear.

 

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Although Orlanth is bonded to the Earth Mother, he obliviously had 'encounters' before, and during his husbandry to Ernalda, like any of the mythological rulers did.  Odin was not entirely faithful to Freya, and Zues was certainly never exclusive with Hera (despite her jealousy and wrath at such).I'm not sure when the dalliance with the Lady Of The Wild  occured, but that won't be the only myth in which Orlanth shares the affections of a goddess who isn't Ernalda.

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My understanding of Orlanth-lore is that Orlanth was more notable for how much he strayed, rather than for being sexually-faithful; of course, Ernalda herself is notable for how VERY many husbands she has!

So THAT aspect of things isn't really an issue -- more like an "open marriage" and/or "group marriage" rather than "cheating!"
 

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On 12/8/2016 at 4:17 AM, m0n0cular said:

What do Orlanthi tribes do in lands where the earth isn't Ernalda? For instance, in Peloria or Ralios. 

Behave just a little better than Vadrudi, like outlaw bikers who don't feel the need to prove their 1% status when it is not questioned.  Expect little or no farming, lots of hunting, keeping thralls to do most of the boring (i.e., real) work, almost always War Clans, and grudging at best adherence to LM's precedents cited at the moots.  No underhusbands, let alone Esolian husbands.

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In the early Mycenaean Age, the sky god Dyeus (who would become the Hellenic deity Zeus) wasn't a husband of the Moon-Earth goddess Hebe/Theria (the pre-Hellenic version of Zeus's wife, Hera). I think Dyeus was probably depicted as an even more primal version of Zeus. I'm not sure how those who tried to emulate him acted, but the 'rogue-roustabout-raider' concept may have been right, and would be a good analogy for these Orlanthi.

So perhaps an increased focus on the Orlanth Adventurous aspect.

'Reckless' may be a prominent keyword :-)

Edited by Mankcam
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Ernalda is only the land Goddess of Ernaldela, which sank in the God Time. Everywhere else, she is the prime Earth Goddess, above the Land Goddesses.

Orlanth without Ernalda would probably worship Orlanth in his youth, the adventuring, pillaging, thieving, abducting Orlanth.

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19 hours ago, Mankcam said:

In the early Mycenaean Age, the sky god Dyeus (who would become the Hellenic deity Zeus) wasn't a husband of the Moon-Earth goddess Hebe/Theria (the pre-Hellenic version of Zeus's wife, Hera). I think Dyeus was probably depicted as an even more primal version of Zeus. I'm not sure how those who tried to emulate him acted, but the 'rogue-roustabout-raider' concept may have been right, and would be a good analogy for these Orlanthi.

So perhaps an increased focus on the Orlanth Adventurous aspect.

'Reckless' may be a prominent keyword :-)

May I know your source of information sir? I've been trying to find information on Mycenaean era mythologies, and so far have come up with a blank. 

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From my hazy memory...but you should be able to find some bits n pieces over the web if you hunt about.  The Mycenean info is much harder to find than the later period. Much of it got incorporated into the Hellenic myths and lore, with no direct porting, such as Dyeus exploits attributed later to two separate Hellenic deities, Zeus and Dionysus. I remember reading last year  that the goddess Hebe and Theria were the same goddess in Mycenanen legends who got morphed into Hera later on. Yet the name Hebe shows up later as one of Hera's daughters, so its all pretty confusing.

The big issue is that often the Myceanan information is scattered, rather than compiled under its own subject. Sometimes you will be reading about an ancient Hellenic deity, and in the description there may be references to the Myceanan origins of that deity.  

I don't have a particular site to re-enforce my statement, but you could take a look at these. There will be people here on this forum who know this stuff much better than me, and they can probably provide you with much better links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus

https://goddessinspired.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/hera-the-pre-hellenic-great-mother-goddess-of-the-minoans-and-mycenaean-greeks/

http://www.ancient.eu/Mycenaean_Civilization/

http://ancient-greece.org/history/bronze-age.html

http://www.theoi.com/

http://www.mythweb.com/encyc/index.html

http://www.greekmythology.com/

Sometimes you will find Myceanan information looking under the Achaeans, as it is an interchanable term. However this is also problematic, as the Achaean name remained in Hellenic times and by this time referred to a particular ethnicity of Hellenic culture, alongside the Dorians and Ionians, so most Archaean information often pertains to this rather than the earlier Myceananan Age.

Anyway I certainly am no scholar, so these links are not exhaustive. I'm sure others may have more comprehensive links, and if so, I would like to see them as well :-)

 

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The Linear B spelling of the deity we call Zeus was DI-WO, DI-WE or DI-WI-JE-U, a mid point between the wider Indo-European Dyaus and the later Zeus, and his female counterpart was DI-WI-JA, or Diwia.  These appear on tablets from Knossos and Pylos.

At Pylos E-RA (our Hera) and MA-TA-RE TE-I-JA (Mater Theia) the Mother Goddess are mentioned, but independently, apart from one tablet where Zeus and Hera are together.

I think the key thing is not to go God Learnering the ancient Aegean.  There were numerous different cults struggling to find their place amongst the cities and country folk of different states in a time ill-recorded, followed by a time of turmoil and illiteracy, followed by good-ol' Homer.  The process through which Hera became the wife of Zeus is probably irretrievably lost (sob) to us.

For a website source I used a Dartmouth education site, but for preference go to 'Documents in Mycenaean Greek' by Michael Ventris and John Chadwick, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-1-107-50341-0, which I find indispensable!  It has recently been re-released, and in a reasonably priced paperback version. 

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On 10/12/2016 at 8:51 AM, Mankcam said:

In the early Mycenaean Age, the sky god Dyeus (who would become the Hellenic deity Zeus) wasn't a husband of the Moon-Earth goddess Hebe/Theria (the pre-Hellenic version of Zeus's wife, Hera). 

Dyaus Pitar probably became Jupiter among the Roman Gods, and Tiwaz which became the Scandinavian Tyr much later. The latter was identified with Mars by the Romans. 

Theria could also means the wild animals. I think she was identified with Artemis, but it probably depended on the place and time. Artemis of Ephesus blessed the crops. Perhaps there was a transition from a hunter-gather lifestyle to a farmer lifestyle, and the deities changed later than the ways of life.

The mythic sequence of Orlanth consists of different periods, including the Lightbringers' Quest, and in the end he was alone in the Underworld, because all the other Lightbringers were lost too. It is something an Orlanthi may heroquest into, but this can be extended to the whole clan in the Sacred Time, possibly emphasizing that particular aspect of the quest.

The wives of the Tarsh Exiles are Maran Gori, but I think it is strange because they do not have fertility. I think some goddess like Mralota or other might be more suitable to the needs of everyday life.

 

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Most women in Old Tarsh are initiates of Ernalda, not Maran Got. A significant minority are initiated to Maran Gor. But both are worshiped by nearly everyone.

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Some really useful answers and discussion folks, thanks.

Balazar is specifically where I'm thinking of at the moment - we're playing things out against a backdrop of the Orlanthi of Trilus beginning to organise themselves into a tribe. The Making of the Storm Tribe quest and the role of Ernalda are key points I've been thinking over.

Tarshite society is also something I've been giving thought to, I've been putting notes together about differences between fully Lunarised lowlanders and more traditional, often recalcitrant Orlanthi in the foothills of the Rockwoods.

@Jon Hunter's Back to Balazar is proving useful (thanks Jon!) and Tarsh in Flames, though obviously non-canon, has been a great source for the latter.

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3 hours ago, m0n0cular said:

more traditional, often recalcitrant Orlanthi in the foothills of the Rockwoods

You can also find some information on the tribes/clans of Imther nearest to Balazar in my thread here:

The easternmost clans are the most Orlanthi, as well as most inaccessible, but likely the clans that Balazarings (and Orlanthi) from Trilus might encounter.  Conversely, Orlanthi in Trilus may well be exiles from some of those clans.

3 hours ago, m0n0cular said:

the role of Ernalda

Given the fondness for pigs in the Balazaring citadels, Ernalda the Sow Mother may well be a prominent figure.

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Thanks @jajagappa, it makes a lot of sense for Orlanthi from Imther being in Trilus. That will nicely tip things from the bias towards Dragon Pass refugees presented in Griffin Mountain towards a more likely mix of origins given the location of Balazar.

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