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What happens when you're dead


David Scott

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10 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Is this thread not dead yet?

It's dying the death of a thousand (bad) jokes.  Apologies for being the first!

"It was dead ... but it got better!"

 

Edited by g33k
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On 1/25/2017 at 9:33 PM, Tindalos said:

Interestingly, going back to Cults of Prax, it says "Humakt worshippers are never Ressurected." With resurrected capitalized, unlike other uses of the word.

It's quite possible that this reference is specifically talking about the Resurrection spell, and not all forms of coming back from the dead (although being neither Stafford or Perrin, I can't be sure.)

Other resurrection spells are mentioned as existing, they're just not as easy or foolproof (such as the Eirithan Seal Spirit spell,) and it may be feasible that there would exist those which would work on Humakti.

And the resurrection spell is merely a condensed pre-packaged hero quest.  The point is that coming back from the dead is wrong for Humakti.  

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On ‎26‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 1:38 PM, Darius West said:

And the resurrection spell is merely a condensed pre-packaged hero quest.  The point is that coming back from the dead is wrong for Humakti.  

I rather think you miss Tindalos' point.  The Resurrection spell is a highly specific miracle related to a highly specific deity.  If the Stafford/Perrin capitalisation IS significant, then the point may simply have been that the cannot receive that blessing from Chalana Arroy due to a runic conflict.  If that runic conflict does not come into play due to other circumstances, then there may be another way.  For example, there is no implicit conflict between Death and Movement.

Cue Sean Bean the Larnsting - "One may simply walk out of the Underworld". 

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1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

I rather think you miss Tindalos' point.  The Resurrection spell is a highly specific miracle related to a highly specific deity.  If the Stafford/Perrin capitalisation IS significant, then the point may simply have been that the cannot receive that blessing from Chalana Arroy due to a runic conflict.  If that runic conflict does not come into play due to other circumstances, then there may be another way.  For example, there is no implicit conflict between Death and Movement.

Cue Sean Bean the Larnsting - "One may simply walk out of the Underworld". 

I totally disagree.  The point of the restriction is to stop people coming back from the dead.  The resurrection spell is a Chalana Arroy ritual that is in effect a minor hero quest into the underworld to retrieve a soul, and that is the same as coming back from being dead in the underworld.  I think you are going against the spirit of the intent of how Humakt is written up really heinously if you think they somehow get to come back from the dead just because they have been hero questing.  For a Humakti, dead is dead, and even if it is symbolic, they are obliged to honor the oath they took as initiates or lose their connection to their death god and have every sword they ever pick up break in their hand.   What applies to poor little initiates is doubly important to the higher-ups. Humakt is a deity of uncompromising oaths and codes, stop gaming the system to fit with your flawed perspective.

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On 1/26/2017 at 1:38 PM, Darius West said:

And the resurrection spell is merely a condensed pre-packaged hero quest.

I don't think it is.

51 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The resurrection spell is a Chalana Arroy ritual that is in effect a minor hero quest into the underworld to retrieve a soul, and that is the same as coming back from being dead in the underworld.

Not at all. The spirit of a dead person remains around the body for seven days, after which the spell doesn't work. The caster uses Chalana Arroy's power to reach into the spirit world and reunite their body and spirit (if on at least three positive hit points). At no point do they go to the underworld.

The RQ2 (1979) version in Cults of Prax is slightly ambiguous, with the phrase:

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If the soul of the departed wins the round, it returns again to the courts of silence. 

In RQ3 (1984) changed that to:

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If the caster fails, the soul is lost to death. 

 King of Sartar (1992) clarified it with:

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The Court of Silence
Here is what happens when you die:
Your soul separates from your body. For seven days the soul lingers near the body, drifting farther apart from it and developing spirit senses.

Storm Tribe (2001) muddied the waters again with:

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The devotee must then travel to the Underworld to recover the soul. A Sister of Mercy must reach the soul of the patient before it reaches Havan Vor and convince it to return to life. This is the most difficult part of the quest, for the dead naturally belong in the Underworld, and so resist a return to life. If the healer is victorious over the forces of death, she returns the soul of the patient to his body. 

But then defines Havan Vor as Landmark in the Storm Realm, not the Underworld.

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A terrible gash called the Doorway of Havan Vor runs through the stone of the Great Barrier. This is the Vale of Death, which leads to the Underworld. 

Sartar: Kingdom of heroes (2012 2ed) provides us with the best information on the underworld and the dead. In the Colymar campaign it provides us with routes to the underworld (including the Humakti one at six stones). It repeats the info from Storm tribe regarding Haran Vor and so I would consider it the latest info. It would seem that the soul lingering near the body includes the journey to Haran Vor, but passed that and you're gone and in the underworld. It would seem that Chalana Arroy has the power to reach out to the soul before it passes to the Underworld to resurrect individuals. @Jeff does this all seem correct?

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5 hours ago, Darius West said:

I totally disagree.  The point of the restriction is to stop people coming back from the dead.  The resurrection spell is a Chalana Arroy ritual that is in effect a minor hero quest into the underworld to retrieve a soul, and that is the same as coming back from being dead in the underworld.  I think you are going against the spirit of the intent of how Humakt is written up really heinously if you think they somehow get to come back from the dead just because they have been hero questing.  For a Humakti, dead is dead, and even if it is symbolic, they are obliged to honor the oath they took as initiates or lose their connection to their death god and have every sword they ever pick up break in their hand.   What applies to poor little initiates is doubly important to the higher-ups. Humakt is a deity of uncompromising oaths and codes, stop gaming the system to fit with your flawed perspective.

Oddly enough, disagreeing does not dictate the other person's opinion to be flawed.  Going with or against the intent of the write-up in CoP is something only Stafford or Perrin can define, not somebody pontificating some 35 years later. Humakt is a deity known across Genertela in a variety of ways, and I am inclined to believe a Carmanian Hum'akti could walk out of the main gate of Alkoth.  They are religious fanatics, which does NOT imply that they are moronic.

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The purpose of the restriction is to prevent anyone other than Humakt from being the master of Death. Chalana Arroy cannot yank Humakt out of the Underworld, even with all the powers of Life at her disposal (ie the Resurrection spell). But Humakt can enter and leave his domain as he wishes. Granted Humakt does not have a Resurrection spell, which means the Humakti in question needs to know and walk the Paths of the Dead - definitely involving a heroquest. Since heroquesting was simply not part of RQ2 and RQ3, it meant in practice that if a Humakti dies, there's no way other than Divine Intervention to Humakt for him to return.  

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4 hours ago, Jeff said:

The purpose of the restriction is to prevent anyone other than Humakt from being the master of Death. Chalana Arroy cannot yank Humakt out of the Underworld, even with all the powers of Life at her disposal (ie the Resurrection spell). But Humakt can enter and leave his domain as he wishes. Granted Humakt does not have a Resurrection spell, which means the Humakti in question needs to know and walk the Paths of the Dead - definitely involving a heroquest. Since heroquesting was simply not part of RQ2 and RQ3, it meant in practice that if a Humakti dies, there's no way other than Divine Intervention to Humakt for him to return.  

Thanks for the clarification.

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4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Since heroquesting was simply not part of RQ2 and RQ3, it meant in practice that if a Humakti dies, there's no way other than Divine Intervention to Humakt for him to return.  

No.  No Humakti would ever make such a Divine Intervention, and Humakt would never grant it.  For Humakti, dead is dead.  Humakt will intervene to get you out of trouble if you are still alive, but will not intervene after a character's death. Death is a sacred state for Humakti.  A dead Humakti might intervene to Humakt to help them fulfill an extant oath that they swore while alive or grant them a parting shot against their enemies, but they would never D.I. to come back from the dead.  Supreme dishonor. 

Also, do not leap to conclusions about people with RQ2 & RQ3 rules not conducting Hero Quests.  Everyone I knew back then who played RQ and had perhaps one Rune level character and had done a hero quest or two, even before publications on the issue like Questlines and Enclosure.  That was one of the reasons so many people found the HeroQuest system disappointing.  It was exactly like what we had already been doing, but with a worse game system.  HQ wasn't even as good as Pendragon Pass as outlined in 6 pages in TORM  #6.

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51 minutes ago, Darius West said:

No.  No Humakti would ever make such a Divine Intervention, and Humakt would never grant it.  For Humakti, dead is dead.  Humakt will intervene to get you out of trouble if you are still alive, but will not intervene after a character's death. Death is a sacred state for Humakti.  A dead Humakti might intervene to Humakt to help them fulfill an extant oath that they swore while alive or grant them a parting shot against their enemies, but they would never D.I. to come back from the dead.  Supreme dishonor. 

We always played that Humakti Divine Intervention was at the moment between Life and Death, preventing the Humakti from dying, not bringing back once dead. That means that you cannot use DI to bring back a Humakti who has just died, but can use your own DI to prevent the head-chopping move from actually chopping off your head.

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56 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 

Also, do not leap to conclusions about people with RQ2 & RQ3 rules not conducting Hero Quests.

No leaping taking place, Jeff just said that there were no rules for Heroquesting in those editions. You come across as busting for a fight sometimes Darius. It's tedious and makes for unpleasant reading. For me at any rate.

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12 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

No leaping taking place, Jeff just said that there were no rules for Heroquesting in those editions. You come across as busting for a fight sometimes Darius. It's tedious and makes for unpleasant reading. For me at any rate.

Not only for you.

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When addressing Games Day in London shortly after the release of Gods of Glorantha for RQ3, Greg gave some outline ideas/rules for Heroquesting.  They worked, but were very 'broad-stroke' in their approach.  

He also said that RQ3 was far superior to RQ2 as a simulation of Glorantha. Therefore I would hesitate before using an RQ2 product as a 'proof' for an argument.

Darius, consider that while it can be brave and noble to defend a position against unnumbered hordes, sometimes the horde may have reason on their side.  If you are failing to convince people, it may be your argument that is flawed, rather than their reasoning.

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3 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

When addressing Games Day in London shortly after the release of Gods of Glorantha for RQ3, Greg gave some outline ideas/rules for Heroquesting.  They worked, but were very 'broad-stroke' in their approach.  

He also said that RQ3 was far superior to RQ2 as a simulation of Glorantha. Therefore I would hesitate before using an RQ2 product as a 'proof' for an argument.

Chaosium always say that *Current Game* is better than *Old Game* as a simulation of Glorantha. So, RQ3 was a better simulation than RQ2, Hero Wars was better than RuneQuest and HeroQuest is better than Hero Wars. When RuneQuest comes out, that will be a better simulation than RQ2 or RQ3. I would expect that RuneQuest, HeroQuest and 13th Age Glorantha would be considered equally as good, especially as they have a lot of shared concepts.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. 

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18 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Chaosium always say that *Current Game* is better than *Old Game* as a simulation of Glorantha. So, RQ3 was a better simulation than RQ2, Hero Wars was better than RuneQuest and HeroQuest is better than Hero Wars. When RuneQuest comes out, that will be a better simulation than RQ2 or RQ3. I would expect that RuneQuest, HeroQuest and 13th Age Glorantha would be considered equally as good, especially as they have a lot of shared concepts.

Actually, I don't think that is entirely fair, due to the different approach undertaken with HW and HQ.  They simulate alternative visions to those of RQ.

I would always favour RQ for a gamist or simulationist campaign, whereas the narrativist form of HQ is quite distinctive.

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