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What happens when you're dead


David Scott

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16 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'm confused that you would apply a true / false label to what I wrote. It's true or false depending on your interpretation of Glorantha. YGWV. There are no absolutes here, I'm looking at the same texts you are, this is my interpretation and so it's an opinion. 

Sartar: KoH page 145

Her impetus was that she chose to act rather than succumb to the collapsing world around her.

If there are no absolutes, then why do 100% of Gloranthan cultures seem to think that everyone is "dead" if they set foot in the underworld.  That sounds pretty absolute to me.

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4 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So, given your background in this area you must have a deep understanding of how important it is within a journey into the underworld to keep one's connection to the world of the living as an anchor if you are trying to draw them back from death.

As shamanism is an experiential as opposed to intellectual practice, it's dependent on experience. I've had some experience with psychopomp work and that's not my experience. As a living person I have no problem with a living connection. Other's experience may differ of course.

9 minutes ago, Darius West said:

It is an idea which is central in the majority of shamanic cultures when dealing with the issue.

Central to anthropology maybe, but not always experience. My main experience of this is a ceremony similar to the Spirit Canoe of the North west coast Salish people. Working with shamanism fortunately has no real world connection with what people have written, just because it says so in a text doesn't mean it's true. Likewise experiences of shamanism and animism vary wildly, so I personally wouldn't want to say exactly how it is, as it isn't for everyone. Fortunately I've a degree in History degree that spread across Anthropology and the Neolithic, so I can quite easily understand where you are coming from, but for me there are no absolutes.

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17 minutes ago, Darius West said:

If there are no absolutes, then why do 100% of Gloranthan cultures seem to think that everyone is "dead" if they set foot in the underworld.  That sounds pretty absolute to me.

I don't think 100% of Gloranthan cultures believe this. I think it varies according to culture, cult and individual. Most peoples will have a "pop" idea as to what happens, but most will only find out the truth if they go there during a ceremony, HeroQuest or die. Only then will they actually know and even then most won't think about it in a subjective way. Most will be informed by the mythology and then have a personal experience. This is the way I believe Glorantha works.

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

If there are no absolutes, then why do 100% of Gloranthan cultures seem to think that everyone is "dead" if they set foot in the underworld.  That sounds pretty absolute to me.

Most people don't go to the Underworld. Very few people do, in fact. So, this is only really an issue for HeroQuestors.

Again, if you don't like it then don't use it.

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

And the trolls that the Lightbringers are apparently feeding Flesh Man to... alive or dead?  And if dead, then why do they need to eat?

They were alive, but then Yelm came, and killed them all. The few that were not killed had to flee to the surface world, or be Dead.

The Underworld is not Wonderhome any more. It is a sad, dreary place full of dead things. Dead trolls especially. Fortunately for the trolls that are alive in the middle world, they know how to escape death when it comes for them, because that's how they got to the middle world in the first place.

The Dead eat because they are hungry, just like the living... unfortunately, Death makes everything taste all ashy and smell like iron, and nothing you eat while dead will truly fill you up. You either have to eat constantly and be miserable, or starve and be miserable. That is why life, as painful and terrible as it is, is preferable to death.

Now eat this good food that uncle Og brought us, or I'll let auntie screams-and-howls possess you again, and she'll finish it for you.

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7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Perhaps a little odd that the Giants send their children into the underworld... to die... when the kindly God Learners were quite happy to help them die in the Middle World, yet that upsets the Giants for some unfathomable reason :)

The Elder Giants that send their children into the underworld are not the giants you might encounter walking around the Surface World. Like dragons (who they apparently fought in lost ages long before Time) humans tend to perceive them in terms of geography.

Given their lifespan and presence before Time, their method of birth (the cradles simply appear at the Boathouse) and their nature is entirely alien to that of the mortal races. Compared with these Giants, Gonn Orta is tiny. The Three Little Giant Mountains are the giants who float their babies down the river to the sea; the journey of the baby down the Zola Fel, and subsequently across the Homeward Ocean and down Magasta’s Pool, is now the giant equivalent of giving birth. Magasta's Pool leads down to the Primal Water. Down there, things are a little different: this is the Deep, the Silent, the Still which arose from Darkness and from which the first Earth in turn pushed upwards. It is part of the underworld, but not the Underworld. It laps the Lands of the Dead, 'below it', and is a distinct realm all of its own. Perhaps the life cycle of the Elder Giants follows the Elemental pattern, and they grow upwards to become mountains in the Mortal World. It is doubtful anyone knows, for the lifecycle of these beings appears longer than there has been Time in Glorantha.

When the Closing ended sea travel, the Waertagi dragonships also sought refuge below and sailed down Magasta’s Pool to wait upon the Black Ocean, from which they return in the Hero Wars. However, this is not a realm for ordinary humans; even Argrath and his companions were happy to leave the Cradle prior to its descent.

Edited by M Helsdon
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On 12/28/2016 at 9:13 AM, M Helsdon said:

The Elder Giants that send their children into the underworld are not the giants you might encounter walking around the Surface World. Like dragons (who they apparently fought in lost ages long before Time) humans tend to perceive them in terms of geography.

Given their lifespan and presence before Time, their method of birth (the cradles simply appear at the Boathouse) and their nature is entirely alien to that of the mortal races. Compared with these Giants, Gonn Orta is tiny. The Three Little Giant Mountains are the giants who float their babies down the river to the sea; the journey of the baby down the Zola Fel, and subsequently across the Homeward Ocean and down Magasta’s Pool, is now the giant equivalent of giving birth. Magasta's Pool leads down to the Primal Water. Down there, things are a little different: this is the Deep, the Silent, the Still which arose from Darkness and from which the first Earth in turn pushed upwards. It is part of the underworld, but not the Underworld. It laps the Lands of the Dead, 'below it', and is a distinct realm all of its own. Perhaps the life cycle of the Elder Giants follows the Elemental pattern, and they grow upwards to become mountains in the Mortal World. It is doubtful anyone knows, for the lifecycle of these beings appears longer than there has been Time in Glorantha.

When the Closing ended sea travel, the Waertagi dragonships also sought refuge below and sailed down Magasta’s Pool to wait upon the Black Ocean, from which they return in the Hero Wars. However, this is not a realm for ordinary humans; even Argrath and his companions were happy to leave the Cradle prior to its descent.

So, if you are beneath the underworld you aren't dead?  But surely you have to pass through the underworld to reach this place beneath the underworld where you suddenly aren't dead anymore?

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On 12/28/2016 at 3:45 AM, soltakss said:

Most people don't go to the Underworld.

I think that depends on the tradition they belong to, but some clarification on the point would be good.  Some would say that every dead person travels there on their way to be judged, hence the 7 day turnover for the resurrection spell, which works the same way regardless of tradition.

On 12/28/2016 at 3:45 AM, soltakss said:

 Very few people do, in fact. So, this is only really an issue for HeroQuestors.

Especially for Humakti hero questers.  

On 12/28/2016 at 3:45 AM, soltakss said:

Again, if you don't like it then don't use it.

I won't use it.  It is ridiculous.  What I resent is the notion that an idea so foolish has entered the canon and is now considered somehow incontestable as a result.  It is fun watching other people performing theological somersaults to justify it however. 

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If I may , I would make a simple comment on this discussion  as it seems to be apropas and an example of many previous and exisiting discussions on Glorantha.

While it may be "easy" or for some "fun" to be critical of the creative work of Glorantha by authors I am not sure how it contributes to the enjoyment of Glorantha as a gaming or literature world. I find myself literally shaking my head in uncomprehension of debates that poke at the creativity of authors about Glorantha....

Surely those that wish to engage in such arguments and negative assertions would contribute more if they were to at least attempt to make a creative contribution to the collective understanding and explorations of Glorantha?

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13 hours ago, Darius West said:

So, if you are beneath the underworld you aren't dead?  But surely you have to pass through the underworld to reach this place beneath the underworld where you suddenly aren't dead anymore?

No, because the Deep is under the earth (upper world) but not under the Underworld. You are aware that the cube of the Earth floats above the deepest Waters? There's an illustration in the Guide (page 10) which serves to show this. The Deepest Waters are above and lap upon the shores of the Underworlds. Contradictory? Intentionally so.

And, when you get beyond the Middle World, perceptions useful there aren't as useful beyond the confines of the Mortal World, so it is entirely feasible for the Primal Water to have a surface upon which cradles and dragonships can float - even though it is in the Waters.

Edited by M Helsdon
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16 hours ago, Darius West said:

So, if you are beneath the underworld you aren't dead?  But surely you have to pass through the underworld to reach this place beneath the underworld where you suddenly aren't dead anymore?

Again, as I said earlier, the Cradle finds itself travelling the river Styx, which divides the land of the living from the land of the dead.  It is in neither realm and yet both.  (Which, btw, is why Styx's brother Vivamort is so mythologically bound to utter destruction there.)

 

Cross that river, you'll be dead.  Go to the other side, you live.  As it journeys down that river, it is going to either end up with a live birth or a dead birth.  That will be decided upon its completion of the journey.

And in the case of the cradle from 1621, I like to think that either the world will be destroyed or reborn, such is the mythological ramifications of that particular journey.

Edited by Pentallion
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3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Again, as I said earlier, the Cradle finds itself travelling the river Styx, which divides the land of the living from the land of the dead.  It is in neither realm and yet both.  (Which, btw, is why Styx's brother Vivamort is so mythologically bound to utter destruction there.)

Cross that river, you'll be dead.  Go to the other side, you live.  As it journeys down that river, it is going to either end up with a live birth or a dead birth.  That will be decided upon its completion of the journey.

And in the case of the cradle from 1621, I like to think that either the world will be destroyed or reborn, such is the mythological ramifications of that particular journey.

Hang on... isn't the River Styx very much a feature of the underworld that you can find once you pass through the Gates of Dusk?  And aren't you automatically dead if you are in the underworld regardless of which side of the river you are on?  I regard this as yet another case of the "dead" in the underworld rule being broken.  I mean, it says that the Puzzle Canal links into the underworld and the Styx in the Big Rubble adventure book.

BTW I have also long harbored the suspicion that giants should be reported to social services for their neglect of their babies. :)

On a more serious note, what is your basis for thinking that about the 1621 cradle?  I mean, apart from upping the ante for that adventure?  It is an interesting idea.

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14 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

No, because the Deep is under the earth (upper world) but not under the Underworld. You are aware that the cube of the Earth floats above the deepest Waters? There's an illustration in the Guide (page 10) which serves to show this. The Deepest Waters are above and lap upon the shores of the Underworlds. Contradictory? Intentionally so.

And, when you get beyond the Middle World, perceptions useful there aren't as useful beyond the confines of the Mortal World, so it is entirely feasible for the Primal Water to have a surface upon which cradles and dragonships can float - even though it is in the Waters.

Yes, I am aware of those things, but the cradle will pass through the underworld to get to those deeper waters on the Magasta whirlpool.  I doubt that the Styx doesn't flow to help Magasta's whirlpool.  

Yes, there is an under dome that protects the underworld from the primal water, and whether it is a bubble or rock is up for grabs. What doesn't change is that the spiral of the whirlpool will pass through the underworld to get to the primal waters.  Ergo, everyone dies, regardless of whether they survive the journey.  Contradictory? Intentionally so.

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3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Yes, I am aware of those things, but the cradle will pass through the underworld to get to those deeper waters on the Magasta whirlpool.  I doubt that the Styx doesn't flow to help Magasta's whirlpool.  

No it doesn't. Magasta's Pool flows down to the Primal Water, the child of the River Styx, the Water of Darkness, which lies beneath it, but borders the Underworld. The Styx is the 'river' you have to cross to get to the Lands of the Dead.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

What doesn't change is that the spiral of the whirlpool will pass through the underworld to get to the primal waters. 

Except... it doesn't. Please see page 10 of the Guide.

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Just wait until you learn it is possible in Glorantha to be at two different places at the same time. Jar-eel can simultaneously be in Glamour, performing the Lunar New Year rites AND be in Boldhome disrupting Kallyr Starbrow's Lightbringers Quest. And she experiences only being in one place which is both.

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11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Just wait until you learn it is possible in Glorantha to be at two different places at the same time. Jar-eel can simultaneously be in Glamour, performing the Lunar New Year rites AND be in Boldhome disrupting Kallyr Starbrow's Lightbringers Quest. And she experiences only being in one place which is both.

I'm pretty sure that Campbell talks about bilocation being a sign of godhood in either Hero with 1000 faces or the Masks of God volumes. It's not just a Gloranthan theme. 

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On 12/30/2016 at 8:33 PM, M Helsdon said:

Except... it doesn't. Please see page 10 of the Guide.

Middle: The flat Middle World with the Earth
“lozenge” is surrounded by and floating atop Sramak’s
River. The northern continent ends with huge
glaciers, the southern continent with deserts of fire.
In between is Magasta’s Pool, a whirlpool that drains
into the Underworld.

Good reference.  Read it more closely next time.

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I have to agree with Martin's critique, and also would like to suggest that civility is something to be prized.

To suggest that there is a single 'absolute' truth of Glorantha is a rather modernist approach for a discussion where many of us are post-modernist in outlook.  Every individual and culture have their 'absolute truth', and each of those is relatively accurate, even - or perhaps especially - when they are mutually contradictory.  Even the Guide is only a guide. 

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11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

 

glorantha.JPG

Drawing on non-canon sources now? LOL.  And to show a map that demonstrates that apparently more than half of the underworld is not actually the land of death, and in fact you aren't dead just by going through Rausa's Dusk Gate, you are just in the land of darkness.  Why it makes you wonder whether crossing the Styx represents anything either.  Notice also how Magasta's Whirlpool is positioned right over the Styx, as though the Styx is a continuation of Magasta's Whirlpool?  That's because we know it is.

 

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Darius - given that I have the original sketch on which this was based, this map works fine as a schematic - which is all it is. But like all cosmological schematics it has its limits. But as far as I am concerned, it seems vitally important to you that we have a definition of "dead" that suggests that a hero that returns from the Underworld was somehow alive all the time ("hurrah!"). If that definition makes the cycle of Life and Death easier for you to grok, then go for it. But for me, that definition doesn't help and doesn't work (then again that could just be a result of my current writer's vantage point).

At the risk of continuing this pointless (at least for my purposes) thread, I'll try to explain to other readers:

The Underworld is the Place of Death and if you are there, you are among the dead and not living. That's why Uleria never went to the Underworld (and many cultures identify the blue planet that never enters the Underworld with her (the Theyalans identify it with Mastakos). If you are in the Underworld you are on the other side of mortality - ie., one of the dead. That's a definitional thing - like saying that if you are in the Sky Dome you are part of the sky, even if you are made out of flesh and bone. Or like saying the Red God is red.

Like most definitional arguments, it doesn't really say that much. The Otherworld (or mythology, or the Gods War, or whatever you want to think of the Great Other) embraces contradictions. Most gods died during the Great Darkness, although a very few (Yelmalio, Uleria, Dayzatar, etc.) did not. The respected dead in Ty Kora Tek's realm dance and feast, and enjoy the pleasures of life. And Death himself separates the Underworld from the mortal realm, and yet Death stalks the mortal realm as well. 

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19 hours ago, Darius West said:

Middle: The flat Middle World with the Earth
“lozenge” is surrounded by and floating atop Sramak’s
River. The northern continent ends with huge
glaciers, the southern continent with deserts of fire.
In between is Magasta’s Pool, a whirlpool that drains
into the Underworld.

Good reference.  Read it more closely next time.

 

Underworld is not Hell.

Sure, Magasta's Pool drains into the Underworld, then eventually merges with the Styx, but doesn't drain into Hell.

To be honest, I've lost track of all the discussions in this thread.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

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5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Drawing on non-canon sources now? LOL.  And to show a map that demonstrates that apparently more than half of the underworld is not actually the land of death, and in fact you aren't dead just by going through Rausa's Dusk Gate, you are just in the land of darkness.  Why it makes you wonder whether crossing the Styx represents anything either.  Notice also how Magasta's Whirlpool is positioned right over the Styx, as though the Styx is a continuation of Magasta's Whirlpool?  That's because we know it is.

 

Crossing the Styx means you are in Hell. Being in hell means you are dead.

Entering the Underworld does not mean you are dead, as you have not entered Hell.

The Styx came a long while before Magasta's Pool, in fact the Styx predates all water deities as they all descend from the Styx. Don't forget that the Styx is a river, a lake, a sea and covers Hell, so it is big, much bigger than the oceans of Glorantha.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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