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M Helsdon

Swords of Central Genertela

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Ok I've got some interesting questions here? Some I think i have the answer too but her we go anyway.

  • Did curved sword come to Peloria with the Lunars or were they common before ?
  • Is weapon choice and design in primarily Glorantha theological, practical or cultural ?
  • has weapon usage and design migrated through Glorantha like in the real world ?
  • Is there room for significant local deviation and variation for martial norms of a people group? 
  • Is the concept of the technological development of weapons truly Gloranthan?
  • Why do the race most associated with the stasis rune have the most advanced technology?

 

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32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Ok I've got some interesting questions here? Some I think i have the answer too but her we go anyway.

  • Did curved sword come to Peloria with the Lunars or were they common before ?

 

My guesses...

Probably not. There's circumstantial evidence of Dara Happans using curved swords prior to the ascension of the Red Goddess (illustration in the Guide, page 306 - it seems unlikely that a society as conservative as the Dara Happans would adopt a Lunar fashion).

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:
  • Is weapon choice and design in primarily Glorantha theological, practical or cultural ?

Based on available evidence, a mixture of the three.

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:
  • has weapon usage and design migrated through Glorantha like in the real world ?

Given that the kopis form is of Pentan origin and now so widely adopted by the Lunar Empire to become the Lunar sword, the migration of designs does happen.

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:
  • Is there room for significant local deviation and variation for martial norms of a people group? 

Based on canonical illustrations: yes. This is why I attempted to portray a range of variants. Also, armor and weapons are made by many dispersed smiths working to their own templates. Even in those cultures supporting organized regiments, there is considerable variation in design, for there are no exact patterns. In those where war gear is made by clan smiths there will be an even greater variation. In pre-industrial cultures there's rarely a uniform design.

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:
  • Is the concept of the technological development of weapons truly Gloranthan?

 

There's certainly a development of styles, but little apparent technological innovation, save by the introduction of new techniques.

32 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:
  • Why do the race most associated with the stasis rune have the most advanced technology?

I presented your question to Isidilian: Changes in Mostali weapons are due to the ongoing repairs to the World Machine as it gradually approaches optimum operation. Mostal was the Maker of all things.

Edited by M Helsdon
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1 hour ago, Jon Hunter said:
  • Why do the race most associated with the stasis rune have the most advanced technology?

I dunno, I don't think the Teshnans are that advan-

 

Oh wait, you're talking about the Mostali, aren't you.

To quote a dwarf in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes: "Our magic is the magic of Making. We take the materials of the earth and forge them into the parts we need. Others call this alchemy, and classify it as wizardry. These categories do not occur in the documentation left to us by Mostal. This magic allows us to make gunpowder, which makes our flintlocks and cannons go “bang!”"

Don't think of it as technology, t''s a form of magic which just looks like technology when approached from a single direction.

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 Thanks for the drawings and information.

For axes I feel Pelorian/ Lunar  axes should have a crescent( crescent Moon)  shaped blade similar to a Bardiche , while Orlanthi axes  would have a Square earth rune shape blade

As far as swords in metal poor area, the Dragon Newts use swords that look like the Aztec macuahuilt and I can see the Praxian tribes and poorer  warriors using similar weapons , although they would be made out of wood and obsidian, not dragon bone.

 

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5 hours ago, TRose said:

As far as swords in metal poor area, the Dragon Newts use swords that look like the Aztec macuahuilt and I can see the Praxian tribes and poorer  warriors using similar weapons , although they would be made out of wood and obsidian, not dragon bone.

Very little wood in Prax.

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11 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Don't think of it as technology, t''s a form of magic which just looks like technology when approached from a single direction.

As the famous Lhankor Mhy sage Artho See Clerk one said, "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology".

 

Edited by Steve
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8 minutes ago, Steve said:

As the famous Lankhor Mhy sage Artho See Clerk one said, "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology".

Do Gloranthan vocabularies even have a word for technology?

 

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3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Do Gloranthan vocabularies even have a word for technology?

 

Its a move away from en excellent post ... so if we go to far off this one lets start a new thread.

But I think its one of real world given concepts which is very alien to most Gloranthan cultures. The myths of  of EWF and God Learnism would have created a resistance to progress in very many cultures. New is not better, new is dangerous, wrong and risky.

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7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:




Very little wood in Prax.






Dragonewts live primarily in Dragon Pass, not Prax, and there are forests nearby.  Gaining access to that wood, though, is another matter entirely.




(ETA:  Not sure why, but the forum software seems to be padding quotes with several blank, undeletable lines.  And edits.  And, every time I go back to re-edit, the return I've inserted between the first and second sentences here keeps getting stripped.)


Edited by Yelm's Light

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4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Do Gloranthan vocabularies even have a word for technology?

Yes, it's "sorcery" or Magiste (techno- : art, Mastery rune M; -logy : study, Truth rune Y so MY like in L... MHY)
-Mostali and Zzabur magic is based on studying, understanding and using the laws of universe.
-Any kind of Technology is based studying, understanding and using the laws of universe. (same thing)

Swords and weapons could be traditional ones (stasis rune/traditional aspect) or new ones made to fit a new roles (Movement rune /evolution aspect). The most typical fight in this aspect was the "mass-produced magical sword" in the II Age : They was made by a new sorcery/technology (Evolution) but all in them oppose traditions ( Like Jon Hunter clealy said ).

Technology help people to create a needed tools/weapons when it does not exist or nobody could hep you but Central Genertela believe in Gods and spirits who can answer them if they need a weapon. If nor gods or spirit can, a hero must made the appropriate quest to find a solution. No technology needed unless it's a Lankhor Mhy Quester....

18 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:
  • Is the concept of the technological development of weapons truly Gloranthan?
  • Why do the race most associated with the stasis rune have the most advanced technology?


Most of Cultures linked to stasis rune (Mostali, Malkioni) are a bit rigid and slow in their evolution, thus helping them keeping their knowledge. Central Genertela are more linked to the movement rune aspect, helping them changing faster but change is not always for a better state, their evolution can do more yo-yo; Like in regression after Dragon Kill or the White Period of the IV age). I think that they (malkioni, Mostali)  don't have the most advanced, it's just others loose their knowledge (thanks to Gremlins, blue moonies MIB squads and Dragons !!!).

In terms of Magic, swords in central Genertela are mainly a traditional weapon of a God (rediscovered or found) or a new weapon of a Hero. Technology are welcomed with rise of any empire but are rejected and blamed as soon as the empire start to fall (like what happen in ours Middles Ages).

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2 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Dragonewts live primarily in Dragon Pass, not Prax, and there are forests nearby.  Gaining access to that wood, though, is another matter entirely.

I was referring to:

16 hours ago, TRose said:

I can see the Praxian tribes and poorer  warriors using similar weapons , although they would be made out of wood and obsidian, not dragon bone.

 

Edited by M Helsdon

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6 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

 

 

 

 


Dragonewts live primarily in Dragon Pass, not Prax, and there are forests nearby.  Gaining access to that wood, though, is another matter entirely.

 

 

 

 

 

 


(ETA:  Not sure why, but the forum software seems to be padding quotes with several blank, undeletable lines.  And edits.  And, every time I go back to re-edit, the return I've inserted between the first and second sentences here keeps getting stripped.)

 

 

 The Dragonewt  Klanth tend to be made out of Dragon bone not wood. But I can see Nearby Orlanthi in Dragon Pass and elves making inferior copies out of wood and obsidian.

 And while wood may not be plentiful in Prax , its more common then metal. Wood can be found in the stinking forest, Rockwood and Stormreach mountain, the Poison coast and the river of cradles and Oasis.

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16 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Its a move away from en excellent post ... so if we go to far off this one lets start a new thread.

But I think its one of real world given concepts which is very alien to most Gloranthan cultures. The myths of  of EWF and God Learnism would have created a resistance to progress in very many cultures. New is not better, new is dangerous, wrong and risky.

Sounds good.  Lets start a new thread.

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Just now, David Scott said:

I look forward to Swords of Central Genertela Part II.

Excellent work, unfortunate end. 

Unfortunately, David, I won't be creating another thread on the subject here. If I create any more I'll put them on the other site.

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2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Unfortunately, David, I won't be creating another thread on the subject here. If I create any more I'll put them on the other site.

That's a real shame, Martin. I do hope that you'll reconsider. I always enjoy your postings, and your illustrations are excellent.

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I agree, I've really been enjoying seeing the illustrations here, and it will be a shame to see them go.

 

Unless of course this is signalling the completion of your magnum opus, which would be very good news indeed.

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21 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Unfortunately, David, I won't be creating another thread on the subject here. If I create any more I'll put them on the other site.

:_(

???

Edited by g33k

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A pair of Humakti show swords. The heroes or demigods depicted are unidentified.

[Inspired by the William Church illustration in Cults of Prax.]

 

Edited by M Helsdon
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Axes of Central Genertela

These designs are illustrative but not definitive examples. Differences in size, weight and detailed design vary according to the requirements of the customer and the skills and patterns of individual smiths.

A: Double-bladed axes typical of Esrolia and the Axe Orlanthi. The one to the left is a ceremonial axe carried in procession by the Guardians of a temple of Esrola.

B: Tarshite axes; the two to the left are cheap and basic axes used by Tarsh Exiles whilst the one to the right is of finer quality and decorated with a lion or an alynx.

C: A variety of single-headed axes, varying in quality from left to right.

D: Foreign designs. From left to right: possibly Fronelan; two Carmanian sagaris; a Lunar sagaris.

Note: Mounted warriors may employ weapons similar to C and D, but with longer hafts.


[For those interested: these are derived, in part, from Bronze Age Minoan, Anatolian, Near East and Iron Age Persian and Indian designs.]

 

 

Edited by M Helsdon
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On 1/17/2017 at 11:30 PM, M Helsdon said:

Axes of Central Genertela

These designs are illustrative but not definitive examples. Differences in size, weight and detailed design vary according to the requirements of the customer and the skills and patterns of individual smiths.

A: Double-bladed axes typical of Esrolia and the Axe Orlanthi. The one to the left is a ceremonial axe carried in procession by the Guardians of a temple of Esrola.

B: Tarshite axes; the two to the left are cheap and basic axes used by Tarsh Exiles whilst the one to the right is of finer quality and decorated with a lion or an alynx.

C: A variety of single-headed axes, varying in quality from left to right.

D: Foreign designs. From left to right: possibly Fronelan; two Carmanian sagaris; a Lunar sagaris.

Note: Mounted warriors may employ weapons similar to C and D, but with longer hafts.


[For those interested: these are derived, in part, from Bronze Age Minoan, Anatolian, Near East and Iron Age Persian and Indian designs.]

 

axes small lettered.PNG

Remember to add the dagger-axe of the High Llama riders - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger-axe!

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3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Remember to add the dagger-axe of the High Llama riders - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger-axe!

I could but there's limited space - and with so many Bronze Age designs I elected to illustrate only a small subset. I also neglected to illustrate any duck-billed axe heads.

Will deliberate adding those designs.

Edited by M Helsdon

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