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M Helsdon

Swords of Central Genertela

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There was mention of special sered breeds from Darjiin, used by a cavalry unit in that article on horses that was deconstructed later on.

Otherwise, Darjiin is a bit contradictory - hilltop forests for a swamp-dwelling people? It does suggest some specialization to defend good positions. With Shadzoring Alkoth hating them, probably a survival trait.

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11 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

May be relevant that Palangio Iron-Vrok was from Rinliddi. Perhaps something could be extrapolated? He certainly was a militant fellow and a general, and his way of doing warfare might have influenced his own people (or been influenced by them)...

Yes, I found and used that source. Joining up the information on the Battle of Night and Day and other scattered material meant I was able to create about half a page about the Rinliddi military culture.

11 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Is it possible that the Darjiini/Manimati are mostly demilitarized? They are the targets of the Alkothi We Hate Darjiini Usurpers Wars (in a form that vaguely resembles the Spartan-Helot relationship), and have supposedly been unable to claim any kind of independence since the Dara Happans stole the Broche of Manimat.

Several regiments of the Lunar Army are recruited from those areas/traditions: most are best described as peltasts, including the ferocious Doblian Dogeaters. In part, have extrapolated from those regiments and the apparent lifestyle of the various peoples: many seem to be hunters.

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18 hours ago, Joerg said:

There was mention of special sered breeds from Darjiin, used by a cavalry unit in that article on horses that was deconstructed later on.

Otherwise, Darjiin is a bit contradictory - hilltop forests for a swamp-dwelling people? It does suggest some specialization to defend good positions. With Shadzoring Alkoth hating them, probably a survival trait.

Darjiin is divided between people of the marshes (who appear to fight as peltasts/skirmishers - but if attacked by the Alkothi they probably retreat into their swamps) and uplanders who wear scale corselets and helmets - but I can determine little more about them - probably fight as hoplites.

I've seen the article, and other material about horse breeds, and have assumed there are still varieties.

Edited by M Helsdon

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A work in progress (replacing older picture of Pentan horse-archer).

Stage 1: pen and ink.
Stage 2: digitally colour rider and make a few changes.
Stage 3: basic shading of horse.
Stage 4: tomorrow hopefully finish...

wip.png

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And pretty much done (a few minor tweaks to do). The horse is intended to be a Seredae (thus the stripes on the rump) though I also used Przewalski's horse as a reference (though not for coloration).

Comparison of new and old version. Unlike many, this one had to be redrawn from scratch.

One more to redraw (though it is actually has a foot and cavalry figure... will probably draw them separately, and merge).

wip.png

comparison33.png

Edited by M Helsdon
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Preparing for the next sketch,  I also played around with a map of military traditions, and share the resulting sketch below. This is very rough and isn't in my fan book - it does not attempt to reflect political boundaries... 

The Rinliddi tradition is submerged by Pentan/Dara Happan/Lunar and I am uncertain just how widely disseminated the Lunar military tradition is - should probably included it around every Temple of the Reaching Moon....

The Orlanthi 'Barbarian Belt' is everywhere! However, population densities are relatively low in most places.

 

map military traditions2.png

Edited by M Helsdon

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2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The Rinliddi tradition is submerged by Pentan/Dara Happan/Lunar and I am uncertain just how wide the Lunar military tradition is.

Since Rinliddi/First Blessed is the origin/heart of the Lunar Empire, I'd expect that Lunar military tradition arose out of Rinliddi practices (which may be one reason why it's not overly detailed). DH practices, probably as developed by Yelmgatha, would be the second source.  The third core source for Lunar military should be the Conquering Daughter and what she developed in Sylila/Jillaro (likely combining earlier Lunar with that of Orlanthi). Part of the Lunar military tradition would seem to be the ability to flexibly bring together a number of these diverse practices into a homogenous grouping as seen in the Heartland Corps, IMperial Bodyguards, Cavalry Corps, and Lunar Provincial Army.  I'd suggest Lunar military tradition minimally includes everything except Carmania.

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23 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Since Rinliddi/First Blessed is the origin/heart of the Lunar Empire, I'd expect that Lunar military tradition arose out of Rinliddi practices (which may be one reason why it's not overly detailed).

True: there's one canonical Lunar regiment which mixes Lunar and Rinliddi traditions. It is one of the things that provided an insight into what the Rinliddi tradition is.

I suspect that the Dara Happans and Carmanians, both of whom subjugated Rinliddi and surrounds, are the major influences on Lunar infantry and cavalry.

23 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The third core source for Lunar military should be the Conquering Daughter and what she developed in Sylila/Jillaro (likely combining earlier Lunar with that of Orlanthi). Part of the Lunar military tradition would seem to be the ability to flexibly bring together a number of these diverse practices into a homogenous grouping as seen in the Heartland Corps, IMperial Bodyguards, Cavalry Corps, and Lunar Provincial Army. 

Yes, that's on the map, though locations have slipped a bit. There are a couple of places where Orlanthi orange, Dara Happan yellow and Lunar red 'merge'. On this scale and using these primitive graphics it isn't easy to render these combinations.

The gold rings for Sun Dome temples are, of course, out of scale.

By Lunar military traditions I mean the Lunar regiments; the Lunar Army incorporates a large number of regiments, many of which are very much older than the empire and only a few of those incorporate any significant Lunar elements. 

Edited by M Helsdon

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1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

 

The Orlanthi 'Barbarian Belt' is everywhere! However, population densities are relatively low in most places.

 

map military traditions2.png

It's even more places than the above! You left out the Entruli (Solathi, Ditali etc) of North and Central Maniria.

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13 minutes ago, RHW said:

It's even more places than the above! You left out the Entruli (Solathi, Ditali etc) of North and Central Maniria.

I know. Was primarily trying to get my head around the various traditions in Peloria and how they intermingle. The answer seems to be: a very great deal.

Have been able to uncover pages of material about the traditions of the Carmanians, Pelandans, Dara Happans, and Lunars but relatively little on the Rinliddi (but then just everyone has invaded, ruled them) and even less about Arir and the Dansenites, or the Darjiini (though have recently realised who and what the Manimati are). Whilst have been able to detail the Orlanthi in depth, also have the feeling that they vary a very great deal more than often seems apparent.

[Also missed out other Western instances such as Muse Roost and in the Holy Country.]

Edited by M Helsdon
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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Since Rinliddi/First Blessed is the origin/heart of the Lunar Empire, I'd expect that Lunar military tradition arose out of Rinliddi practices (which may be one reason why it's not overly detailed).

The dominant military tradition at the founding of the Lunar Empire was the Carmanian (Bull Shah) tradition. Yanafal was a graduate of that tradition when he created the young empire's military forces, integrating all the new allies and conquests much the same way the Bull Shah emperors had. The Carmanians built on the work of Dara Happan overseers and bureaucrats managing the upkeep and fielding of the traditional units, of course.

What was pretty new were the mobs of Lunar zealots that volunteered for military duty, and who got equipped with Carmanian heavy infantry armor and captured war horses - the Lunar Dragoons.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

DH practices, probably as developed by Yelmgatha, would be the second source. 

Do you think that Yelmgatha made lasting changes to the Dara Happan ways of mustering and providing for their military, or that he introduced new doctrines for battlefields?

IMO the last significant alterations to Dara Happan doctrine were Kastokus' aggressive use of cavalry against the Pentans and the Elevens of Elmexdros (IIRC).

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The third core source for Lunar military should be the Conquering Daughter and what she developed in Sylila/Jillaro (likely combining earlier Lunar with that of Orlanthi).

Inheriting from Sairdite military traditions that were proven in the fights against the EWF and the other two Pelorian powers prior to the Dragonkill, I would expect.

In all of these cases, inclusion of Lunar magics to the doctrine would have been the major new thing. I don't know whether Lunar magical organisation like having one man in seven to train as a support magician in addition to qualification as a man of the line has permeated the more traditional units like the Stonewall Phalanxes. The assault on the Cradle suggests that at least those troops stationed in Pavis were trained to do so.

Let's not forget the impact Phargentes had. His military management of the provinces created a Tarshite school of soldiery which produced both the Fazzurites and the Phargantites. Fazzur apparently favoured an approach that was exemplified by Arim's great-grandson Yarandros and the Dara Happan Kastok, using highly maneuverable units (the Cavalry Corps and his household forces of Tarshite cavalry which are absent from the Dragon Pass boardgame), the Phargantites possibly using a more systematic (but far less inspired) grinder strategy. Phargentes apparently excelled at both.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Part of the Lunar military tradition would seem to be the ability to flexibly bring together a number of these diverse practices into a homogenous grouping as seen in the Heartland Corps, IMperial Bodyguards, Cavalry Corps, and Lunar Provincial Army.  I'd suggest Lunar military tradition minimally includes everything except Carmania.

At least Yanafal had a Carmanian military background. While Irrippi nowadays is toted as a Buserian scholar rather than a Carmanian Lhankor Mhyte, he would have been trained as a part of the Bull Shah bureaucracy for wherever he hailed from. At the time the Red Goddess was revealed, Carmania was the best guess for Orlanthi influences on Dara Happa. They had conquered not just Dara Happa but also Saird, and pacified the hill tribes south of that without bothering to establish permanent control over these comparatively thinly settled nests of unrest, just as had been the policy for dealing with Brolia for centuries. (But then Brolia would hardly have sponsored sages like Irrippi.)

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9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The dominant military tradition at the founding of the Lunar Empire was the Carmanian (Bull Shah) tradition. Yanafal was a graduate of that tradition when he created the young empire's military forces, integrating all the new allies and conquests much the same way the Bull Shah emperors had. The Carmanians built on the work of Dara Happan overseers and bureaucrats managing the upkeep and fielding of the traditional units, of course.

The initial Lunar military seems to have evolved from the Rinliddi synthesis of native, Dara Happan, and Carmanian (including the Pelandan hoplites).

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What was pretty new were the mobs of Lunar zealots that volunteered for military duty, and who got equipped with Carmanian heavy infantry armor and captured war horses - the Lunar Dragoons.

The Blue and Red Dragoons were founded in the Second Wane by Hwarin Dalthippa for the Daughter’s Road Campaign; the Standfast regiment was founded by Hon-eel the Artess at the beginning of the Fifth Wane. [This information derived from sources that were canonical when written, but may have been subsequently updated or dismissed.]

Sadly there's no information on other dragoon regiments (though they may exist) founded at any other time.

Edited by M Helsdon

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1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

The Blue and Red Dragoons were founded in the Second Wane by Hwarin Dalthippa for the Daughter’s Road Campaign; the Standfast regiment was founded by Hon-eel the Artess at the beginning of the Fifth Wane. [This information derived from sources that were canonical when written, but may have been subsequently updated or dismissed.]

Sadly there's no information on other dragoon regiments (though they may exist) founds at any other time.

I realize that Chris Gidlow's Tarsh War mini-freeform is not a canonical source (and probably not that widely spread).

Chris would have fairly had good access to Greg's Lunar notes and work in process via Nick Brooke, but both were (and possibly still are) in the slightly ironical Lunar Red Army camp that didn't gain that much traction with Greg.

I take the info on the Red Dragoons from that game as pretty accurate, but it is entirely possible that a newer, more mythical origin has been canonized since. Basically in that model, they started out as mounted hoplite-equipped infantry, from the spoils of the First Battle of Chaos, and learned some heavy cavalry tactics on the side as they became a revolutionary elite corps.

After the Carmanians had been subdued, it is quite possible that these upstart elite zealot nobodies had become a liability in or near Glamour, which would have detaching them to the Conquering Daughter a win-win situation. The division by color may very well have been Hwarin's innovation.

But if you have clear evidence that something like this didn't happen, please let me know.

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6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I realize that Chris Gidlow's Tarsh War mini-freeform is not a canonical source (and probably not that widely spread).Chris would have fairly had good access to Greg's Lunar notes and work in process via Nick Brooke, but both were (and possibly still are) in the slightly ironical Lunar Red Army camp that didn't gain that much traction with Greg.

Have read Tarsh War with interest, and found it a very good piece of work, but also that it conflicted with other sources.

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I take the info on the Red Dragoons from that game as pretty accurate, but it is entirely possible that a newer, more mythical origin has been canonized since. Basically in that model, they started out as mounted hoplite-equipped infantry, from the spoils of the First Battle of Chaos, and learned some heavy cavalry tactics on the side as they became a revolutionary elite corps.

As is said by Greg in a note in Tarsh War, some of the suppositions weren't in line with material he was working on for a Gloranthan skirmish game.

The dragoons are basically mounted infantry, not very good as heavy cavalry.

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But if you have clear evidence that something like this didn't happen, please let me know.

I do have sources for the history of the dragoons, but, as always, canon shifts with Time, and the sources are often fairly slim. There are what seem to be major regiments for whom there is very little background material, and some obscure ones with considerably more.

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Latest - partial, as this one will consist of two figures. Safer to draw separately and then merge....

comparison34.png

Edited by M Helsdon
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Work in Progress:

Pen and ink; digital modifications and colouring of rider; basic shading of horse.

Hopefully finish tomorrow... Need to alter horse's front left leg...

[This is one of two sketches have had to modify because of RQ:G...]

wip2.png

Edited by M Helsdon
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Latest - pretty much complete. Perhaps a few changes to make to the shading.

Eeek! This is rework file 35, so have redrawn 36 sketches...

Now reengaging in proofreading - again. All my reviewers ran away meeping and mewing.

Armies & Enemies of Dragon Pass:
366 pages
239,166 words
63 sketches, 2 maps, 10+ diagrams, many smaller illustrations...

Reading through document - now at page 160...

comparison35.png

Edited by M Helsdon
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Now about half way, proofreading, finding a few typos, duplications and adding a few bits.

Not very happy with one chapter, but can't see how to improve it.

Meanwhile... Here's a copy of the trials to merge the dragoons. Would have preferred the bottom right, but it took up too much space.

variants of dragoons.png

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Nr.1 (or 6) seems like the best, composition-wise, but nr.7 is probably the most informative, without separating them completely.

I just realized that I don't know if you were looking for feedback, but here it apparently is. :P

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7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Nr.1 (or 6) seems like the best, composition-wise, but nr.7 is probably the most informative, without separating them completely.

I just realized that I don't know if you were looking for feedback, but here it apparently is. :P

Thank you - but I went for bottom row, second from right. Wanted to find a combination that displayed as much as possible. Another constraint was allowing text to wrap around image; in my layout this is on an even page and there's a text box in the right hand column.

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3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Thank you - but I went for bottom row, second from right. Wanted to find a combination that displayed as much as possible. Another constraint was allowing text to wrap around image; in my layout this is on an even page and there's a text box in the right hand column.

Hah, that was the one I designated as nr.7, so it's all good. :P

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On 5/2/2019 at 11:51 AM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Hah, that was the one I designated as nr.7, so it's all good. :P

Ah.

Now two thirds through proofreading. One problem is that whilst some of it involves detecting duplications and removing (most of) them, am also finding places where I can add more stuff: realised I had a reference to Granite (not to be confused with Granite Man I believe) but no real explanation. Then realised someone had shared an old draft document with some information about Granite... Also accidentally found the Chaosium RQ writing guidelines, so have implemented those, and then downloaded and installed the Rune font. Only about twenty Runes in the book, but it improved on using other symbols...

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New drawing.

Darjiini traditional hoplite (based on very slim canonical material so might be non-canonical).

This was supposed to fill a gap in the document, but such are the vagaries of Word, the chapter still needs another picture...

Darjiini hoplite small.png

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