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M Helsdon

Swords of Central Genertela

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3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

And another. As it doesn't look right in miniature, will include the 'full sized' version. This was drawn using slightly different techniques...

Almost feel like he should have some swirl or column of air/wind raising him up in his meditative posture.

But enjoying this and all the other figures! 

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6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Almost feel like he should have some swirl or column of air/wind raising him up in his meditative posture.

Storm meditation should really be in spiral motion rather than in stasis. Remember the descriptions of Storm flight (ever moving) vs. Fire flight (vertical, static)?

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But enjoying this and all the other figures! 

Enjoying them, too, but with occasional differences of opinion.

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18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Almost feel like he should have some swirl or column of air/wind raising him up in his meditative posture.

Attempted various different versions, but they didn't work. Similarly with the lightning. Jagged lines looked silly, so eventually I tried shading the area and then using an eraser to create the lightning display.

18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But enjoying this and all the other figures! 

Thank you.

To do list:

Chapter

Number of sketches

Additional sketches

required

Introduction

0

0

Fundamentals of Warfare

0

6-8

Arms and Armor

10

0

Regional Warfare

18

1-2

The Battlefield

15

1-2

Transport and Mobility

0

1-2

Fortifications and Siege Warfare

0

1-2

Arcane Warfare  

3

0

Gods of War

0

0

Armies of Central Genertela

0

0-2

Hero Wars Army Lists

39 miniatures

 

Appendices

0

0

Edited by M Helsdon
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Tomorrow I should finish the full-sized version of this, and possibly complete another. Then... onto a couple of Praxians, which I've been putting off because many of the mounts are so large.

After that, I start to hit a few problems regarding canonical descriptions of fairly obscure regiments, like the Blessed Daughters and the Green Bows, for example.

 

 

Edited by M Helsdon
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6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Latest (reins, harness, horse decoration not complete).

thirty smaller.png

For some reason, the shoulder and elbow don't seem right for the Parthian shot. The right elbow should be higher, and the left arm should be angled up slightly. Judging from that position, the archer's target is maybe twenty meters away.

The static horse would need a more dynamic posture, too. It is quite large compared to the rider, too, if you are going for an ancient world or older feeling.

For the relative size of the horses, this mosaic might be the best guide:

1280px-Battle_of_Issus_mosaic_-_Museo_Ar

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On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 4:21 AM, Joerg said:

For the relative size of the horses, this mosaic might be the best guide:

Whilst you are correct that most ancient European horses were little larger than ponies (and some were ponies), there were larger horses, such as the Ferghana horses which measured around 15.3 hands, the Nisean which measured 15-16 hands, and given that the ancestor of the steepe horse, the Przewalski averages 12-14 hands – the modern Mongolian horse is still the same size, not all ancient horses were small. The modern cut-off point between a pony and a horse is around 14.3, but that’s in part that some examples of some modern breeds can reach 18 hands or more. The image you provide is not an accurate source for any horses in the Near East, as the artist would have portrayed the horses they were familiar with in the Mediterranean region. It is obviously inaccurate, because Darius’ chariot would have been pulled by at least a pair of Nisean horses, not small horses.

Based on horse burials the average Roman military horse was around 13.2 hands.

If you are interested in the history of the horse, there are a number of excellent books on the topic.

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 4:21 AM, Joerg said:

For some reason, the shoulder and elbow don't seem right for the Parthian shot. The right elbow should be higher, and the left arm should be angled up slightly. Judging from that position, the archer's target is maybe twenty meters away.

The archer is in a hunched position, reducing his apparent height, and you may have been mislead by the scale shoulder-flaps. This may also have misled you as to the size of the horse. Note that his legs are folded up. It isn't a large horse.

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 4:21 AM, Joerg said:

The static horse would need a more dynamic posture, too. It is quite large compared to the rider, too, if you are going for an ancient world or older feeling.

Actually, I'm basing it on some ancient horse breeds... The intent of these sketches is to illustrate equipment...

 

 

Edited by M Helsdon
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4 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:
16 hours ago, Joerg said:

For some reason, the shoulder and elbow don't seem right for the Parthian shot. The right elbow should be higher, and the left arm should be angled up slightly. Judging from that position, the archer's target is maybe twenty meters away.

The archer is in a hunched position, reducing his apparent height, and you may have been mislead by the scale shoulder-flaps. This may also have misled you as to the size of the horse. Note that his legs are folded up. It isn't a large horse.

That posture doesn't really come across, but there is no way he is hunching forward at an angle that would lead to the arm positions supporting the force required to draw such a bow at that length.

The elbow still is way lower than I have seen on other (contemporary) images of horse archers from horse archer cultures, or by re-enactors. Seeing that posture and trying to recreate it causes me to feel stress in my shoulders, and that's already without a heavy bow to draw. The upper right arm should go up, not down, when drawing the string, even when anchoring somewhere in the region of your collarbones rather than in your face. Human anatomy is one thing that is no different between Gloranthans and people from our world.

 

The horses may have been inaccurate for the Persian king's chariot, but that's rather late in the Iron Age, not Bronze Age.

But regardless of Terran Near East horses of the late Iron Age, we know that the Sered horse breed of Glorantha is about Iceland pony sized, and the Galana hillman breed is even somewhat smaller - probably about the size depicted in the Darius mosaic. Pelorian horses equivalent to the Niseans would be Carmanian Chargers, something reserved for shock troops, not horse archers. Unless your horse archer is a Carmanian style cataphract also armed with a horse bow (worn on the back while still charging in with a lance).

The Dragon Pass boardgame army listings don't have any combined arms cavalry in the Cavalry Corps, though. Horse archers are weak to/at melee attacks but faster, and Count/Satrap Alehandro's Spolite Carmanians in the Cavalry Corps are a 4 - 3 - 5 average cavalry unit (the same as mounted Sartar City Militia).

33 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The image you provide is not an accurate source for any horses in the Near East, as the artist would have portrayed the horses they were familiar with in the Mediterranean region.

I wonder about that, too. Alexander was riding Bucephalos for much of his campaign, even after he had access to the Persian stables.

That indicates to me that his horses must have been well on par with the best the Persians had to throw at him - possibly a breed derived from Nisean stock by his predecessors as kings of Macedon. There was a century between the first written mention of Niseans and Alexander's campaigns, enough to establish a superior shock cavalry horse breed.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The horses may have been inaccurate for the Persian king's chariot, but that's rather late in the Iron Age, not Bronze Age.

Glorantha is Bronze Age in art, myth and the way people relate to their world. There are numerous anachronisms, and I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

But regardless of Terran Near East horses of the late Iron Age, we know that the Sered horse breed of Glorantha is about Iceland pony sized, and the Galana hillman breed is even somewhat smaller - probably about the size depicted in the Darius mosaic. Pelorian horses equivalent to the Niseans would be Carmanian Chargers, something reserved for shock troops, not horse archers. Unless your horse archer is a Carmanian style cataphract also armed with a horse bow (worn on the back while still charging in with a lance).

We know these things? Really? The Galana seems roughly equivalent to the British Iron Age horse, about 11 hands; the modern Icelandic pony measures 13 to 14 hands, which would make it a sizable horse in the western Roman world. For Glorantha, we have SIZ 3D6+12 for the Galana, SIZ 3D6+18 for the Daron, which isn't that much. I would note, again, that you are not looking at the actual size of the horse compared with the rider.

Also note that the Icelandic pony is a relatively modern introduction...

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Dragon Pass boardgame army listings don't have any combined arms cavalry in the Cavalry Corps, though.

There are far more recent and complete canonical army lists. There are several 'combined arms' regiments.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I wonder about that, too. Alexander was riding Bucephalos for much of his campaign, even after he had access to the Persian stables.

That indicates to me that his horses must have been well on par with the best the Persians had to throw at him - possibly a breed derived from Nisean stock by his predecessors as kings of Macedon. There was a century between the first written mention of Niseans and Alexander's campaigns, enough to establish a superior shock cavalry horse breed.

Bucephalus was probably a Thessalian, which had a reputation of being large (for the period) tough horses, or perhaps a Turkmene - extinct, but the modern Akhal-Teke may be pretty close, and modern examples are 14-15 hands; they are also probably related to the extinct Niseans. So, away from northern Europe and the eastern/southern Mediterranean there were some respectably sized horses.

If the sources are accurate, Bucephalus did not come from a royal Macedonian herd, but from a travelling horse trader.

When the Neo Assyrians went on a punitive expedition against the barbarians to the east of the Zargos Mountains, one of their prime targets were the horse herds of the Medes - because the horses were large and powerful, excellent cavalry horses, and because it was a means of disrupting Medean capability to attack them.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That posture doesn't really come across, but there is no way he is hunching forward at an angle that would lead to the arm positions supporting the force required to draw such a bow at that length.

The elbow still is way lower than I have seen on other (contemporary) images of horse archers from horse archer cultures, or by re-enactors. Seeing that posture and trying to recreate it causes me to feel stress in my shoulders, and that's already without a heavy bow to draw. The upper right arm should go up, not down, when drawing the string, even when anchoring somewhere in the region of your collarbones rather than in your face. Human anatomy is one thing that is no different between Gloranthans and people from our world.

I am not an artist. I look forward to seeing your artwork.

Meanwhile, the result of a quick search online... Yes, I know this archer is using stirrups, but...

Joerg.png

Edited by M Helsdon

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53 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

We know these things? Really? The Galana seems roughly equivalent to the British Iron Age horse, about 11 hands; the modern Icelandic pony measures 13 to 14 hands, which would make it a sizable horse in the Roman world. For Glorantha, we have SIZ 3D6+12 for the Galana, SIZ 3D6+18 for the Daron, which isn't that much. I would note, again, that you are not looking at the actual size of the horse compared with the rider.

From what data I've seen for real world horses, an 11 hand high horse would probably average around 560 pounds (272kg), which was  about SIZ 28 in RQ3. 3D6+12 average out at SIZ 28.5, so you're probably on the right track as far as the height. 

 

53 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I am not an artist. 

Well, you can certainly fake it pretty well. Better than some artists I've known.

 

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7 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

From what data I've seen for real world horses, an 11 hand high horse would probably average around 560 pounds (272kg), which was  about SIZ 28 in RQ3. 3D6+12 average out at SIZ 28.5, so you're probably on the right track as far as the height. 

Interesting.

7 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Well, you can certainly fake it pretty well. Better than some artists I've known.

An artist could do these sketches in a few minutes; I take several hours. I can see I'm going to have to redraw this one; maybe I can salvage the horse and tack...

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1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Interesting.

I was working on some horse breed info for Pendragon, and collected some same weights and converted them into SIZ values for Pendragon, and also for RQ3 (I'm not sure if RQG uses the same SIZ progression or not). I made a table that gives a SIZ value for a given height (in hands). I was hoping to use it to see about medieval horses. I usually can find info on height, but very little on weight.

If you want I can post a table with average SIZ stats per height in hands. It varies a little by breed, but not by more than about 3 points in either direction.

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

An artist could do these sketches in a few minutes; I take several hours. I can see I'm going to have to redraw this one; maybe I can salvage the horse and tack...

LOL! I know that feeling. Repetition helps. 

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Well, I am a professional figurative artist and I think you have done a splendid job!

As to the archer, my only criticism is actually the degree of twist you have in his lower leg, his foot should be pointing more downwards. The shin might be a tad too long as well.

The shoulder is fine given the armour is covering the shoulder joint and that it's obscuring our view of it. The elbow might go up and out a bit though.

On a related topic, without looking it up (and off the top of my head), is the wasp rider a bit too big, given that they are pygmies (if they are, that is)?

Otherwise great stuff!!

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2 hours ago, Lord High Munchkin said:

On a related topic, without looking it up (and off the top of my head), is the wasp rider a bit too big, given that they are pygmies (if they are, that is)?

I believe Helsdon said that they are not all relative to scale with each other.

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7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Also note that the Icelandic pony is a relatively modern introduction...

The Icelandic pony is the sole survivor of the old European horse breeds after a highly fatal plague swept through Europe in the Middle Ages, eliminating the previous breeds left behind by Huns, Romans, Avars and Germanic folk, probably replacing them with Spanish and Turkish breeds. Prior to that plague, it was simply the horse...

 

7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Bucephalus was probably a Thessalian, which had a reputation of being large (for the period) tough horses

Thus a breed well known (at least by reputation) by the Greeks who created this mosaic, that apparently got other details right like the rails of the chariot - a vehicle that was only used in races by the Greeks by the time the mosaic was made. Unfortunately most of the horse detail on Alexander did not survive, but otherwise that mosaic is pretty much setting the tone for all subsequent battle depictions.

 

7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I am not an artist. I look forward to seeing your artwork.

I'm even less of an artist, which makes my drawings of humans at best resembling those on the Bayeux tapestry. Occasionally I dabble in drawings of architecture, landscapes or in maps, and may do that again once I get myself a WYSIWYG graphic tablet. (My most recent "oeuvre" was a set of drawings of helmeted and round-eyed legionella bacteria for an aborted infotainment webpage.)

Let me put it that way - your drawings have the quality that this one threw me off for not quite being up to the high standard you put forth.

 

7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There are far more recent and complete canonical army lists. There are several 'combined arms' regiments.

Some of those lists may have fallen into the post-canonical category, and never appeared in official print.

Mind you, I was advocating combined arms regiments for Carmanian cavalry when I first addressed the issue of knights in Glorantha two dozen years ago.

I regard the Dragon Pass regiments as one of the untouchable basic foundations of Glorantha, possibly subject to some re-interpretation. Even when it makes the Sartarite hillman militia better cavalry than their lowland Native Furthest corps counterparts.

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45 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I regard the Dragon Pass regiments as one of the untouchable basic foundations of Glorantha, possibly subject to some re-interpretation. Even when it makes the Sartarite hillman militia better cavalry than their lowland Native Furthest corps counterparts.

Replace Elmal with Yelmalio as the cavalry god and that's what happens... (Happans) ;)

The Tarshite cavalry are presumably descended from the Yarandros hero band, which, given his connections to the Berennethtelli, were presumably (originally) Elmali.

Edited by jeffjerwin
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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Icelandic pony is the sole survivor of the old European horse breeds after a highly fatal plague swept through Europe in the Middle Ages, eliminating the previous breeds left behind by Huns, Romans, Avars and Germanic folk, probably replacing them with Spanish and Turkish breeds. Prior to that plague, it was simply the horse...

Do you know approximately when was that plague? I've read and though that breeds such as the Welsh Cob and Shetland Pony went back at least as far as the Icelandic Horse. All three (and other horse breeds) have been bred with other horses at various times.  Much of the original Icelandic stock was wiped out after a volcanic eruption, of all things, in 1780, hence M Helsdon's comment on the Icelandic being a relatively modern introduction.

 

 

Edited by Atgxtg

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7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Thus a breed well known (at least by reputation) by the Greeks who created this mosaic, that apparently got other details right like the rails of the chariot

Speculation. Also, the chariot looks nothing like the representations of a Persian chariot of the time.

The Alexander Mosaic is Roman; it is probably a copy of an earlier Greek painting, but we simply don't know.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Some of those lists may have fallen into the post-canonical category, and never appeared in official print.

I know: I have two earlier versions, in addition to the modern canonical version.

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13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I was working on some horse breed info for Pendragon, and collected some same weights and converted them into SIZ values for Pendragon, and also for RQ3 (I'm not sure if RQG uses the same SIZ progression or not). I made a table that gives a SIZ value for a given height (in hands). I was hoping to use it to see about medieval horses. I usually can find info on height, but very little on weight.

If you want I can post a table with average SIZ stats per height in hands. It varies a little by breed, but not by more than about 3 points in either direction.

That would be of wider interest, I'm certain.

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49 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

That would be of wider interest, I'm certain.

Okay, here is a short table that gives an average SIZ and an  average range of SIZ for a given height of horse in hands.  As the data includes some breeds that are modern it might be a little off from ancient or medieval values but probably not by much, since those earlier horses were short but often stocky. The ranges are somewhat small compared to the RQ SIZ range, but a larger horse would tend to be taller, given each breed/type a range of heights.. 

The table also gives a SIZ rating as the percentage of the horses's weight for purposes of seeing how big a rider the horse can comfortably carry.  The rider SIZ values are probably a little low at the low end, as the low hand size data is almost exclusively from Shetland ponies, which are very strong for their weight. 

Most light calvary horses would carry a load (rider and kit) equal or less than 20% of the horse's weight. Heavy Calvary/Shock would carry a load of  25% or even 30% of the horses weight, but usually for shorter periods, and only in actual combat. Note that this doesn't factor in for STR, or more accurately assumes a given muscle mass and STR for a given mass (or SIZ) or horse. I'm working on factoring in for STR, but as most horses types have a a SIZ about 4-6 points than their STR, I'd have to add about 2-3 points of SIZ to the load weights of horses in the middle of the table, but little or nothing to horses at the ends (draft horses).

Oh, for those who don't know, a hand is considered to be 4" or 10 cm. So a 15 hand horse would be 60"/150cm tall. 

If anybody canto confirm/deny that the RQG's SIZ table is the same one that Chaosium has been using since RQ3, I can try to update the table to the newer system.  

 

Height RQ3 SIZ Range Rider 20% Rider 25% Rider 30%
9-9.3 26 25-26 7 11 12
10-10.3 27 26-28 8 12 13
11-11.3 27 25-29 9 13 14
12-12.3 29 26-31 10 14 15
13-13.3 33 28-35 14 18 19
14-14.3 34 31-36 15 19 20
15-15.3 35 33-36 16 20 21
16-16.1 36 35-36 17 21 22
16.2-16.3 37 35-38 18 22 23
17-17.1 40 38-41 21 25 26
17.2-17.3 41 41-42 22 26 27
Edited by Atgxtg
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16 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

 

From what data I've seen for real world horses, an 11 hand high horse would probably average around 560 pounds (272kg), which was  about SIZ 28 in RQ3. 3D6+12 average out at SIZ 28.5, so you're probably on the right track as far as the height.

Errrrh, 3D6+12 averages 22.5.

Kloster

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1 minute ago, Kloster said:

Errrrh, 3D6+12 averages 22.5.

Kloster

Good point. My bad, I mean't 3D6+18 (28.5) not 3D6+12. However in RQ3 a SIZ 22.5 horse would only weight around 330 pounds ans probably wouldn't be of much use as a mount to anybody who weighed over 110 pounds. 

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13 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

At the shoulders, or somewhere else?

You'll love this:  a horse's height is measured at the withers

 

What the @#$% are the withers? It's a ridge between the shoulder blades.

Why measure from there? Apparently because the horse will raise and lower it's head, but it's shoulders remain at a constant height. 

Edited by Atgxtg
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Damn those "saddles" are primitive.  How did anybody actually stay mounted?  Glue spells?  Certainly nobody will be couching a lance or they will wind up being launched by it.

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58 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Damn those "saddles" are primitive.  How did anybody actually stay mounted?  Glue spells?  Certainly nobody will be couching a lance or they will wind up being launched by it.

This might be a bit of an aside, but I used to dabble in military history, and the general gist of it is that before the invention of the stirrups, the overarm thrust in lancing was used, which severely limited the usefulness of heavy cavalry, and charging in general. If a saddle doesn't even have an under-belly strap, that obviously reduces the stability even further, as does the lack of a front-and-rear (swell/gullet and cantle) elevation on the saddle for seat stabilization.

However, as far as I understand, there is actually evidence that ancient people did in fact use underarm lance thrusts before the invention of the stirrup, and the total absence of it is apparently a misconception. I'm afraid I don't know more than that, as I only dabbled it in this stuff. It might've been a rarer move, or highly circumstantial, or only moderately useful, I don't know. What we do know is that underarming became a lot more common after stirrups were introduced.

 

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