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Jon Hunter

The 'Tone' of Prostitution in Glorantha

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1 hour ago, Jon Hunter said:

My position is that Glorantha to date has had a broadly positive and liberated view of prostitution, and hasn't dealt with the grimier side. After this discussion i'm absolutely convinced about how i need to write it, grim dirty, horrible, abusive and with a degree of social comment, and if that deviates from cannon sod it.

...

I can see a story-arc where the PC's are hired by a Ulerian Priestess to help reform the vile practice and restore prostitution to its sacred role...

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Most Genertelans have a broadly positive and liberated view of sex. Sex is often incorporated into the worship rituals of fertility deities. Uleria cultists consider sex to be an act of worship of their goddess, and worship with whatever lay members join the cult. Her temples are sacred brothels and her cult is often closely linked to other cults, such as Ernalda, Orlanth, Lodril, etc - even Yelm acknowledges Uleria in conjunction with Dendara.

There are other people who offer Uleria's blessings without even being initiates of the cult.  Such people can be found entertaining clients at taverns, following armies, and so forth.

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And zombie trollkin prostitutes don't tickle your horror-bone?

No its not horror, imho its silly gross out stuff that glorifies the perversion. Horror is worth doing when it resonates with the evil that men do. 

If I go to the gross in my games i'm hoping to pull the best out of my players in response. In a sense create some Pathos in the game.

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Oh, I thought that had been answered and we were just having fun!

We may have different definitions of fun. We hit the realms of snuff and necrophilia 'for a laugh'.

Not my thing even if its fantasy, and jest.

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Absolutely right.

Glorantha has horrifically abusive stuff in it (Ogres and broos for example), but companies tend to shy away from going overboard for reasons of taste, decency and getting a bad reputation.

GMs, on the other hand, can do pretty much what they like.

 

Imho I think there needs to be reason to go there. If we want to be impressed by the cleverness of how gross we can be, well that does nothing for me. In fact it repulses me. But if we want to face the evil that men do in fantasy situation, where its easier to deal with and face and respond to, that maybe a worthwhile reason for a game going there. 

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Most Genertelans have a broadly positive and liberated view of sex. Sex is often incorporated into the worship rituals of fertility deities. Uleria cultists consider sex to be an act of worship of their goddess, and worship with whatever lay members join the cult. Her temples are sacred brothels and her cult is often closely linked to other cults, such as Ernalda, Orlanth, Lodril, etc - even Yelm acknowledges Uleria in conjunction with Dendara.

There are other people who offer Uleria's blessings without even being initiates of the cult.  Such people can be found entertaining clients at taverns, following armies, and so forth.

Cheers Jeff,

That sums the positive liberal view of sexuality and this prostitution which has been prevalent with Glorantha.  It doesn't touch on some of the ropier areas I was enquiring about.

Rape and slavery are both things which at least in some Gloranthan cultures are seen as chaotic behaviour.  So are there laws, morals and norms that forbid the sexual exploration of slaves within Gloranthan societies?  

  • I can see the Orlanthi having big problems with the sexual exploitation of thralls.
  • I can worshipper as Yelm, having different moral issues with it around class and what is 'becoming'.
  • I'm not sure on the Lunars, or that they have many different and contradictory views.

Or would it been seen as chaotic behaviour in some cultures but not in others?  

That leads me to a big question is the definition of chaos consistent across Glorantha?

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10 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Cheers Jeff,

That sums the positive liberal view of sexuality and this prostitution which has been prevalent with Glorantha.  It doesn't touch on some of the ropier areas I was enquiring about.

Rape and slavery are both things which at least in some Gloranthan cultures are seen as chaotic behaviour.  So are there laws, morals and norms that forbid the sexual exploration of slaves within Gloranthan societies?  

  • I can see the Orlanthi having big problems with the sexual exploitation of thralls.
  • I can worshipper as Yelm, having different moral issues with it around class and what is 'becoming'.
  • I'm not sure on the Lunars, or that they have many different and contradictory views.

Or would it been seen as chaotic behaviour in some cultures but not in others?  

That leads me to a big question is the definition of chaos consistent across Glorantha?

Rape is considered evil by pretty much every Gloranthan culture (the broos acknowledge that rape is evil but do it anyways because they hate the world). There is NOWHERE near the amount of rape in Glorantha as there was/is in the real world. In Glorantha, rape endangers the harvest, the fertility of the community, and runs the not insignificant risk of being avenged by Babeester Gor axe maidens. 

Sexual exploitation of slaves no doubt occurs, but like many aspects of slavery, it involves "forced consent" (which would be prosecuted as rape in the US, but Glorantha is not the modern world). The Hendriki (which include most Old Sartarites) are one of the few civilized cultures that refuse to own slaves (but do have a large "half-free" community).

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And never underestimate the impact of Babeester Gor has on preventing rape. Throughout the Theyalan lands, there is a cult of elite warrior women who have a cult duty to hunt down rapists, and kill them after torturing them. And those axe maidens are one of the three premier warrior cults in a warrior society.

Glorantha is definitely not Westeros.

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I can see the inherent deterent for rape throughout Central Genertela with Babeestor Gor's influence. 

I wonder if there are similar deterents elswhere? For example how does it work in Western Genertela?

Is such a violation of liberty a transgression of any of the laws of Malkion?

I presume Caste plays a major role when someone is the victem of any crime in Malkioni society ?

 

Edited by Mankcam

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Glorantha is definitely not Westeros.

Cheers again,

Interesting comment, can unpick what i think you mean by it.   

  • The tone of Glorantha is lighter and more 'moral'
  • The world and the game has a positive and liberal view of sex and but doesn't want to be overly sexualised
  • Grim sexual events usually have in world consequences
  • If you are going to 'go there' do it for a reason, do it with taste, come back quickly

have i read between the lines right there ?

Jon

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On 18/01/2017 at 4:36 PM, g33k said:

...

I can see a story-arc where the PC's are hired by a Ulerian Priestess to help reform the vile practice and restore prostitution to its sacred role...

This is exactly what I thought when I read the first posts and I think it can make for a great urban campaign in Pavis or in Nochet, for example.

The tone could be dark (or even darker, but this is not what I want to explore) but I can easily imagine a lighter one or even a mix of comedy and drama. While taking some notes, I had a lot of laugh imagining a conflict with a Lunar equivalent of Uleria looking for its own place under the sun, getting at odd with the Uleria cult (already at odd with a Pavisite gang) and the whole thing leading to the freedom of Pavis and escalating into the Hero Wars. Something like "The freeing of Pavis: the real story...".

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1 hour ago, Corvantir said:

... and the whole thing leading to the freedom of Pavis and escalating into the Hero Wars. Something like "The freeing of Pavis: the real story...".

ROFLMAO !

You may just have "YGMV"'ed me a whole new iteration of My Glorantha, right there ...

 

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12 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I can see the inherent deterent for rape throughout Central Genertela with Babeestor Gor's influence. 

Not just BG cultists.  You've gotta know that at times they will be comrades-in-arms with Vingan (and other Orlanthi), Humakti, Storm Bulls, etc...

BG Cultist:  "Hey guys... just learned female slaves are being raped over Nochet way.  Gonna go fix that, with extreme prejudice.  Anyone wanna lend a hand?"
V+O+H+SB:  "oh HELL yeah !"

Uzko:  <ahem>  "My people have, from time to time, been known to revere the female... can I help too?"

BG+V+O+H+SB: "oh HELL yeah !"

... etc ...

Ernalda, Eiritha, etc... not to mention their spouses... Yelorna and thence her pappa Yelm & brother Yelmalio...

When you think about it, there are more cults WITH reason to find rape to be a serious problem, than do NOT find it so...

Edited by g33k
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12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:
  • Grim sexual events usually have in world consequences

I think he wa especially implying this one.  Let me quote (with added emphasis):

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

 ... a cult of elite warrior women who have a cult duty to hunt down rapists, and kill them after torturing them...

Grim events, yes ...  And "grim" real-world consequences .

Because you just GOTTA know that any time you're calling out "torture" as a "cult duty," that's gonna be  really, really, REALLY  unpleasant.  Torture of a spy, for info?  That's just business.  But unless you're Issaries/Etyries, religion is NEVER "just business."

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On 1/18/2017 at 0:08 PM, Jon Hunter said:

Or would it been seen as chaotic behaviour in some cultures but not in others?  

That leads me to a big question is the definition of chaos consistent across Glorantha?

I think the "definition" of Chaos is the same -- it's what's from the Void outside creation -- but I expect different cultures may slap the "smacks of Chaos" label onto different things that aren't directly bits-of-Chaos-loose-in-the-world.

Some of it may genuinely have a Chaotic impetus; other times, it may be used in ignorance, or just to gain some (political or other) advantage without knowing or caring that it genuinely is or isn't Chaotic...

 

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 I can see a big fight now between Babeestor Gor and Stormbull worshippers on who gets to Torture and kill  a rapist.

 I wonder if a human  serial rapist would come to the attention of Thed and be drawn to  join a group of nearby Broo or even start to turn into a Broo

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19 hours ago, Jeff said:

Rape is considered evil by pretty much every Gloranthan culture (the broos acknowledge that rape is evil but do it anyways because they hate the world). There is NOWHERE near the amount of rape in Glorantha as there was/is in the real world. In Glorantha, rape endangers the harvest, the fertility of the community, and runs the not insignificant risk of being avenged by Babeester Gor axe maidens. 

Sexual exploitation of slaves no doubt occurs, but like many aspects of slavery, it involves "forced consent" (which would be prosecuted as rape in the US, but Glorantha is not the modern world). The Hendriki (which include most Old Sartarites) are one of the few civilized cultures that refuse to own slaves (but do have a large "half-free" community).

 Even with the Half free the Thane could inform the  a member of the lower class her choice of Jobs are working inside the Manor House and sleeping on clean linen( But not alone) and eating good food or tending the pigs and sharing their meals.

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If I recall the Entekosiad correctly, Gorgorma is implied to be Pelandan in origin.  We have Jaga Natha from Naveria.  With these cults producing a sweep of anti-rapist culture to the south and west of the Oslir River Valley, does this imply something about Dara Happan propensities?

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10 hours ago, TRose said:

I wonder if a human  serial rapist would come to the attention of Thed and be drawn to  join a group of nearby Broo or even start to turn into a Broo

Yes.  I recall the latter was specifically stated (perhaps in Cults of Terror?).

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On 2017-01-14 at 1:11 PM, Ian Cooper said:

With large military garrisons it seems certain prostitution would thrive, so waves of Maboder survivors, destitute kin of those who fight in Starbrow's Rebellion, Dundealos survivors, or kin of those who fought at Iceland, or whose family or clan died in the Great Winter may well end up in the cities, where if they have no other trade, prostitution may become an option. They are being exploited, because they are vulnerable.

It also seems likely that there would be an amount of "part-time" prostitution in Orlanthi clans – the stickpicker woman who help ends meet by taking the occasional carl into her hut for a hunk of cheese or leg of goat, and the like. 

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On 2017-01-19 at 7:55 AM, Jeff said:

Rape is considered evil by pretty much every Gloranthan culture (the broos acknowledge that rape is evil but do it anyways because they hate the world). There is NOWHERE near the amount of rape in Glorantha as there was/is in the real world. In Glorantha, rape endangers the harvest, the fertility of the community, and runs the not insignificant risk of being avenged by Babeester Gor axe maidens. 

Sexual exploitation of slaves no doubt occurs, but like many aspects of slavery, it involves "forced consent" (which would be prosecuted as rape in the US, but Glorantha is not the modern world). The Hendriki (which include most Old Sartarites) are one of the few civilized cultures that refuse to own slaves (but do have a large "half-free" community).

Everyone condemns rape, but they may not classify certain things as rape that we would. The sexual abuse of slaves, as you mention, and I also cannot imagine that marital rape is even a concept within Yelmic culture, for instance (or most other, for that matter).

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OK cheers for most of the responses.

I know how i'm going to work this through i'm my Balazar campaign now.

I'm seeing enforced prostitution of slaves as a form of rape, which will generated chaotic passion spirits and chaotic corruption in those enforcing the situation and those sleeping with the girls.

This will see higher instance of rape from the elkio garrison, chaotic corruption and desertion because of it. 

This creating a whole subplot for and Eryptus my players to deal with.

I may put a human worshipper of Thed in the middle of it too.

Edited by Jon Hunter
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I generally regard Inara Serra, from the TV show Firefly as the model for a Uleria priestess. I've also said to players that the difference between a poor streetwalker and a Uleria priestess (or priest) is the difference between a thug with a knife and a Humakti rune lord. It gets the point across.

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On 20/01/2017 at 6:57 AM, Ali the Helering said:

If I recall the Entekosiad correctly, Gorgorma is implied to be Pelandan in origin.  We have Jaga Natha from Naveria.  With these cults producing a sweep of anti-rapist culture to the south and west of the Oslir River Valley, does this imply something about Dara Happan propensities?

JagaNatha might as well embrace rape as punish it, IMO.

 

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9 hours ago, pachristian said:

I generally regard Inara Serra, from the TV show Firefly as the model for a Uleria priestess. I've also said to players that the difference between a poor streetwalker and a Uleria priestess (or priest) is the difference between a thug with a knife and a Humakti rune lord. It gets the point across.

I believe that both Greg's Glorantha & Whedon's 'Verse draw their inspiration explicitly from the Ancient Greek "Hetaera" ideal, with a few influences such as "Geisha" -- moreso the Ancient Greek, I take it, than the historical hints of real-world "sacred prostitution..." but I may be misunderstanding that!

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Concerning Temples of Uleria dedicated to prostitution, I think most cities in Glorantha, including the smallest ones such as New Pavis, have at least a whore's street. Temples are independent, or form some sort of guild, and must sponsored by nobles.

 

 

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