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Jon Hunter

Lunar Names

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On ‎12‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 11:42 AM, Tcneseleis said:

For Dara Happan names, names can be used with a -us, -a or other Latin termination, etc. Other forms can be derived from Greek in the same way but it is not found in the Gloranthan sources.

For Lunar names the forms are whatever. Everyone in the Empire can become a Lunar.

 

A significant number of Dara Happan names are theophoric in nature, and if the 'divine portion' is the final element of the name then that will define the ending.

e.g. khor-DAVU, mahzan-ELM, anirest-YU

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2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

A significant number of Dara Happan names are theophoric in nature, and if the 'divine portion' is the final element of the name then that will define the ending.

e.g. khor-DAVU, mahzan-ELM, anirest-YU

Then maybe Dara Happan uses case-endings that can be dropped in some words and in other similar languages. I'm not really a language expert.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

Then maybe Dara Happan uses case-endings that can be dropped in some words and in other similar languages. I'm not really a language expert.

 

 

There are three standard male name endings.  One of which is unsounded and would be the logical ending following one of these divine suffixes.

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Couldn't Dara Happan and Pelorian languages form names based on divine names such as Lodrilius, Dendarius or Yelmia, with the divine names expanded by a suffix?

 

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2 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

Couldn't Dara Happan and Pelorian languages form names based on divine names such as Lodrilius, Dendarius or Yelmia, with the divine names expanded by a suffix?

 

I think whats been stated is that the suffix is the divine portion.

My first run at dara happen was too expansive and not useful

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13 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

the suffix is the divine portion

Correct, -davu, -elm, -estyu all appear as suffixes.

You have to be careful which you might use though.  For instance, no part of the names Lodril or Mohenjar or any other 'worker' god would ever appear in the name of a noble, but quite likely in the name of a commoner.

If you look at the alphabet in Fortunate Succession, there are a group of four prefix letters (unclear whether there is any sound associated) that denote actual divine, heroic, or demonic status.

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I didn't remember... "Miscellaenous Observations on Odd Runes" mentions the god Khor. I think divine names can be used as prefixes too. There is one named Elmatryan. And Bisoshan, referring to Bisos the Bull god from Carmania.

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Tcneseleis said:

Bisoshan, referring to Bisos the Bull god from Carmania

Yes, but that mixes Carmanian/Pelandan names in, which would generally not be found in DH.

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13 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I think the name YELM-gatha does suggest that the divine portion may also be the prefix!

Variation is the spice of life.

However if you want a group of names to feel distinct and like a language set then you need a core set of rules that differ from others. Variation from this would be normal. But a strong and distinct rule set creates something interesting.

Edited by Jon Hunter

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In terms of the clearly theophoric names in the FS listing since time:

Divine Prefix: 38, 40?, 47, 49, 76

Divine Suffix: 26, 27b, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45b, 54, 64, 65, 71, 'Outlaw' 3 & 4

Divine Intermediate: 59, 60, 62

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2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

In terms of the clearly theophoric names in the FS listing since time:

Divine Prefix: 38, 40?, 47, 49, 76

Divine Suffix: 26, 27b, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45b, 54, 64, 65, 71, 'Outlaw' 3 & 4

Divine Intermediate: 59, 60, 62

It would seem that suffix is the 'rule' then. The other the exceptions.

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Actually, this indicates roughly 70% suffix, 20% prefix, 10% intermediary. I don't think there is a need for a prescriptive 'rule', in the same way that RW cultures have had variable theophoric patterns.

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On 21/02/2017 at 5:43 PM, Ali the Helering said:

Actually, this indicates roughly 70% suffix, 20% prefix, 10% intermediary. I don't think there is a need for a prescriptive 'rule', in the same way that RW cultures have had variable theophoric patterns.

Depends what you wish to achieve.

There more flexibility in naming convetnions the higher the risk of naming falling into 'generic fantasy randomness'.

I my opinion if you want names within a culture to appear to belong to a family you need simpler structures and rules sets than the real world.

This is because real world complexities can be lost within a  game environment, so simple models signpost things better.

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6 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Depends what you wish to achieve.

There more flexibility in naming convetnions the higher the risk of naming falling into 'generic fantasy randomness'.

I my opinion if you want names within a culture to appear to belong to a family you need simpler structures and rules sets than the real world.

This is because real world complexities can be lost within a  game environment, so simple models signpost things better.

Certainly true. As ever, it is a matter of what you are wanting to do with your Glorantha, and which gaming style you prefer. Personally I prefer simulation, so I prefer complexity and variation. YGWV, and let us rejoice in that! 

If, however, you were a pedant like myself, you might be interested to know that male name endings appear to vary over time periods according to GRoY and FS.

Ante-diluvian:              -eus, -ial, -ius, -o, -os, -us

Flood to the Dawn:     -ans, -ath, -ed, -elm, -es, -et, -ius, -sha, -us, -vu

Dawn to Nysalor:        -elm, -os, -sha, -shu, -tu, -um, -us, -vu

Nyslaor to Dragon:     -an, -at, -elm, -iod, -ir, -kum, nik, -os, -sha, -shal, -vu, -yu

Post-Draconic:           -an, -at, -ars, -esh, -ius, -ni, -tha, -us, -vu, -yu

At the least, this indicates some interesting drifts in naming practises by virtue of reference to deities, with -yu being such a late addition. In RW naming conventions this might indicate the introduction of a cult or a dramatic change in status/understanding.  That is what comes of being a simulationist pedant!  MGDV

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5 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Certainly true. As ever, it is a matter of what you are wanting to do with your Glorantha, and which gaming style you prefer. Personally I prefer simulation, so I prefer complexity and variation. YGWV, and let us rejoice in that! 

If, however, you were a pedant like myself, you might be interested to know that male name endings appear to vary over time periods according to GRoY and FS.

Ante-diluvian:              -eus, -ial, -ius, -o, -os, -us

Flood to the Dawn:     -ans, -ath, -ed, -elm, -es, -et, -ius, -sha, -us, -vu

Dawn to Nysalor:        -elm, -os, -sha, -shu, -tu, -um, -us, -vu

Nyslaor to Dragon:     -an, -at, -elm, -iod, -ir, -kum, nik, -os, -sha, -shal, -vu, -yu

Post-Draconic:           -an, -at, -ars, -esh, -ius, -ni, -tha, -us, -vu, -yu

At the least, this indicates some interesting drifts in naming practises by virtue of reference to deities, with -yu being such a late addition. In RW naming conventions this might indicate the introduction of a cult or a dramatic change in status/understanding.  That is what comes of being a simulationist pedant!  MGDV

My views came from spending a couple of hours initially trying every variation in every combination and I got a very long and varied fantasy mush.

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21 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Further to my earlier post, I should note that I had separated out those of obviously Rinliddin origin, -ka, -os, -us

OK 2nd draft of Darra Happen names;

Taken from FS, added a few more modern (post EWF) forms and raided Babylonian for a few ideas and shorter names;

Aegrastus
Anaxat
Anaxesh
Anaxial 
Anaxtha
Anirantha
Anirat
Anirdavu 
Anirdayu 
Anirestyu 
Anirinelm
Anirmesh
Anirmesha 
Ansahrestyu
Ardashelm
Asvekhordevu 
Bahramdar
Bahramdat
Baramestyu
Bersus
Carmanos
Carmanus
Carshandar
Cashandan
Daonestyu
Daxdarius 
Denesiod 
Desikani 
Desikanir 
Desikselm 
Dismanelm
Dismanthuyar
Dismatryan 
Dismesiod 
Duzindat
Elamanthat
Elesandrius
Elesdandrus 
Elmantha
Elmantius
Elmatryan
Elmatus
Elmesiod 
Elmestesh
Elmexdro
Elmharsni 
Elmharsnik 
Erraibdavu
Erzanelm 
Erzanestyu
Fenaldevu 
Gadatestyu
Gahal
Gardeveus 
Garthesh
Garthum 
Gathesh
Gerruskoger 
Glaumalos 
Glautorus
Helemshal
Heredars
Heredesh
Jenarong 
Karanestyu
Karashal
Karastus
Karmexdros
Karsdevesus
Kastokus 
Kazkurtum 
Kazkurum
Kerunebbe
Kestinendos
Kestinoros 
Kewetdesh
Kewetdevsus
Kewetdroni
Khahestyu
Khamantus
Khordavu
Khordesh
Khordestyu
Khordtha
Khorventos 
Khorventyu
Khorviramaka
Khorzanelm
Kumardesh
Kumardroni
Kumardros 
Kumarestyu
Kumarstyu
Kurmadelm
Kurmantus
Kurmanzelm
Lendarshi 
Lendenshi
Lendestyu
Lugalesh
Lukarius 
Mahzanelm
Manarlarvus 
Manarlavus 
Manatelm
Mandesh
Mandros
Manestyu
Manimat 
Mardakelm
Murharkelm
Murharzarm
Nadar
Nadat
Nadesh
Niska
Oravinos 
Ordanestyu
Orogoros 
Orogorus 
Ovosto
Ovostos
Phonostres
Radaidavu
Raibmentha
Raibmesha 
Sarenelm
Sarenesh
Sarentha
Shafer
Sibri
Sisitus
Sitesh
Sothelm
Sotheni
Sothenik 
Surandar
Tamlesh
Tamnishelm
Ulikarelm
Urvairinus 
Vanyoramet
Verendekelm
Viramakradda
Vorandevu 
Vuranostum 

any critiques?

 

Edited by Jon Hunter
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3 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

any critiques?

The Carmanian kings were not DH, but Pelandan (or even western).  Jenarong (and a few others) was of the horse people, so should also be excluded.  One of the things to watch out for in FS is where DH was not ruled by DH so foreign names are included, but in most cases would represent people that the DH would not name their children after (e.g. Ovosto).

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It sounds really good. Impressive. I agree some names should not appear here for those lineages certainly did not stay in Dara Happa proper, unless they have intermarried among nobles in the more recent and peaceful centuries too.

 

Edited by Tcneseleis

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5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

any critiques?

Anaxtha - It is odd to find a name with a voiceless velar fricative "X" followed by a voiced dental fricative "TH".  That doesn't mean it can't exist, it just means that it will get contracted to Anax... and who wants their kid called that?  Cruel parents should be kicked in their Anax.

Carmanos versus Carmanus.  So similar that they might as well be the same name.  As Carmanos was a founder and prophet, not a deity, it is perfectly okay to be named that, as opposed to the Lunarized Carmanus.  It is like a Muslim calling their kid Muhamet, instead of Mohammed.  As an aside for those who like their trivia, "Baphomet" the infamous name of the devil the Knights Templar initates were forced to prostrate themselves before  was actually a corruption of the name "Mohammed".   The Templars explained to Pope Clement that the initiation mimicked the humiliation that knights could suffer if they fell into the hands of the Saracens, while the weird kissing ceremony was a sign of their total obedience, not rampant homosexuality.  The Vatican is set to exonerate the Templars on the basis of this evidence.

Daxdarius - Pelandan War god's name.  Daxdarios, Daxdariath, Daxdarial, all follow the rules without duplicating the name of the deity.

Desikselm - Sounds awful, like DESicated Sick yELM.  But then again Yelmalio is the bastard son of Yelm and Malia right?  That's why his health and fire powers rotted off on the Hill of Gold.  Perhaps this is just a name for a Yelmalio "hero"? (tongue firmly in cheek)

Dismanthuyar, Dismatryan, Dismesiod - So where is Dismal?  Dismay?  Disaster? Distress?  Disco?  They were all sent to the 3rd Legion 4th Cohort 2nd Maniple 7th Squad to serve under General Panic and Major Domo right? :)

Elesdandrus - Alice Dandruff ?

Gadatestyu - Gotta test you, got a test-tube, god detest you?

Kewetdesh,Kewetdevsus, Kewetdroni - as D and T are both dental consonants it is odd to have them together, they would produce a flap consonant like the Indian "dt" sound which few people outside a specific few cultures can even hear let alone pronounce.  In fact as they are both dental consonants they will run together into a single sound, Kewedesh, Kewedevsus (a mouthful), and perhaps Kewetroni not Kewedroni.

Orogoros - *giggle* Just because you CAN have this name, doesn't mean you should.  Spongus is a perfectly respectable Roman name, for example.  Orogoros also sounds a bit too much like Ouroboros which smacks of Draconic heresy.

I am trying to be humorous and constructive here. The fact is that I am probably not being judgmental ENOUGH to be a equivalent to a good Dara Happan parent.  "Our third son will be called Dexenothatroyapos, because my fathers third son was called Dexenothatroyapos, and so on back through every generation from before the beginning of time.  No we cannot shorten it, wife ! And I don't care if the other children laugh at him.  That is the burden every third son of our family has had to bear since the beginning of time too, and yes, they're all dead because nobody could yell their name to warn them in time, but that too is the fate of the third sons of my lineage!"

Edited by Darius West
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6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Jenarong (and a few others) was of the horse people, so should also be excluded. 

Some of the Horse People have Dara Happan names.  Dagguneri actually means something like Eats Woman (since Enari means woman and Dag appears in Dardaggus the Cannibal, another Emperor, and Dag the Muncher, an Ogre King fought by HonEel).  Likewise some of the Horse People Emperors are actually Rinliddi bird people and so their names would be related to Dara Happan (Arguably the same could be said of the other two dynasties of Horse Emperors)

Another consideration that seems not to be mentioned is that the names might be phrases containing a God's name in a non-obvious context.  For example the Assyrian King, Sennacherib; his name actually means something like "Sin (the Moon Goddess) has provided another" - he was presumably born after his parent's lost a child.

 

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10 hours ago, metcalph said:

Some of the Horse People have Dara Happan names.  Dagguneri actually means something like Eats Woman (since Enari means woman and Dag appears in Dardaggus the Cannibal, another Emperor, and Dag the Muncher, an Ogre King fought by HonEel).  Likewise some of the Horse People Emperors are actually Rinliddi bird people and so their names would be related to Dara Happan (Arguably the same could be said of the other two dynasties of Horse Emperors)

Another consideration that seems not to be mentioned is that the names might be phrases containing a God's name in a non-obvious context.  For example the Assyrian King, Sennacherib; his name actually means something like "Sin (the Moon Goddess) has provided another" - he was presumably born after his parent's lost a child.

 

I don't think the DH 'names' of Horse People Emperors are translations, but rather parodies.

"Ooh, my dear, it occurs to me that our foul oppressor's name resembles 'Eats Women.'"  "Make sure nobody hears you say that till he is long dead, life of my heart!"

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On the issue of names crossing cultures it does happen often, and its is not rare in the RW for names to move from culture to another.

Not sure how resistant to Dara happens being to cultural drift, but its is distinctly possible.

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18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Carmanian kings were not DH, but Pelandan (or even western).  Jenarong (and a few others) was of the horse people, so should also be excluded.  One of the things to watch out for in FS is where DH was not ruled by DH so foreign names are included, but in most cases would represent people that the DH would not name their children after (e.g. Ovosto).

The problem with GRoY and FS is that they are not histories, but theological histories.  The reality lived by everyday inhabitants of the valley may be significantly different.      Similarly, the naming and theological preferences of Yelmite urban dwellers may not match those of the farmers beyond the city walls.

Ovosto might have its place, if only as a name element, similar to that of Deshkorgos appearing as part of Darvedeshkorgos the cousin of Khordavu.  (GRoY p51)

Foreign name elements can enter the popular psyche in many ways, not least as indicated in 'The Cult and Worship of Yelm' (FS p70ff), or a chap named Manimat!                  Consider the Gods Wall - Uleria, Umatum, the Naverian Triple Goddess, Oria, Sakkar, Jajagappa, Bakoka, Gamara, Oralanatum, Walindum, and Erlandus.

I think that one can very easily fall prey to the DH propaganda of a changeless society following a primordial religion. However, YGWV

 

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