morokanth and the harmonize spell

[g33k]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

Bear in mind also that the Morokanth have changed since RQ2 & 3. We know a lot more about how they work, including Greg's decision that they are vegetarians.

!*#$%@!!!   Greg needs to go Greg himself!!!

As succinctly pointed out by @soltakss & @Iskallor -- this completely obviates the Covenant.

It also renders something weird-and-a-bit-chilling, a great tragedy and pathos at the core of Praxian survival -- and VERY Gloranthan -- into something kind of... warm-and-fuzzy, and safe.  Blech.

As always, of course, YGMV.

[Pentallion]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

In RQ4? None. Harmonize is now a unique Jack O'Bear feat (as it was way overpowered as a Spirit Magic spell and doesn't really belong to any cult).

Thanks, good to know.  I will miss giving the Morokanth "Ooooooowwwwwnnnned" however.  It made them really dislikable NPC's for my players.

[g33k]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

In RQ4? None. Harmonize is now a unique Jack O'Bear feat (as it was way overpowered as a Spirit Magic spell and doesn't really belong to any cult).

Hmmm.... So, a Chaos Trait of the JO'Bs (I presume you don't mean "Feat" in any D20-esque sense of the term) ?  Will RQ4 have something like (serving the same pupose/function as) RQ2's "Appendix M: Chaotic Features" ?

On the one hand, I understand and even agree with your argument about it being "overpowered.".

OTOH, I think "Harmonize" is a very interesting spell, and I'm sorry to see it go as something that might happen on the battlefield...  Honestly, I wish you would just nerf it somewhat, instead .  I suspect MGWV on this point ...  

As always, however:  THANK YOU for the info on RQ4, and in general for being an engaged & responsive person (and Chaosium as a company) here!

 

[Mankcam]

13 hours ago, David Scott said:

Bear in mind also that the Morokanth have changed since RQ2 & 3. We know a lot more about how they work, including Greg's decision that they are vegetarians.

This will take some time to get my head around, as I presumed that Morokanth kept Herd Men for slave labour AND food stock. Kind of a more brutal variation of the roles Apes played in the Planet Of The Apes series.  

This really added a chilling edge to being lost in Prax. The Animal Barbarians could potentially capture you and sell you at an oasis slave market, whereas the Morokanth..,well you never wanted to be captured by the Morokanth. The Morokanth, the Uz, and the Broos; not a good idea to allow yourself to be captured by any of this crowd.

I may ignore this tidbit of lore, as it just seems out of keeping too much with my original interpretation.For some reason  I don't mind the idea of a total culture like the Malkioni being re-envisioned (I actually dig that), but the Morokanth being vegetarian...well I guess my number is up, and after all these years, Greg has finally 'gregged' me big time, heh heh

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by Mankcam

[Yelm's Light]

Same here as for Mankcam.  Morocanth were one of my preferred 'bad guys' for that very reason.  Big-time boogie men.

[g33k]

Personally, I always bought in to the fully-Praxian view:  the Morokanth don't "en-Gern" ordinary prisoners or captives, or even slaves:  other humans didn't join  Waha's compact, so it'd be kind of sacrilegious to include them into the Compact "after the fact" that way...

It's only outsiders who fear it so dreadfully

The only time they DO turn Men into Herd-Men is temporarily, as a punishment/etc, or occasionally to REALLY freak-out those outsiders...

 

 

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, Mankcam said:

This will take some time to get my head around, as I presumed that Morokanth kept Herd Men for slave labour AND food stock.

It's understandable that this would change how current games would run so, ignore it. It won't change anything. I've written elsewhere on this site about this before ( and in HeroQuest Glorantha), but in short:

the morokanth "cheated" according to the other tribes. Rather than being the only 4-legs that won, the cheat was actually that they stay close to the goddess by remaining vegetarians.

Herd Men are omnivorous, but don't thrive in the Wastelands on its vegetarian diet. They need meat.

Morokanth raid and hunt for meat for the Herd men.

Herd Men harvest foodstuffs for the Morokanth.

Morokanth eat Herd Men at religious ceremonies, it's the only time they can do so as vegetarians.

There are more complicated spinoffs from this as you will figure out. 

 

[Zit]

Just like Mankcam, I liked the Morokanths eating herd men. In my Glorantha, herd men are vegetarians and are considered by all Praxians as herd beasts, not as humans, so it is not taboo to eat them: this complies to the Covenant. I even had my human players invited to share a meal with Morokanths: this was acceptable to Praxians.

As soon as Herd Men are awaken, they become humans and cannot be eaten anymore, whether by other humans or Morokanths : they belong to the flesh eaters, according to the Covenant.

I don't think I'll change it.

[David Scott]

23 minutes ago, Zit said:

and are considered by all Praxians as herd beasts, not as humans, so it is not taboo to eat them: this complies to the Covenant. I even had my human players invited to share a meal with Morokanths: this was acceptable to Praxians.

As soon as Herd Men are awaken, they become humans and cannot be eaten anymore, whether by other humans or Morokanths : they belong to the flesh eaters, according to the Covenant

There is no change here. Herd men are still herd beasts and considered so by all. They are not humans as they are not awakened. The only change is that Morokanth are vegetarians and Herd men are omnivores.

As I said you don't have to use this in your Glorantha. 

[styopa]

On 1/28/2017 at 5:09 AM, David Scott said:

Bear in mind also that the Morokanth have changed since RQ2 & 3. We know a lot more about how they work, including Greg's decision that they are vegetarians.

Thank god we don't all subscribe to such silliness.

If nothing else, Glorantha's been largely free of the "oh we can't do that because it's icky" rationalizations, and I fee this is one of them.

[Jeff]

No it has nothing to do with "not icky". It has to do with thinking seriously about what role trainable long-lived "apes" would have in their society. Greg, David, and I spent a lot of time thinking about the morokanth, and they still largely eat plants. They ritually eat herd-man as part of their religious ceremonies, but are otherwise mainly eating plants. The herdmen allow them to gather food more widely, allow the morokanth to do more than graze, and carry gear, water, and supplies - in short, much the same function as herd animals have for the other tribes.

If your adventurer is captured by the morokanth, odds are they will simply be sold as a slave, unless they have a skill needed by the morokanth (crafting, literacy, etc.). Being transformed into a herdman by Alter Creature is an expensive proposition (2 rune points permanently lost) and done mainly pour encourager les autres.  Herd men are normally bred, not made.

[g33k]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

No it has nothing to do with "not icky". It has to do with thinking seriously about what role trainable long-lived "apes" would have in their society. Greg, David, and I spent a lot of time thinking about the morokanth, and they still largely eat plants. They ritually eat herd-man as part of their religious ceremonies, but are otherwise mainly eating plants.

Thank you for the insight into the thinking behind this change!

I fundamentally disagree, however.  Glorantha's very-elegant core premise -- that it's the MYTH that drives Glorantha -- informs my own position.  While the deeper consideration of the role [of] trainable long-lived "apes" among the Morokanth is interesting and valuable, I don't see that it (even slightly) impinges upon the Compact.

Does the Compact no longer make fundamental changes to both the Eater and to the Eaten?  The Morokanth must have more than a "ritual" obligation to eat herd-men:  unless the Plains/Wastes region now supports "ordinary" herds (those not part of the Survival Compact), not even "vegetarian" Morokanth should be able to thrive there, or even survive in a lean year!  Or has the severity of the region also been nerf'ed?

===

Elsethread, I think Jeff said that what gets other Praxians all hot-n-bothered by "Morokanth cheating" is the idea that they can become "Eaters" yet still keep their proximity to Eiritha (eating directly of Her bounty).

I had always taken the idea of "Morokanth cheating" as something muttered in ignorance among griping mortals, not a true reflection of the mythical event:  some antique Morokanth actually CHEATED both Waha and Eiritha?  They cheated the Survival Compact, endangering what was necessary for ALL the Tribes to survive??  And both Waha and Eiritha let that stand:  an insult to each and both of them, AND a risk to all the Tribes' survival???  Sounds like a big fat "NOPE!" to me.

Vegetarian Morokanth just seem un-Gloranthan.  Is there other Glorantha Lore I have overlooked?

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by g33k
formatting, & snipping-for-relevance

[Jeff]

22 minutes ago, g33k said:

Thank you for the insight into the thinking behind this change!

I fundamentally disagree, however.  Glorantha's very-elegant core premise -- that it's the MYTH that drives Glorantha -- informs my own position.  While the deeper consideration of the role [of] trainable long-lived "apes" among the Morokanth is interesting and valuable, I don't see that it (even slightly) impinges upon the Compact.

Does the Compact no longer make fundamental changes to both the Eater and to the Eaten?  The Morokanth must have more than a "ritual" obligation to eat herd-men:  unless the Plains/Wastes region now supports "ordinary" herds (those not part of the Survival Compact), not even "vegetarian" Morokanth should be able to thrive there, or even survive in a lean year!  Or has the severity of the region also been nerf'ed?

Look at the description of Prax (and not Vulture's Country) from Pavis or Borderlands. It is terrible farmland but it can support herds of animals - just like arid Utah used to support vast herds of bison.

22 minutes ago, g33k said:

===

Elsethread, I think Jeff said that what gets other Praxians all hot-n-bothered by "Morokanth cheating" is the idea that they can become "Eaters" yet still keep their proximity to Eiritha (eating directly of Her bounty).

I had always taken the idea of "Morokanth cheating" as something muttered in ignorance among griping mortals, not a true reflection of the mythical event:  some antique Morokanth actually CHEATED both Waha and Eiritha?  They cheated the Survival Compact, endangering what was necessary for ALL the Tribes to survive??  And both Waha and Eiritha let that stand:  an insult to each and both of them, AND a risk to all the Tribes' survival???  Sounds like a big fat "NOPE!" to me.

Vegetarian Morokanth just seem un-Gloranthan.  Is there other Glorantha Lore I have overlooked?

 

The morokanth cheated because they are obviously herd animals that somehow "won" the Compact and can treat humans like any non-sentient animal of Prax. 

[g33k]

41 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Look at the description of Prax (and not Vulture's Country) from Pavis or Borderlands. It is terrible farmland but it can support herds of animals - just like arid Utah used to support vast herds of bison.

Thank you!

I don't have the PDF, but took a quick skim of the "Classics" vol.IV (and I'm waiting on the RQClassic KS for P&BR); what I found was inconclusive on this point.

I had understood that all the Praxian Herd-Beasts -- whether being herded by Nomads or not -- were able to survive and even prosper.  But other herds could not not.  This survivability was, I thought, one of Waha's key teachings, and also a mythically-significant result of the Survival Compact.

So (for example) ...

A caravan made up of mules or oxen would need to carry extra fodder (cutting down profitable cargo) to supplement what could be foraged; but a caravan of Covenant'ed bison (or High Llama's; those 2 probably being the most-viable caravan-beasts...) would be able to survive on forage alone.

The Pol-Joni, I thought, would come into Prax and survive on a mix of forage and raided/traded stuff for years... but without the extra foodstuffs (that only the tribespeople could get), the horses couldn't last those years.

The Lunars could get no traction in Prax because of the logistical issues... until they allied with the Sables & got the issue solved.

Etc.

Is my understanding on all of this in error?

===

And as for the Morokanth "cheating:"  yet again, this looks like a notably human-POV argument, and it seems very-likely to me that the Mythic (and the Gods') POV will be something different.  ;-)

Clearly, I need to go delve into the Guide!

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by g33k

[MOB]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

what gets other Praxians all hot-n-bothered by "Morokanth cheating" is the idea that they can become "Eaters" yet still keep their proximity to Eiritha (eating directly of Her bounty).

As I contributed elsewhere on this topic, the other Praxians gleefully love serving up buffalo steaks and the like to Morokanth at intra-tribal gatherings. Lest they be accused of being "cheats", to prove their bona-fides in the Compact the Morokanth have to gamely gobble it down. When human Praxians come visiting the Morokanth, they get served meat. The Morokanth ostentatiously get served "steaks" too at such feasts, but these are cunningly fashioned out of plant matter. Imagine a 33 ounce rib eye made of lawn clippings and you get the idea.

[David Scott]

18 hours ago, g33k said:

Does the Compact no longer make fundamental changes to both the Eater and to the Eaten?

If you look at the original texts, they aren't actually very clear on what the covenant actually is. It also doesn't say what the contest was and how it worked. The current edit has the covenant individually negotiated with Waha, the contest being a string pulling contest (Waha loves string - see HQG). This also allows other clans like the cannibal cult to fit in to the story. As the other major tribes weren't present at the Morokanth contest, of course they cheated. The contest was between Waha and the tribe. Other tribes negotiated other unique parts of the Covenant then as well. Clearly Waha and the other Praxian Gods are happy with the outcome or it wouldn't work.

Other reasons as to why the other tribes are unhappy with the Morokanth arrangement is the meat eating bit of the the herd men. Unless they feed captive herd men meat they don't thrive. So herd men are always first in the pot. As a knock on, they have low value in dowery price compared with other herd beasts - they don't keep well. Waha set up the raiding structure of the tribes to keep them lean and adapted to their environment - they have to raid the morokanth for food that is difficult to keep.

Another area of tension is the Morokanth ancestral grazing:

It sits in the "Only Some Guards Needed" band of the Devil's Marsh. The Close to the Goddess Grassland is nestled under the Eiritha Hills, it is a good position to catch chaos breakouts heading towards the Paps and Sacred Ground - Why should the Morokanth get all the glory!

[Noita]

Lots of Storm Bull and occasional Zorak Zoran Morokanth in my game. Bunch of hard cases the lot of them.

[Darius West]

I must dissent as well.  I have a lot of trouble reconciling Morokanth as vegetarians.  The whole point of Waha's contest was to determine who were the eaters and who were the eaten.  The humans mainly won and became the eaters.  Apparently it didn't matter that the morokanth won, because they still prefer eating plants?  FFS why do they even have a herd?

The notion of a large body of slave labor simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.  This model isn't economically viable on a physical anthropology basis.

Herd men are quite stupid and are of very little value as labor even when supervised, and lets face facts, as gathering food is the primary concern of most Praxian tribes, but who is gathering food for whom?  You have herd men munching on grass with their odd dentition (I remember reading that you could tell herd men by their big blunt teeth), and apparently the morokanth are right there with them competing with their own herd animals for the same grazing privileges.  The fact is that training an imbecile to feed you grass when you need to be out patrolling anyhow seems like wasted effort to me.  

The whole point of the success of nomadic existence is "meat on the hoof".  Meat on the hoof doesn't require refrigeration or careful storage to keep fresh.  If you keep meat on the hoof well watered and open to fresh pasture it grows in biomass...profit!  This was key to the success of the Mongol Empire.  A single steer can potentially provide 50 square feet worth of leather and enough meat to feed 1500-2000 people for one meal, and you can slaughter it in the field to keep it fresh.  If you have a large herd, you can potentially allow your animals to breed all year round and continuously refresh your herd numbers, and potentially keep a million plus warriors in the field fed from the surplus... provided you can pasture and water the herd... (in your enemy's crops for example, lol).  This simple fact is why successive waves of steppe nomads were able to swarm under the sedentary civilizations repeatedly, quite apart from their great mounted skills and warlike attitude.  It's all about logistics.

I think it is more plausible that the morokanth use the herd men as grass hoovers that are then converted into mock pork chops.  It makes the Morokanth scarier and more Praxian.

 

[Darius West]

Arbuk the Young Morokanth speaking to Burbull the Old Morokanth

Arbuk:  Say Burbull, how come we Morokanth have these herd men?

Burbull:  Obviously it's tradition Arbuk.

Arbuk:  But what are they for...  I mean  it isn't as if we ride them...

Burbull:  Well remember we Morokanth won the Competition of Waha, and now we are the herders of men.

Arbuk:  Yeah, but as far as men go, they're pretty crappy herd animals.  Can't we even try and ride a Sable or something?

Burbull: Sacrilege!  No!  You ride herd men or nothing!

Arbuk:  You don't really mean "ride" though do you.  I mean we sit in a litter while a dozen or so herd men carry us about slowly.  It isn't as if we can lance something from one of these now is it?  Hell, it's arguable if they are even stable enough for missile combat.

Burbull:  That's not the point!  Tradition!  Observe the Canon!  For shame!

Arbuk:  Are you sure we can't eat a few herd men?  Do we have to be vegetarians?

Burbull:  I myself have vegan superpowers gained on the Scott Pilgrim vs Aldrya Hero Quest.  No, you must remain a vegetarian if you want to be a good Waha worshipper or else you will lose your aura of moral superiority.  That's worth +3AP you know!

Arbuk:  But eating a vegetarian could be described as the epitome of a vegetarian diet.  Plus there is the disquieting angle of us eating humans the way they eat beasts.  It adds a whole new dimension to "meat is murder", especially if we laugh menacingly after we say it.  I mean we already eat a bit of herd men during some of our ceremonies.  C'mon, you know you want to.

Burbull:  No.  I won't hear of it.  Look at the Christian Eucharist, Arbuk.  Those humans eat a tiny piece of ritually prepared bread that embodies their deity.  It isn't as if bread is a staple part of the Christian diet, that would be blasphemy.

Arbuk:  Yeah, about that...

Burbull:  No, we herd men and we only eat plants.  All those old RQ2 jokes about morokanth and mock pork were just foolish and ignorant prejudice.  We Morokanth were never ret-conned into vegetarianism by a God Learner conspiracy to sell a surplus of Fonritan slave necklaces at premium in Prax.  Never happened!

Arbuk:  But come on Burbull, be honest now... Herd men simply aren't good for much are they?  If we train them to fight for us they are still effectively befuddled and might attack us, so we don't want them to get too skilled.  It isn't as if they can meaningfully forage for us, because do we really need someone handing grass to us?  We don't need them for agriculture because we don't farm, and they can't be trained as artisans because they are too stupid, and we can't eat the damn things.  Really all they are good for is carting us about on litters, and ransomey slavey value for the ones that have only recently been int fixed.  Apart from that, all they do is eat the grass we could be eating, the herd men are literally stealing the food from our childrens' mouths and we are allowing it.  

Burbull (eyes glazed over):  Yes and don't you forget it!

Edited February 7, 2017 by Darius West

[Steve]

On 31/01/2017 at 0:37 PM, David Scott said:

Other reasons as to why the other tribes are unhappy with the Morokanth arrangement is the meat eating bit of the the herd men. Unless they feed captive herd men meat they don't thrive. So herd men are always first in the pot.

 

So herd men are fed other herd men when necessary?

[David Scott]

23 minutes ago, Steve said:

So herd men are fed other herd men when necessary?

Likely if there is a glut of males or in an emergency you need to save your best breeding stock.

[Noita]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Likely if there is a glut of males or in an emergency you need to save your best breeding stock.

What stops the herd men from just eating each other when hungry?

[Steve]

40 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

What stops the herd men from just eating each other when hungry?

Same as any other carnivorous animal - their instinct won't be to start eating other fellow members of their species unless they are genuinely starving to death.

 

[Noita]

53 minutes ago, Steve said:

Same as any other carnivorous animal - their instinct won't be to start eating other fellow members of their species unless they are genuinely starving to death.

 

But they are getting fed their own meat. Seems like an easy feed when settling inter-herd rivalries.

[Steve]

13 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

But they are getting fed their own meat. Seems like an easy feed when settling inter-herd rivalries.

If I'm understanding David correctly, then when he said earlier " Morokanth raid and hunt for meat for the Herd men", I took that to mean that the Herd men won't normally be eating Herd man, they'll normally be eating bison, cows, or whatever it is that their Morokanth masters have raided. Only in dire need will they be fed Herd man.