Clan feuds and orlanthi law in Pavis County

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

I think this is an important point.  The City Harmony spell may have prevented the massacre of the Lunars and created the climate for an orderly surrender and transition of power

It didn't, they were massacred read the battle in KoS2ed p16:

Quote

All of the Lunars were executed 

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

The notion of Argrath presiding over an atrocity as his first military victory just doesn't sit right with his status as a hero

His previous victories include the Battle of Heroes, that was also a massacre. Harrek got to wear Jar-eel's heart as a necklace - KoS2ed p19:

Quote

When their leader was slain the rest of the Lunar Army routed, and were cut down when they ran. 

I think Argrath and the attackers are defended by powerful magics that the sorceries of Pavis cannot match.

It should be noted that Argrath isn't Mr. Nice Liberator. He's a rabid military genius hell bent on revenge on the Lunar Empire. 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The City Harmony spell was powerless to keep Praxians from wreaking havoc inside Old Pavis during the time of the Seventeen Foes of Waha.

I think generally you are right, however it's a localised spell so likely helped keep some of the refuges safe, especially the Real City.

 

 

 

[soltakss]

Argrath probably had Harrek helping him and I am fairly sure that Harrek laughs at a priest using City Harmony before sticking the priest's staff where the sun doesn't shine.

[Darius West]

On 6/30/2017 at 8:38 PM, David Scott said:

It didn't, they were massacred read the battle in KoS2ed p16:

His previous victories include the Battle of Heroes, that was also a massacre. Harrek got to wear Jar-eel's heart as a necklace - KoS2ed p19:

I think Argrath and the attackers are defended by powerful magics that the sorceries of Pavis cannot match.

It should be noted that Argrath isn't Mr. Nice Liberator. He's a rabid military genius hell bent on revenge on the Lunar Empire. 

I think generally you are right, however it's a localised spell so likely helped keep some of the refuges safe, especially the Real City.

5

It sounds like King of Sartar 2nd Edition is a substantial revision on the first edition which doesn't suggest a massacre, but a surrender of New Pavis after the deity Pavis rises to greet Argrath on the steps of the temple, and places the Battle of Heroes where Harrek gets Jar-Eel's heart much later in Argrath's reign in Sartar.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

first edition which doesn't suggest a massacre

It's implied in the Argrath of Pavis section which is in both editions: "None of Argrath’s people were harmed by the invaders, although some seemed to escape
only by chance, some required force of arms, and some needed all the wit they had."  The Praxians plundered for two days.  It's also where Argrath shows how he deals with assassins (i.e. kills them outright without trial).

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

places the Battle of Heroes where Harrek gets Jar-Eel's heart much later in Argrath's reign in Sartar

The first edition simply doesn't provide such dates.  2nd edition adds the dates into the footnotes.  Battle of Heroes is coming up in 1628.

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 6/30/2017 at 0:38 PM, David Scott said:

It should be noted that Argrath isn't Mr. Nice Liberator. He's a rabid military genius hell bent on revenge on the Lunar Empire. 

Argrath is a decidely unpleasant person, with absolutely no concern about the devastation the wreaks around him. The people he associates with, like Harrek and Sheng Seleris, are among the worst people in the world. He's one of the primary causes of breaking the world, and is in all likelihood responsible for more deaths than any other single person of the Third Age. It only because we see him through ridiculously biased sources that this isn't immediately obvious, and quite frankly he doesn't look too good even in them.

A world shaped in the image of Jar-Eel would have been vastly preferable to the one shaped by Argrath, Harrek and Sheng Seleris.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Akhôrahil

[Darius West]

On 7/5/2017 at 11:39 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Argrath is a decidely unpleasant person, with absolutely no concern about the devastation the wreaks around him. The people he associates with, like Harrek and Sheng Seleris, are among the worst people in the world. He's one of the primary causes of breaking the world, and is in all likelihood responsible for more deaths than any other single person of the Third Age. It only because we see him through ridiculously biased sources that this isn't immediately obvious, and quite frankly he doesn't look too good even in them.

A world shaped in the image of Jar-Eel would have been vastly preferable to the one shaped by Argrath, Harrek and Sheng Seleris.

So you favor Lunar Imperialism over Sartar's (and every nation they liberate's) right to self-determination?  You favor the use of chaos monsters as military tools and the untold thousands of people who are fed to the Crimson Bat every year simply to maintain it as a Lunar Military Asset? Has it never occurred to you that the destruction of the Lunar Empire is caused by trying to make the world over in the image of Jar-Eel?  Argrath is simply the world's equal and opposite reaction to a force applied.  The fact is that the Lunars made a lot of enemies with their relentless expansionism, and karma's a bitch.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

So you favor Lunar Imperialism over Sartar's (and every nation they liberate's) right to self-determination?  You favor the use of chaos monsters as military tools and the untold thousands of people who are fed to the Crimson Bat every year simply to maintain it as a Lunar Military Asset? Has it never occurred to you that the destruction of the Lunar Empire is caused by trying to make the world over in the image of Jar-Eel?  Argrath is simply the world's equal and opposite reaction to a force applied.  The fact is that the Lunars made a lot of enemies with their relentless expansionism, and karma's a bitch.

I think a lot of people would sympathize with liberating Sartar, especially after the Lunars misbehaved so spectacularly there (the Windstop, just for the worst atrocity). Everyone likes Kallyr, the chief architect of this. But Argrath is exactly as much of a ruthless, genocidal empire-builder as the worst of the Lunars, and without any of positive qualities of someone like Jar-Eel. In what world does placing Harrek (of all people!) as king of Sartar constitute "liberation" (doubly so as he had recently killed Kallyr)?

[soltakss]

In King of Sartar, Argrath rampages through Peloria, killing Lunars all the way. He brings back Sheng Seleris who rampages through the Lunar Empire, killing Lunars all the way, then kills the Red Emperror and becomes Emperor himself. Argrath and Sheng Seleris then fight each other, having exhausted other enemies. Then Argrath, or his Trickster, catches all the deities in the Net and slaughters them. This are the acts of someone like Arkat the Destroyer and result in the end of an age and the total destruction of many of the staples of Glorantha.

Harrek realy isn't anywhere near as bad as Argrath, in fact Harrek just ends up as Argrath's attack dog.

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by soltakss

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Harrek realy isn't anywhere near as bad as Argrath, in fact Harrek just ends up as Argrath's arrack dog.

Or you could say they are just two of the parts of Arkat (Destroyer and Liberator) that have returned.

[M Helsdon]

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 2:39 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Argrath is a decidely unpleasant person, with absolutely no concern about the devastation the wreaks around him.

Such is the nature of Heroes - they bring change and catastrophe.

[Darius West]

On 7/7/2017 at 9:32 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I think a lot of people would sympathize with liberating Sartar, especially after the Lunars misbehaved so spectacularly there (the Windstop, just for the worst atrocity). Everyone likes Kallyr, the chief architect of this. But Argrath is exactly as much of a ruthless, genocidal empire-builder as the worst of the Lunars, and without any of positive qualities of someone like Jar-Eel. In what world does placing Harrek (of all people!) as king of Sartar constitute "liberation" (doubly so as he had recently killed Kallyr)?

You sort of assume that Harrek would be a bad king.  Remember that Sartar is a barbarian kingdom that wants a warlord to lead it, and there are few greater warlords than Harrek.  Harrek is pretty much the Conan of the story, and Conan was pretty good king, much like when the barbarian Odovacer (aka Odoacer) first ruled over Rome.   As to killing Kallyr, what can I say?  Gingers have no POW stat and that means they're undead.

[Akhôrahil]

15 minutes ago, Darius West said:

You sort of assume that Harrek would be a bad king.  Remember that Sartar is a barbarian kingdom that wants a warlord to lead it, and there are few greater warlords than Harrek.  Harrek is pretty much the Conan of the story, and Conan was pretty good king, much like when the barbarian Odovacer (aka Odoacer) first ruled over Rome.   As to killing Kallyr, what can I say?  Gingers have no POW stat and that means they're undead.

1. I assume that Harrek would be a bad king, yes. Psycho-killers typically don't make great rulers.

2. The history of Sartar is (perhaps surprisingly) not to any large extent one about aggressive external wars. Sartar himself is a builder and a peace-maker. In fact, parts of King of Sartar can be read as a comparison between Sartar and Argrath, where Argrath comes out looking awful. Sartar solves the Telmori problem through diplomacy. Argrath solves the Telmori problem through wholesale genocide and butchering the corpses for magic. 

3. As a Vingan, Kallyr's hair is dyed, surely? While you're right about gingers, supposedly you don't lose your soul when you dye your hair red?

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

2. The history of Sartar is (perhaps surprisingly) not to any large extent one about aggressive external wars. Sartar himself is a builder and a peace-maker. In fact, parts of King of Sartar can be read as a comparison between Sartar and Argrath, where Argrath comes out looking awful. Sartar solves the Telmori problem through diplomacy. Argrath solves the Telmori problem through wholesale genocide and butchering the corpses for magic. 

Argrath is a PC ...

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Argrath is a PC ...

Say no more! That explains everything!

[Darius West]

On 7/9/2017 at 7:18 PM, Akhôrahil said:

1. I assume that Harrek would be a bad king, yes. Psycho-killers typically don't make great rulers.

2. The history of Sartar is (perhaps surprisingly) not to any large extent one about aggressive external wars. Sartar himself is a builder and a peace-maker. In fact, parts of King of Sartar can be read as a comparison between Sartar and Argrath, where Argrath comes out looking awful. Sartar solves the Telmori problem through diplomacy. Argrath solves the Telmori problem through wholesale genocide and butchering the corpses for magic. 

3. As a Vingan, Kallyr's hair is dyed, surely? While you're right about gingers, supposedly you don't lose your soul when you dye your hair red?

1.  Why do you assume that Harrek the Berserk is merely a psycho-killer?  He has traveled the world, even the Lunar Empire, he has led the most effective band of reavers in the world, he must have learned a thing or two.  You should also remember that he will be leading Sartar during a time of war, which is his specialty, and he defers to Argrath in many matters, which should smooth many problems out.  Besides, Gunda likes him.

2.  Why didn't the Telmori solve their Maboder problem with diplomacy?  This is just straight up karma. Genocide for genocide. Tit for tat.  Besides, Telmori are basically chaos creatures.

3.  Given Kallyr's awful luck (you get that from really low to non-existent POW) I am going to assume she is not a Djinn-ger (Ginger from a bottle), but the real thing.  Stand warned, when you dye your hair red you bottle your soul btw

[Darius West]

On 7/10/2017 at 3:15 AM, soltakss said:

Argrath is a PC ...

Really?  Who plays him?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Why do you assume that Harrek the Berserk is merely a psycho-killer?  He has traveled the world, even the Lunar Empire, he has led the most effective band of reavers in the world, he must have learned a thing or two. 

Well, as Belintar noted (in Prince of Sartar), Harrek is the Destroyer.  However, he also conquers the Pujaleg bat people and rules the Kingdom of Laskal.  It's unknown what his rule is like there (or if he ever really rules there since he seems to be largely gone from there).  His epics seem to mirror the destruction wrought first by Shargash (another Destroyer) and then by Arkat the Destroyer.  We do know he goes crazy after Gunda is killed.  And we do know that he takes Jar-eel's heart.  But he largely disappears from the known picture after the latter event.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Telmori are basically chaos creatures

Only after Talor's curse (or perhaps Gbaji's 'gifts') - I think otherwise they are simply among the Hsunchen tribes of the Dawn (though I may be forgetting some reference).  There may well be an epic to free them from the curse during the Hero Wars that we know nothing about yet.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Really?  Who plays him?

Greg.

Why else d'you think Glorantha keeps changing...

[Joerg]

49 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Well, as Belintar noted (in Prince of Sartar), Harrek is the Destroyer.  However, he also conquers the Pujaleg bat people and rules the Kingdom of Laskal.  It's unknown what his rule is like there (or if he ever really rules there since he seems to be largely gone from there).  His epics seem to mirror the destruction wrought first by Shargash (another Destroyer) and then by Arkat the Destroyer.  We do know he goes crazy after Gunda is killed.  And we do know that he takes Jar-eel's heart.  But he largely disappears from the known picture after the latter event.

Despite having been told not to read forward, I had a look at the Fonrit places, and I have come to the conclusion that pulling the Pujaleg kalkus who demand significant amounts of human sacrifice from ruling parts of Banamba and replacing the Eunuch Priest of Ikadz as ruler of Goan (also relying on Pujaleg mercenary guards), nothing the Wolf Pirates can do for drunken fun can be any worse than the current regime, not even a full-fledged rage of the bear god.

So, to the majority of the people in Laskal, Harrek is a volatile but distant ruler whose activities have freed them from the ongoing predation by vile Pujaleg rites. While the Masarins may be moaning about their comforts being taken by those uncouth foreigners, many of them had been suffering from the reigns of the kalku worse than that. On the whole, Harrek's reign over Goan and the huge territory of Banamba (easily the size of Kethaela and Maniria outside of Ramalia combined, and a population the size of the Lunar Provinces) can be seen as benevolent just by comparing to the previous regime if he doesn't do anything but punish anyone taking something away from his possession.

Having a population of better than a million people at his beck from whichever palace in Goan he might decide to grace with his destructive presence is a good way to spend time between plundering the surrounding lands. A raider's paradise, especially when comparing to his previous abode on the Threestep Isles.

[Darius West]

On 7/7/2017 at 9:32 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Everyone likes Kallyr, 

Not me.  Kallyr loses way more often than she wins and keeps dragging my clan into trouble.  Even her victories seem more like defeats.  As a general she makes a good sergeant.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Not me.  Kallyr loses way more often than she wins and keeps dragging my clan into trouble.  Even her victories seem more like defeats.

You only like winners?!

In that case, definitely go with Argrath, he can’t ever lose more than temporarily before inevitably triumphing again...

Edited December 25, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Not me.  Kallyr loses way more often than she wins and keeps dragging my clan into trouble.  Even her victories seem more like defeats.  As a general she makes a good sergeant.

Damn Darius, this is necromancy on the order of Delicti. Well done!

[Darius West]

On 12/25/2020 at 12:52 PM, Akhôrahil said:

You only like winners?!

In that case, definitely go with Argrath, he can’t ever lose more than temporarily before inevitably triumphing again...

Argrath has a pretty good record on the win/loss scale, and yes, I like commanders who win, and I don't see any reason to apologize for that.  Kallyr kept doing the same things over and over again expecting a different outcome.  Argrath is offering new and better answers to the same problems that have been dogging the Orlanthi for centuries when it comes to the Lunars.  The Sartarite Magical Union is just one of his reforms.  The Sartarites have repeatedly shown that their warriors are as good or better than the Lunars.  Sartarite leadership has lacked much vision of how to actually do more than defend.  Even their 1602 stab at the Tarsh Reaching Moon temple was more of a defensive measure than a true military offensive with plans to keep going.  The real problem of the Sartarites has been their lack of coordinated magical support, and their pitiful supply of troops.  With the resources of Prax and the Holy Country, the logistics and finance expertise of the Goldgotti, the Sartarite Magical Union, those Western Cataphract Mercenaries, and the awesome Wolf Pirates, Sartar finally has a King who can drive off the Lunars and potentially liberate their conquered peoples.  That is what his name means after all.  It's nice to breathe free air again.  Kallyr certainly played her part, but you won't see Argrath getting shanked on a hillside by Lunar Assassins.  Ask Gimgim's ghost.