The Dream World and dream magic

[davecake]

Anyone ever run a game that included East Isles dream magic?

I'm very interested in both ideas of what can be achieved with Dream magic, and how the dream world is experienced.

Is it simply like the experience of dreaming? Or is it an otherworld of its own, perhaps like the Dreaming in Sandman comics, with amorphous and unworldly geography of its own? Or perhaps it even has stable geography of its own, like Lovecrafts Dreamlands, perhaps the remnants of the Empire of Avanapdur? 

I see it as possibly all of these, inhabited by dream wraiths and spectres and other antigod illusionary beings. 

What does dream magic do? Obviously it may allow you to manipulate your own dreams, probably the dreams of others. Some dream magic can be brought back into the waking world, perhaps as Illusions? 

Is dream magic a new form of magic? Or a variant of one of the other forms of magic? Or simply a type of effect, that can be achieved with any form of magic? 

[metcalph]

Personally I would junk the Short Worlds theory that comes up in the Hero Wars period.  Dream magicians would interact with the same sources of magic as ordinary magic.  Revealed Mythologies has a series of myth illustrating the various schools of dream magic and their relationship to Thella.  If you can make sense of that, you are one up on me, because I found the myths too vague to gather much useful detail.  

For example, a dream magician spends his sleep in the heroplane where he tries to make sense of the places that he has seen.  The type of magic depends on the dreams that he has.  Terrible magics are gained through having Nightmares in the Great Darkness for example.

The dreaming magician generally starts of with a mantra to reach a specific dreaming point - the origin point for his school. From there on he navigates the heroplane/dream world intending to understand its mysteries.  Most dreamers roam the Storm Age of the Eastern Isles while others travel the Great Darkness or Golden Age.

A common practice among dreaming magicians is to become closer to the gods at specific points.  This confers Rune Magic.  

Another type of dream magic practice might be to turn dreams into dream-wraiths through dream-catchers.  The wraiths would be treated as spirits and their powers dependent on the type of dream the magician was having at the time.  The wraiths could be use to affect visible friends or enemies or harass/bless distant enemies and friends in their sleep.

Finally there's the attempt to manifest dreams in the waking world.  I would handle these as spells. 

To create a motivation for some dreamers to interact with the mortal world, they often try dreaming in different places to see if they can find something new.  

I generally would handle the learning of new dream magic as a general improvement rather than an actual adventure (to avoid non-dreamers being left out).  One could have dreamers sharing their dreams with non-dreamers as a quest of some sort but I don't see this as a common occurrence (ie it's not something that I'd see the PCs doing every adventuring session).

 

 

[soltakss]

We have a magical skill Dreaming in our campaign that allows the user to manipulate dreams, either their own or the dreams of others. It is very fre-form in nature and acts as something that enables PCs to do things.

The PC with Dreaming has used it to pass messages to far-away followers, enter Tada's mind before he was brought back (Sleeping under Tada's High Tumulus), enter the Dragonewt Dream, counter a Lunar Dream-Mage and more.

If you use it as a freeform ability it works really well. If you put lots of restrictions around it then it doesn't do much at all.

[Joerg]

I regard Dream Magic as creating a temporary reality that may be reinforced by adding others' dreaming to that reality.

While the concept of short worlds may be irrelevant, dream realms (which could be otherworlds or magically altered parts of the real world) are reliant on the principal dreamers. There are probably strong parallels between dream magic and Lunar glamours, although the Lunars appear to have created a path to the Ultimate through the bottom of annihilation. Avanapdur, Queen of the Iradgenderi of the East did not pass that final test, and disappeared back into the realm of Transience.

Oren Parond, one of the emanations of Mashunasan, took pity on the desolation left after the (apparently quite benevolent) reign of the dreams left them with only their bleaker reality, and took over the dream realms not to give them permance or manifestation in the real world but to make visiting it pleasurable. In that role, Oren Parond became Thella, the goddess of dreams.

Dream Magic would be what was created when the joint sacrifices of many people to the Ultimate summoned Avanapdur from the realm of Transience into reality.

 

Central Genertela has a name and a core rune for transient reality: Illusion. Manifested dreams may be illusion. Manifestations from more powerful entities practicing mysticism (like ruler or inhuman king dragonewts, true dragons, or great sages) may take on more permanence.

For mortals (or transient beings independent of mortal motivation, like the Iradgenderi) to manifest the transient in reality it either takes a direct and powerful connection to the illusion rune or the collective indulgence in a certain form of transient reality.

 

Mashunasan offered the doors of truth and transience as a challenge to Avanapdur. The door of transience allowed Avanapdur and later Oren Parond to enter the realm of transience.

Compare with entering the realm of the myths - the hero plane - which is a realm of permanence, although it can be altered. Alteration in the realm of myths has repercussions to the world of the quester.

Alteration of the realm of dreams affects only the dreamer and those sharing his/her dream. Given enough support, the dream reality may manifest in the real world, and affect it.

 

The dream world doesn't necessarily reflect the real world (the way this was described and exploited in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series) - that seems to be more a property of the spirit world of Glorantha. Still, the text e.g. about the Keet sage Ezel indicates that pieces of dream reality used to be attached to physical reality, shared by all those living in the neighborhood, and could be visited without passing any barriers - at least until unrealized by someone who had been in contact with the Ultimate.

Again, this is similar to the Illusion magic of the Puppeteers in the Dragon Pass boardgame - close encounters with (hostile only?) dragons or superheroes eliminate the illusionary armies.

 

This has become an unexpectedly politically loaded topic when alternate truths or realities clash with the observable world, and override it. Perhaps the persistence of climate change denial, white superiority etc. and the way it is imposed on even those parts of the population decrying these as not real is how dream magic works.

[Pentallion]

On 2/28/2017 at 11:56 PM, metcalph said:

I generally would handle the learning of new dream magic as a general improvement rather than an actual adventure (to avoid non-dreamers being left out).  One could have dreamers sharing their dreams with non-dreamers as a quest of some sort but I don't see this as a common occurrence (ie it's not something that I'd see the PCs doing every adventuring session).

 

 

I prefer the dreams and what's gained to be told as a meaningful part of the story and setting.  Therefore, I'd invent Dreaming Bands, much like Hero Bands in Genertela.  These Bands go on DreamQuests together (unlike the solo adventure).  They could either purposefully do so at the temples as part of their mystical training, or they could be drawn into them at mystical sites of the GM's whim.  the thing is, it would be like a Hero Quest so of course it's something the party does together.

Dreaming Bands would be as common there as Hero Bands in Genertela.

[Joerg]

47 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

I prefer the dreams and what's gained to be told as a meaningful part of the story and setting.  Therefore, I'd invent Dreaming Bands, much like Hero Bands in Genertela.  These Bands go on DreamQuests together (unlike the solo adventure).  They could either purposefully do so at the temples as part of their mystical training, or they could be drawn into them at mystical sites of the GM's whim.  the thing is, it would be like a Hero Quest so of course it's something the party does together.

Dreaming Bands would be as common there as Hero Bands in Genertela.

One of the telling points of the Dream World is that you can force it to obey your whims at much lower resistance than anything in the real world or the Hero Planes.

 

Creating something stable and durable in the dream world might takes some discipline, but generally I would let wannabe mystics expose themselves to more real obstacles in the worlds of myth rather than in the rather easily banished world of seemings. Probably nice for an introductory course of refutation. The reign of Avanapdur was so hard to overcome (for everyone except Mashunasan) because it was powered by massive sacrifice from the greater part of the Eastern population.

 

[Pentallion]

I don't see dreams as being about refutation or banishing what seems to be.  I see dreams as working out problems the mind is dwelling on.  In Glorantha, that would be the equivalent of working out the reason for a myth to begin with.  Why is the sky blue?  Because Lorian invaded the sky dome.  Okay, in the dream world, the mythological "mind" of Glorantha, that which asks "why is the sky blue?" is trying to work this all out.  Why is Lorian invading the sky dome the proper solution and not something else?  All these failed myths that don't replace the actual myth are the ones being tried on for size and found wanting in the dream world.  But such dream magics can inform and sometimes even reshape the mythic realm.  One might argue they're the birthing place of myths.  And now that Time exists, the birthing place of future myths.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Pentallion

[Darius West]

It is interesting that I can't think of a Gloranthan deity of sleep, and only Adlanari of Vithela seems to cover dreams.

Sleep... Man, Life, Stasis?

Dream... Man, illusion?

Why does everyone sleep in Glorantha?  Some sort of bear cult magic?

Edited March 11, 2017 by Darius West

[Joerg]

"She is not dead, only sleeping" - Greater Darkness mantra of the Ernaldans, shared by the aldryami. I guess this makes Ernalda a prime candidate for a deity for sleep.

Sleep is part of the human condition, and there probably is a Green Age myth about it, just as about breathing, eating and drinking.

On 9.3.2017 at 5:31 PM, Pentallion said:

I don't see dreams as being about refutation or banishing what seems to be. 

Dreams aren't about refutation. Mysticism is - and the reply was a reaction to the suggestion that mystics would train in the dream world rather than the hero planes and beyond.

The Eastern myths about Avanapdur (king or queen of nightmares) and the Iradgenderi stress their temporary nature. The reign of Avanapdur in the real world resulted from an almost God Learner-like experiment to worship the Ultimate directly rather than using a mystic's path to approach it individually, and it wasn't what it was adverted to be.

 

On 9.3.2017 at 5:31 PM, Pentallion said:

I see dreams as working out problems the mind is dwelling on. 

That's pretty close to the mundane explanation of dreams, which has also been dubbed "the garbage collection of the brain" (garbage collection in the IT sense).

This definition doesn't cover nightmares (which aren't working out anything) or prophetic dreams.

King of Sartar offers another kind of dream magic in the Argrath of Pavis piece, giving the other name of that character - Bad Dream Enostar.

 

On 9.3.2017 at 5:31 PM, Pentallion said:

In Glorantha, that would be the equivalent of working out the reason for a myth to begin with.  Why is the sky blue?  Because Lorian invaded the sky dome.  Okay, in the dream world, the mythological "mind" of Glorantha, that which asks "why is the sky blue?" is trying to work this all out.  Why is Lorian invading the sky dome the proper solution and not something else?  All these failed myths that don't replace the actual myth are the ones being tried on for size and found wanting in the dream world.  But such dream magics can inform and sometimes even reshape the mythic realm.  One might argue they're the birthing place of myths.  And now that Time exists, the birthing place of future myths.

Dreams as a way to gain deep insights? The eastern myth offers that as one possible outcome after Oren Parond takes over as guardian of the dreams.

I don't see puzzling over Gloranthan myth as a common or even rare subject of dreams in Glorantha.

Recurring dreams (or at least fatigue-induced dream-like states) of mine had me visiting and exploring places between real places I regularly traveled. I found this remarkably similar to the practice of the people of Garonadring who complained to Ezel Balurenesh that everything had turned bad since they could not access the dream place of the Green Island to feed since Sed Parad taught them the difference between solid reality and dream manifestations (Revealed Mythologies p.90).

I think that the draconic reality emanating from Dragon Pass which brought about the strange grains that wouldn't keep outside of the collective emanation of the draconic worshippers was a similar state.

Draconic dreams produce tangible (if temporary) reality. The nature of Dream Dragons is discussed in the Sartar Campaign for Heroquest. That's what I see as Gloranthan dream magic - pulling things or entities from dreams into the real world.

"Inception"-like invasion of people's dreams or just sending troubling dreams to someone is magic affecting dreams, but not magic powered by dreaming.

[metcalph]

53 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Dreams aren't about refutation. Mysticism is - and the reply was a reaction to the suggestion that mystics would train in the dream world rather than the hero planes and beyond.

I would refrain from using Hero Wars terminology as an absolute guide to mysticism.  A better definition of mysticism might be an "an inward betterment of the soul" and contrast it with the use of magic for material displays of power.  A gloranthan mystic wouldn't be concerned with using magic (whether in the form of spells, affinities or spirits) to improve his soul.  As far back as Gods of Glorantha, Dayzatar's rune spells were costly and seem silly for this reason.  

[Joerg]

Just now, metcalph said:

I would refrain from using Hero Wars terminology as an absolute guide to mysticism.  A better definition of mysticism might be an "an inward betterment of the soul" and contrast it with the use of magic for material displays of power.  A gloranthan mystic wouldn't be concerned with using magic (whether in the form of spells, affinities or spirits) to improve his soul.  As far back as Gods of Glorantha, Dayzatar's rune spells were costly and seem silly for this reason.  

I attempted to clear up my use of the word in connection with dreams in the earlier post referred to by Pentallion.

Refutation is a technique of the sages to advance the progression of the mystic out of the entanglements of the world. There are other techniques and ways, up to sudden exposure to the Ultimate.

I won't try and tackle an exploration of mysticism in this thread about dreams, other than that exposure to the Ultimate will disperse or banish something as inconsequential as manifestations of dreams, or other temporary reality like the Puppeteers' illusions.

 

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

"She is not dead, only sleeping" - Greater Darkness mantra of the Ernaldans, shared by the aldryami. I guess this makes Ernalda a prime candidate for a deity for sleep.

Tada is asleep near the Sleeping City Hills. In my current campaign, one of the NPCs was a Dream-Tada, projected by Tada to interact with the world. Almost like a Dream Dragon, but not quite.