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David Scott

The Pavis Plan

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19 hours ago, mikkling said:

I am a bit annoyed that we know next to nothing about what the Pavis/Flintnail/Ginkizzie cult is up to -- or Lord Pavis' motivations and plans. We know he built an extravagant city, but why? He retires into his crystal tomb [stasis chamber?] -- why? He was a master of the Man rune -- he crossbred mostali and human (Ginkizzie -- still alive), himself a half-elf. He was a magus from the EWF, aided by mostali -- there has to be something more to it: a grand plan or mytho-magical experiment. Perhaps his plans and his priesthood was simply upset/stymied/put on hold by Jaldon and his nomads, and then by trolls. Has his plan been irrevocably lost, himself a tragic failure, with the surviving priesthood simply clinging on to meaningless traditions? Or is Pavis still alive/not dead/undead, and the priesthood remember the secrets and still try to realise the plan? Or is Ginkizzie, the grandson of Pavis, the real mastermind, mover, and shaker of Pavis' plan?

I thought that @mikkling's post would form the basis for an interesting discussion...

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@mikkling asked:

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

We know he built an extravagant city, but why?

As a friend of the EWF, and an accomplished magician, I believe Pavis was creating a giant crucible to contain his experiments. He utilised what was already there and with the faceless statue, expanded upon it. I'm not sure the result was intended to be a great city, it just ended up that way. It was a great container that naturally got filled as it was well defended. With more people came more magical power.

5 minutes ago, David Scott said:

He retires into his crystal tomb [stasis chamber?] -- why?

He didn't realise that the closer you get to godhood, the more limited your actions. To maintain himself and his power he had to leave the Middle World. He didn't quite achieve what he set out to do and so is trapped as a demigod in his own Gods World.

7 minutes ago, David Scott said:

He was a master of the Man rune -- he crossbred mostali and human (Ginkizzie -- still alive), himself a half-elf. He was a magus from the EWF, aided by mostali -- there has to be something more to it: a grand plan or mytho-magical experiment. 

I think that he was striving to be the Man Rune, Grandfather Mortal himself. This was the least difficult of the paths of becoming a god as he was humanoid. Ultimately he failed and got stuck. Maybe the nomads had something to do with it, but I don't think so.

10 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Has his plan been irrevocably lost, himself a tragic failure, with the surviving priesthood simply clinging on to meaningless traditions?

Yes.

11 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Or is Ginkizzie, the grandson of Pavis, the real mastermind, mover, and shaker of Pavis' plan?

Ginkizzie likely understands the failure and strives not to become entrapped in the original plan. That leave him with little to do other than maintain what is there.

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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I am a bit annoyed that we know next to nothing about what the Pavis/Flintnail/Ginkizzie cult is up to -- or Lord Pavis' motivations and plans. We know he built an extravagant city, but why? He retires into his crystal tomb [stasis chamber?] -- why? He was a master of the Man rune -- he crossbred mostali and human (Ginkizzie -- still alive), himself a half-elf. He was a magus from the EWF, aided by mostali -- there has to be something more to it: a grand plan or mytho-magical experiment. Perhaps his plans and his priesthood was simply upset/stymied/put on hold by Jaldon and his nomads, and then by trolls. Has his plan been irrevocably lost, himself a tragic failure, with the surviving priesthood simply clinging on to meaningless traditions? Or is Pavis still alive/not dead/undead, and the priesthood remember the secrets and still try to realise the plan? Or is Ginkizzie, the grandson of Pavis, the real mastermind, mover, and shaker of Pavis' plan?

I thought that @mikkling's post would form the basis for an interesting discussion...

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I am a bit annoyed that we know next to nothing about what the Pavis/Flintnail/Ginkizzie cult is up to -- or Lord Pavis' motivations and plans.

On the other hand each GM has free reign to make as big a conspiracy or cock up of the Pavis temple as they please. 

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We know he built an extravagant city, but why?

He needed backers to contribute to his plan, his backers need their own backers etc and they all needed lodging and feeding

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He retires into his crystal tomb [stasis chamber?] -- why?

He had done as much as he could as a semi-mortal, and would have risked more by sticking around subject of injury or aging in the mundane world than his continued guidance of the plan was worth to him. His plan may always have envisaged a longer timescale than a typical 'since time began' lifespan

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He was a master of the Man rune -- he crossbred mostali and human (Ginkizzie -- still alive), himself a half-elf. He was a magus from the EWF, aided by mostali -- there has to be something more to it: a grand plan or mytho-magical experiment.

There absolutely does. Why has he chosen as out of the way a place as the River of Cradles to do it? Perhaps because there is a bit of a void in the Land god department around Genert's Wastes, and he can take some of degree that ground to help do whatever he planned to do.

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Perhaps his plans and his priesthood was simply upset/stymied/put on hold by Jaldon and his nomads, and then by trolls.

They certainly won't have been happy about either. He will have lost some juice with the fall of the EWF draconic magic schemes too. The City has not been obliterated though, and some of his backers e.g. the Dragonnewts (in their Dance) still seem to treat the site as an on-going project. It is not impossible that the action towards fulfilling his plan has largely moved from the Mundane plane to some other place. This is not to say that it will not re-emerge in Prax at some future date.

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Has his plan been irrevocably lost, himself a tragic failure, with the surviving priesthood simply clinging on to meaningless traditions?

Maybe, maybe not, maybe it's not going to do quite what he meant it to but it's still going to do something significant. Why do the Daughters of Pavis maintain their EWF style of dress, they must have been told it enough times that makes them look weird and old fashioned and puts off young people, what's the attraction to them in refusing to adapt it?

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Or is Pavis still alive/not dead/undead,

Clearly he is alive as a god or a senior sorcerer - he dolls out a few small elementals to his priests, as well as providing his City Harmony spell.

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and the priesthood remember the secrets and still try to realise the plan?

 Depends on your assessment of Ginkizzie and the feasibility of the plan, or the revised fallback plan following the changes in the EWF / Nomad / Troll / Giant developments. Ginkizzie is the longest standing of the Priests, he pulls the strings in the temple and the Real City, and has his backers on the New Pavis councils.

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Or is Ginkizzie, the grandson of Pavis, the real mastermind, mover, and shaker of Pavis' plan?

Mostly, though like a lot of family firm inheritors he may not be keeping entirely to the original vision of the founders. He will be faced with having to make unexpected compromises in some areas to prioritise others within the limits of current resources.

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2 hours ago, David Scott said:

 

I think that he was striving to be the Man Rune, Grandfather Mortal himself. This was the least difficult of the paths of becoming a god as he was humanoid. Ultimately he failed and got stuck. Maybe the nomads had something to do with it, but I don't think so.

It is notable that Pavis did not successfully integrate a troll population into his city (due to their alliance with Paragua?) This might seem seem to make it difficult to command the whole Man Rune unless Pavis had already got what he needed from the trolls (his daughters?) before animating the Stone Statue in Shadows Dance. 

Then there are the  merfolk too of course amongs the other man rune exemplars...

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1 hour ago, Byll said:

It is notable that Pavis did not successfully integrate a troll population into his city (due to their alliance with Paragua?) This might seem seem to make it difficult to command the whole Man Rune unless Pavis had already got what he needed from the trolls (his daughters?) before animating the Stone Statue in Shadows Dance. 

Then there are the  merfolk too of course amongs the other man rune exemplars...

I think he was doing it the other way round. By becoming the pure rune before it was combined with Darkness for trolls, water for menfolk, etc would give him total control.

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42 minutes ago, David Scott said:

By becoming the pure rune before it was combined with Darkness for trolls, water for menfolk, etc would give him total control.

Clearly this is all a dwarf plot.  For the World Machine to become complete, they needed to recreate the Man Rune unsullied by the elements or by Death.  Pavis was their tool, and thought he was gaining great access to magical powers and ultimately Godhood.  Instead, the Mostali have trapped him in a Stasis crystal for that point when the Celestial Court is reassembled and the pure Form rune can be unveiled again.

Pavis realizes he is trapped, held and bound by the dwarfs.  But he cannot directly communicate this to his followers as the dwarfs carefully monitor interaction with him.  He must find a way to indirectly lead his followers (perhaps the incarnation or wielder of Balastor's Axe) to Kill Pavis.  And that act will free Pavis again to follow the path of Grandfather Mortal and truly embody the Man Rune.

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Good ideas all around!

I like the idea of Pavis as a tragic failure, and his priesthood a pointless remnant of his shortcomings. Well, he is/was not a complete failure; he did do some extraordinary things, even though he might not have been as successful a hero as he wanted. Actually, if we assume that Pavis' plan was simply to found a city, he succeeded quite spectacularly, although that seems a rather low-key ambition for such a powerful man. 

I also like the Mostali plot (we all know they are the real puppet masters). The very fact that Ginkizzie has remained in a ruined city for 600-700 years indicates that he has something keeping him there (hope/the Plan). Or, he could simply have nowhere else to go -- a half-mostali elf-human abomination might not be particularly welcome with the dwarfs. But to counter that point, he *is* half-mostali -- and half a mostali might be better than no mostali in the eyes of lesser dwarfs, given that full mostali are hard to come by these days. 

Another thing that strikes me as odd is that none of Pavis' daughters make a name for themselves; none of them founds a dynasty and there is no mention of descendants. They are laconically dismissed as "unsuited to rule". They "began the cult of Pavis" and then disappear from history. Though, I note that Ginkizzie also did/does not (overtly) hold secular power. Given Pavis' Man rune mastery, he should have had little problem producing puissant progeny, and so their lack of secular strength seems to have been intentional on his side. Perhaps he wanted faithful servants rather than heroes with ideas of their own?

Whether or not his Plan is to become or create the Original Man, it stands to reason that he was playing a quite long game -- he must have needed his cult to amass power; he did nothing noticeable for 80 years after retiring to his crystal sanctuary until Jaldon came and messed things up. Of course, fighting Thog probably drained a bit of power as well. That also means that Pavis might very well still be playing his game. Why would he need the Flintnail cult? One answer that comes to mind is that Pavis needed Ginkizzie to maintain (and, now, repair) the magical circle/diagram Pavis inscribed using the Faceless Statue before it collapsed -- the magical infrastructure needed to channel/contain/Harmonize the power from the city's inhabitants and/or the place of Power on Ogre Island, the very centre of the circle. P:GtA says that "centuries of warfare and magic have left a twisted and warped ruin of a city. Ancient and incomprehensible magics are at work here. Repeated attempts to study the mysteries of the Rubble have ended in frustration and failure, including the recent attempts of the Lunar Magicians. As Ginkizzie once remarked to a Lunar scholar after reading his treatise concerning the Rubble, 'You know very little, and everything you know is wrong'." 

It might be the case that once the nomads wreck the circle, the God Learner descendants on the Island start getting slowly corrupted by the Power there (Robcradle was smashed before the effect became noticeable). By 1200 ST, they are consorting with demons, and a Chaos Market has appeared. By 1500, the residents are a tribe of ogres.

 

 

 

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58 minutes ago, mikkling said:

including the recent attempts of the Lunar Magicians

The planned marriage of Pavis to the Red Moon was simultaneously an effort to produce the Moon Men as well as to liberate Pavis from his entrapment by the dwarves and allow Pavis to fully incarnate Grandfather Mortal.  Once the dwarfs figured it out, they set out to bring the Lunar regime to an end.

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10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The planned marriage of Pavis to the Red Moon was simultaneously an effort to produce the Moon Men as well as to liberate Pavis from his entrapment by the dwarves and allow Pavis to fully incarnate Grandfather Mortal.  Once the dwarfs figured it out, they set out to bring the Lunar regime to an end.

Marrying Pavis to the Red Moon is the official story, and I'm sure most of the straight Lunars believe it, but there seems to be a lack of urgency to the project. Nothing happens on this front between 1610 and 1625 when Argrath White Bull liberates the city. And the cult of Pavis wasn't exactly eager to make it happen -- instead, they were stalling. Thus, I don't really see a conflict between Ginkizzie and the priests of Pavis -- Ginkizzie has had centuries to make sure that the Pavis priests are faithful supporters or at least not harmful to the plan. If we assume that there is a Gbaji conspiracy among the lunars, I don't think they care much about Pavis -- they want control over Cacodemon's birthplace, and access to the Eye of Wakboth (now that they have learned of its existence). And thus neither the Lunars or the Pavisites invested much into the marriage. 

I don't doubt that the dwarfs are pulling the strings, but I think Pavis is a willing partner in their plan (as far as he knows the plan). It seems Pavis retired to his crystal palace quite voluntarily -- Flintnail had already left, Ginkizzie was only about 30 years old, and I doubt that the remaining dwarfs were powerful enough to be able to command Pavis. 

I wonder if the Plan requires Pavis to remain mortal (Grandfather Mortal's defining trait). That would explain why he has been pottering about in his stasis chamber instead of gaining immortality, like a proper superhero/godling. I also note that P:GtA portrays the cult of Pavis as strictly sorcerous -- and allied with the materialist-atheist-sorcerous dwarfs. Is there an anti-theist materialist-humanist agenda to Pavis' Plan -- the Man rune as secular-civilized humanism? Both elves and trolls have been present a long time, but there is no mention of Pavis/Flintnail attempts of diplomacy, treaties or alliance with them. But God Learners were evidently welcome, given that they were given a settlement in the city.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, mikkling said:

but there seems to be a lack of urgency to the project. Nothing happens on this front between 1610 and 1625 when Argrath White Bull liberates the city. And the cult of Pavis wasn't exactly eager to make it happen -- instead, they were stalling.

Pavis marrying the Red Goddess is a complex idea, Pavis cult write-ups say:

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Even under the Lunar Occupation, the Pavis Cult has continued to grow. The Goddess wants to “marry” Pavis to add him to her ever-growing Pantheon, and he plays very hard-to-get. With the support of the invaders, open worship of Pavis has increased, especially among those Orlanth worshippers needing somewhere to go after the closing of the Orlanth Temple by the Empire. 

This looks complex. Firstly adding someone to the Lunar Pantheon makes them a Lunar Immortal, not a god. They get a place on the moon, etc. I would imagine that city gods are normally married to a living Lunar Demigod, for ease, then they are associated but not a Lunar immortal. This marriage seems to be a whole new thing. It looks like getting access to magic - 2nd Age Pavis magic. Pavis it seems doesn't have many worshippers - about 900 (PavisGtA page 173) That's not many to power Pavis, get him out of his home and off to the moon. It's likely they are just after a child from the union which will make it easier. That will mean the High Priest of Pavis standing in for Pavis marrying a Lunar Priestess. Benderri is likely considered too old, Cyrilius Harmonius is the obvious candidate, but number 2, Fleeter Nemm likely opposes him. As for the Lunars, there is a Red Goddess temple in Pavis with 20 initiates, with Tala Errio already there for the marriage. With the New Lunar Temple nearby and the real place of operation being the Real Temple in the Rubble, there are not enough resources to go around. I would imagine that initially the marriage of Pavis to a demigod was the first step posited at the 1610 invasion, but when it was realised what was available and requests were put in for a marriage to the Goddess. So a temple had to be built etc. I'd say 5 years to get to that stage, and a start to increase the number of Pavis initiates in that time brings us to 1615. Then the work starts.

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2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Pavis marrying the Red Goddess is a complex idea [...] 

There are not enough resources to go around. I would imagine that initially the marriage of Pavis to a demigod was the first step posited at the 1610 invasion, but when it was realised what was available and requests were put in for a marriage to the Goddess. So a temple had to be built etc. I'd say 5 years to get to that stage, and a start to increase the number of Pavis initiates in that time brings us to 1615. Then the work starts.

Still, 15+ years seems a long time, unless they are awaiting a particularly auspicious date. Also, I don't think the Lunars care a lot about (boosting) the power of Pavis; it's not as if he is going to be a great asset to the Empire. I think they primarily want to pacify/lunarise the city and, as a bonus, gain access to Pavis' EWF magics. Thus, I think the time it takes is a rather precise measure of how unimportant the matter is to the Provincial Army. If they believed it was a matter of great importance and urgency, they would have poured more resources into the project.

 

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8 minutes ago, mikkling said:

If they believed it was a matter of great importance and urgency, they would have poured more resources into the project.

I totally agree, there's the new temple of the reaching moon just down the road to finish first. With that operational, sorting out Pavis will be easy. 

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I was of the belief that there were some very Green Age notions going on with Pavis that grew out of his elf/human parentage and that's why he chose that site.  It goes back to the Giant's cradles, that giants built the walls and the link between Genert and the Green Age, etc.

I'm really surprised none of that is being discussed in this thread.  What about what's really going on in Mani's Fort?  How does that relate to all this?

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I remember reading somewhere that Pavis and Flintnail were planning to bring back the Green Age and/or Genert's Garden around the city. I also heard that Pavis and Flintnail have access to/reside in the Green Age, and that this has alowed the Pavis dwarves to produce living stone.

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4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I was of the belief that there were some very Green Age notions going on with Pavis

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I remember reading somewhere that Pavis and Flintnail were planning to bring back the Green Age

Im pretty sure this is part of Ian Thompson's Pavis epic fan work:

Vol. 1: Pavis - A Man for All Seasons (part of ‘Ye Booke of Tentacles 3’) - Tentacles Press – 2000
Vol. 2: The Masks of Pavis - Tentacles Press, 2001
Vol. 2A: Tradetalk 8 ‘P&BR Special, Part 1’ – Tentacles Press
Vol. 3: The Legacy of Pavis - Tentacles Press, 2002
Vol. 3A: Tradetalk 9 ‘P&BR Special, Part 2’ – Tentacles Press
Vol. 4: The Shadows of Pavis - Tentacles Press, 2003
Vol. 4A - Rough Guide to Pavis City (P&BR Companion Special Edition) - Tentacles Press, 2003
Vol. 5: Beyond Pavis: Adventures in the Zola Fel Valley – Tentacles Press, 2004

https://web.archive.org/web/20051025052945/http://www.pavis.nzrpga.org.nz/companion.html

4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

What about what's really going on in Mani's Fort?

What is really going on then?

Edited by David Scott

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9 hours ago, David Scott said:

Im pretty sure this is part of Ian Thompson's Pavis epic fan work:

Vol. 1: Pavis - A Man for All Seasons (part of ‘Ye Booke of Tentacles 3’) - Tentacles Press – 2000
Vol. 2: The Masks of Pavis - Tentacles Press, 2001
Vol. 2A: Tradetalk 8 ‘P&BR Special, Part 1’ – Tentacles Press
Vol. 3: The Legacy of Pavis - Tentacles Press, 2002
Vol. 3A: Tradetalk 9 ‘P&BR Special, Part 2’ – Tentacles Press
Vol. 4: The Shadows of Pavis - Tentacles Press, 2003
Vol. 4A - Rough Guide to Pavis City (P&BR Companion Special Edition) - Tentacles Press, 2003
Vol. 5: Beyond Pavis: Adventures in the Zola Fel Valley – Tentacles Press, 2004

https://web.archive.org/web/20051025052945/http://www.pavis.nzrpga.org.nz/companion.html

What is really going on then?

No fair, I asked you first :)

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17 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I was of the belief that there were some very Green Age notions going on with Pavis that grew out of his elf/human parentage and that's why he chose that site.  It goes back to the Giant's cradles, that giants built the walls and the link between Genert and the Green Age, etc.

And

15 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I remember reading somewhere that Pavis and Flintnail were planning to bring back the Green Age and/or Genert's Garden around the city. I also heard that Pavis and Flintnail have access to/reside in the Green Age, and that this has alowed the Pavis dwarves to produce living stone.

This is interesting. So, stacking assumptions on each other here, can we assume that Pavis' plan to become or create the Original Man is connected to some idea of a Green Age "humanist" Utopia? 

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We should also consider the idea that Pavis just isn't that important. 

In the political scheme of things, my understanding was that the Lunar Empire invaded Prax only because they failed to take the Holy Country; and set up to invade the Holy Country by sea. They took Prax. They took Pavis. They arranged for the invasion of the Holy Country by Sea (a two-pronged assault by land and sea). And once they had Esrolila and Heartland, Pavis became a political dead end (again). From an imperial point of view it was a curiosity, and a dumping ground, but nothing more. The "stalling" that the temple of Pavis did to avoid marrying into the lunar pantheon worked, because nobody in the empire who mattered cared. Poor Tala Errio! Through all kinds of rationalization she is aware that she's been shunted off to the end of the civilization for a project that, despite it's grand name and presumptions, is a throw-away. 

As for Pavis himself, I rather like the idea that he was a failed hero quester. People go to the frontier for all kinds of reasons - and one of them is that they can't hack it in competition with the big kids of civilization. So, impressive as Pavis' achievements were, maybe they just weren't up to snuff against the real heroes of the world.

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That could be looked at the other way around though, the less active and well resourced any long term Pavis Plan is, the less Ginkizzie and Pavis's Temple has to loose compared to the apparent gains from caving in to the Lunars. Why aren't more of Pavis's Daughters Pro Lunar? Granted a few are Sartar Exile stock, maybe the rest fret about Blue Moon Trolls in the Lunar scheme of things.

They could just be waiting to see how sustained the Lunar interest in Prax is, there's no point allying with occupiers who may be about to bug out.

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The Pavis situation is an interesting one.

It has been said, for example, that it is nearly impossible for player characters to make much of an impression in Pavis, because pretty much everything is sewn up by one interest or another.  There is one notable and glaring exception to that rule.  Becoming the new Son of Pavis is a wide open opportunity for anyone who has the skills.  The moment you do that, so many doors open for you, and everyone wants to be your friend, (except for the trolls).  And while Pavis the deity may be "stuck", the new Son of Pavis has a decidedly free hand to play.  Certainly the position is politically fraught in many ways, but it is if anything more interesting for that, and the perfect opportunity for a frontier opportunist.  Cliches like "get rich quick", "big fish in a small pond" etc.  spring to mind.

Pavis the city has problems aplenty.  The first being that it is a long way from anywhere important.  I mean, arguably there are things in the Wastes that are "important", but they don't really represent commercial opportunity.  Adari is a hole, and so is Corflu, and "Barbarian Town" doesn't inspire a sense of financial opportunity.  Now if Pavis had some commodity that could not be obtained elsewhere, there would be a lot more room for manoeuver, but apart from skullbush products, none springs to mind.  What the city needs is investment, enough to rebuild inside the walls, and that isn't forthcoming.  One logical prospect would be establishing  trade with Kralorela and Teshnos with Praxian help.  Such a thing is not impossible under the reign of Argrath, merely unlikely. 

Edited by Darius West
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15 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 One logical prospect would be establishing an overland trade with Kralorela and Teshnos with Praxian help.  Such a thing is not impossible under the reign of Argrath, merely unlikely. 

Welcome to the Issaries Desert Trackers. Your franchise agreement, handsomely calligraphed on rich faux hyena hide, accompanies this card. We suggest you sign it.

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2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The Pavis situation is an interesting one.

It has been said, for example, that it is nearly impossible for player characters to make much of an impression in Pavis, because pretty much everything is sewn up by one interest or another.  There is one notable and glaring exception to that rule.  Becoming the new Son of Pavis is a wide open opportunity for anyone who has the skills.  The moment you do that, so many doors open for you, and everyone wants to be your friend, (except for the trolls).  And while Pavis the deity may be "stuck", the new Son of Pavis has a decidedly free hand to play.  Certainly the position is politically fraught in many ways, but it is if anything more interesting for that, and the perfect opportunity for a frontier opportunist.  Cliches like "get rich quick", "big fish in a small pond" etc.  spring to mind.

Pavis the city has problems aplenty.  The first being that it is a long way from anywhere important.  I mean, arguably there are things in the Wastes that are "important", but they don't really represent commercial opportunity.  Adari is a hole, and so is Corflu, and "Barbarian Town" doesn't inspire a sense of financial opportunity.  Now if Pavis had some commodity that could not be obtained elsewhere, there would be a lot more room for manoeuver, but apart from skullbush products, none springs to mind.  What the city needs is investment, enough to rebuild inside the walls, and that isn't forthcoming.  One logical prospect would be establishing an overland trade with Kralorela and Teshnos with Praxian help.  Such a thing is not impossible under the reign of Argrath, merely unlikely. 

What Pavis does have is rubble ....

Seriously it is about the best kept bit of EWF ruins in the world.  So it terms of dragon lore and relics its the place to go.

The setting was written when player characters were adventures and dungeon delvers, not hero's and political movers and shakers. 

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1 minute ago, Jon Hunter said:

What Pavis does have is rubble ....

Seriously it is about the best kept bit of EWF ruins in the world.  So it terms of dragon lore and relics its the place to go.

The setting was written when player characters were adventures and dungeon delvers, not hero's and political movers and shakers. 

Yes I totally agree.  I sometimes get the feeling that the Rubble's magical items weren't left there by the denizens of the now ruined city back in the day, but by all the idiot treasure hunters who thought they would make their fortune digging up antiques.  Pavis is a great place for adventurers, if by "great place" you mean "trap" and for "adventurers" you mean "tourists".  So says the "Lonely Lozenge" Guide Book.

8 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Welcome to the Issaries Desert Trackers. Your franchise agreement, handsomely calligraphed on rich faux hyena hide, accompanies this card. We suggest you sign it.

On the contrary, only the most noob Issaries merchants (BV springs to mind) would ever go to Prax for fear of having to become Desert Trackers.  Kost is the exception. Speaking of which, have you noticed that Kost is the ONLY desert tracker ever mentioned save for the "High Priest" of Etyries at Corflu described by BV in CoP?  Let me assure you it isn't because Kost pays Black Fang assassins to remove his competition. Even if he was of a mind to, there would be no need.  The truth is that it remains far less dangerous to get to Teshnos by ship, just hugging the Bleak coast, and perhaps take some aluminium along for bribing merfolk, then travelling from there via the established Teshnan-Kralorelan trade byways.

 

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