Jump to content
David Scott

The Pavis Plan

Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

No. I'm just saying It doesn't say he was an initiate of draconic mysteries and that his cult has no draconic connection.

I don't think you just get to "study" draconic mysteries.  I think "study" is shorthand for initiation.  

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

If you are trying to embody a particular rune, then other competing runes should likely be suppressed. As Gloranthans are made up of all runes, there's undoubtably a bit of beast rune in there that needs suppressing.

Or you take a more inclusive approach.  Perhaps humans aren't the most perfect expression of the man rune?  

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

It seems likely that he was part of some kind of sorcerous school. Given he lived in Adari, which was just outside of the EWF (see the Historical maps in the Guide), it would suggest either that the group he was part of needed to be somewhere outside of the influence of the EWF or that Adari offered something that helped in the project (or both). Then once sacked he went to the EWF in Dragon Pass through family connections.

Well that would suggest a God Learner connection as has been suggested before.  After all, where would refugee God Learners have fled to after the sack of Robcradle?  There aren't many options apart from Adari, as if you keep going west you wind up in the EWF.  Similarly running down the Zola Fel would have likely been catastrophic as that is exactly what the enemy would have been expecting.  What are the alternatives?  Orathorn? A remote possibility, after all, how did they get there?  Mostal? That connection seems to have come later. 1000 Magicians?  No evidence.

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

The sidebar on p361 of Pavis GtA, implies that the experiment he was part of was part of the EWF:

It is hard to be part of an EWF experiment without being a draconic initiate I would suggest.

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

Pavis doesn't appear to have crafted any draconic grimoires.

Every grimoire written in Auld Wyrmish is by definition a draconic grimoire.  On the other hand I sincerely doubt that draconic magic is the sort of thing that you write down; it is about as unsorcerous as a magical tradiction can be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I don't think you just get to "study" draconic mysteries.  I think "study" is shorthand for initiation.  

There are various levels of initiation, each of them allowing different studies.

Depending on the draconi progress of the community Pavis joined after the sack of Adari, even the membership in a somewhat draconized cult of say Lhankor Mhy (as another potential source for his sorcery) could be counted as studying draconic mysteries.

Quote

Or you take a more inclusive approach.  Perhaps humans aren't the most perfect expression of the man rune?

According to the Xeotam dialogues, there are the Ifaldor a certain class of beings that are descended from Burtae that are the most perfect expression of the man rune. They are immortal, too - the Brithini, of course, descended from Storm, Sea and Earth, but Xeotam also mentions a people called Tamali whose divine ancestors are Dehori (elemental darkness beings) and Tilnti (a class of beings descended from Tilnta, the original Fertility Rune). Darkness+Fertility... could be a weird description of Uzuz, avoiding the usual Krjalki appellation.

Quote

 Well that would suggest a God Learner connection as has been suggested before.

You don't have to be related to the God Learners to encounter sorcery. Dwarves and the Lhankor Mhy cult with its associated guilds of alchemists, perfumers, jewellers etc. have it, too. RQ2 mentions guilds as go-to places for magic items. The guilds may teach some battle magic, but as a rule their specific guild spells are a form of sorcery. Sorcery is something you know, spirit magic something you have, divine or rune magic something you are. Any primarily knowledge-based magical effect is sorcery by this definition.

Quote

After all, where would refugee God Learners have fled to after the sack of Robcradle?

If they were lucky, downriver to Feroda, otherwise to the horse nomads, who quite probably would have ransomed them to Feroda or otherwise sold them off as slaves now that they didn't have any powerful backing any more,

Quote

There aren't many options apart from Adari, as if you keep going west you wind up in the EWF.  Similarly running down the Zola Fel would have likely been catastrophic as that is exactly what the enemy would have been expecting.  What are the alternatives?

Their former allies, the Pure Horse Folk. They never lived in Robcradle, but they roam the lands of Pavis County, the Better Place, and the Good Place of Prax. Unless the survivors headed into the wastes or directly to Feroda, nomads it is, and the likelihood for those nomads to be mounted on horses is very high.

Quote

It is hard to be part of an EWF experiment without being a draconic initiate I would suggest.

No, it is absolutely easy to be part of an EWF experiment without having any dragon knowledge at all. Think about the great dragon outline project. Do you think the Caladralanders - who were to be the breath of the immense beast - were enlightened dragon mystics? Not a chance.

Quote

Every grimoire written in Auld Wyrmish is by definition a draconic grimoire.

Fluency in Auld Wyrmish is some sort of lowest level draconic initiation, I will grant you that, but the Hunting and Waltzing bands didn't have any draconic magic other than the language when they started their movement. 250 years later, a majority of the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass probably still spoke Heortling among themselves and something very similar to Pavic as a pidgin to communicate with individuals deeper inside the draconic dream.

Quote

On the other hand I sincerely doubt that draconic magic is the sort of thing that you write down; it is about as unsorcerous as a magical tradiction can be.

A grimoire is written knowledge required to perform magic of the sorcerous kind. The sorcerer usually requires other implements as well as foci etc., and for completely memorized spell could forgo the grimoire. They'd use it if possible, though, since having it ready would give them a significant bonus in performing the spell.

I am fairly certain that especially guild sorcerers don't use massive scrolls or codici for their magic, but that they use embroidered ceremonial costumes, engraved tools  and workplaces to keep their grimoire present when performing their magics. These components probably require a few seals to put in place to be made accessible, so that anyone inspecting the workplace, the tools and the robes without those seals in place still cannot put together all the required knowledge.

We know that the Pavis Grimoire is written in Pavic, and not in Auld Wyrmish. Whatever his wisdom was, it wasn't dependent on draconic thinking. His research material might have been, but on the other hand a perfect specimen of the Man Rune would have to be free of a draconic taint, wouldn't it, so that his folk may have been or employed draconic speaking teachers to teach their insights to the experimental subject.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Joerg said:

We know that the Pavis Grimoire is written in Pavic, and not in Auld Wyrmish. Whatever his wisdom was, it wasn't dependent on draconic thinking. His research material might have been, but on the other hand a perfect specimen of the Man Rune would have to be free of a draconic taint, wouldn't it, so that his folk may have been or employed draconic speaking teachers to teach their insights to the experimental subject.

Makes me wonder how Old Pavic originated as a distinct Theyalan language in the first place. It has no mechanical relationship to Auld Wyrmish in RQ3 so there's no dragon structure there, but unless it's simply an isolated survival of pre-EWF Manirian dialects things get murky fast. 

(EDIT: In RQ2 of course Old Pavic translates up to pure Draconic so there's a root connection after all.)

It might also be fruitful to look at how the Pavis Project differed from what we consider core EWF. A lot of EWF seems to revolve around transcending (eliminating) Man Rune influences as one identifies with the dragon path. (Interestingly there is no singular "dragon rune" in the core set unless you lean toward Dragonewt, "Kralorela" or Beast (Dragon's Eye), but that's a side point. Also Immanent Mastery keeps Man.) Pavis may have been a reservoir of mortal influence they maintained in the laughably unlikely event that something might go terribly wrong. Now that they're gone, that treasure house remains behind. 

 

Edited by scott-martin
rules changes
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Perhaps humans aren't the most perfect expression of the man rune?

Of course they aren't! We all know that the Gold Wheel Dancers are the true embodiment of the Man rune.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Interestingly there is no singular "dragon rune" in the core set unless you lean toward Dragonewt, "Kralorela" or Beast (Dragon's Eye), but that's a side point.

We had this discussion when I was building the Glorantha Core font and what we included. The Dragonewt rune is the Dragon rune. The one that appeared after is the Godunya rune. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, David Scott said:

We had this discussion when I was building the Glorantha Core font and what we included. The Dragonewt rune is the Dragon rune. The one that appeared after is the Godunya rune. 

Ugh! No interest in rehashing old battlefields . . . and the Guide has "Dragon" for what the Long List called "Kralorela," which is already triggering the flashbacks. For me the central point remains that if EWF sought to sacrifice their Man connections they had an interesting set of other runes to embrace in its place. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Joerg said:

According to the Xeotam dialogues, there are the Ifaldor a certain class of beings that are descended from Burtae that are the most perfect expression of the man rune. They are immortal, too - the Brithini, of course, descended from Storm, Sea and Earth, but Xeotam also mentions a people called Tamali whose divine ancestors are Dehori (elemental darkness beings) and Tilnti (a class of beings descended from Tilnta, the original Fertility Rune). Darkness+Fertility... could be a weird description of Uzuz, avoiding the usual Krjalki appellation.

I totally agree with you on this point.  In fact it explains why Brithini can't go into the underworld.  They have no tie to the spirit rune, only to the man rune.  In fact given that the Brithini have basically cornered the man rune, it makes you wonder what Pavis was really up to.  

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Makes me wonder how Old Pavic originated as a distinct Theyalan language in the first place. It has no mechanical relationship to Auld Wyrmish in RQ3 so there's no dragon structure there, but unless it's simply an isolated survival of pre-EWF Manirian dialects things get murky fast. 

Yes, that is somewhat odd given that Old Pavic is basically Old Heortling with loads of Auld Wyrmish loan words.  Basically during the EWF Auld Wyrmish was the language of the social elite, and the common Orlanthi tongue was Old Pavic.  I would say that someone has done a bad language chart.  It happens.  Canon will betray.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

If they were lucky, downriver to Feroda, otherwise to the horse nomads, who quite probably would have ransomed them to Feroda or otherwise sold them off as slaves now that they didn't have any powerful backing any more.  

Their former allies, the Pure Horse Folk. They never lived in Robcradle, but they roam the lands of Pavis County, the Better Place, and the Good Place of Prax. Unless the survivors headed into the wastes or directly to Feroda, nomads it is, and the likelihood for those nomads to be mounted on horses is very high.

The Pure Horse Folk wouldn't have been enamored of all the soft city folk refugees, and would have politely found an alternative settlement for them, in the best case scenario. So, back to Adari it is.  The Pure Horse seem to have been pretty fair weather friends though, more mercenaries than Jrusteli allies.  I also think the giants would have assumed survivors would run for the coast and been able to stop them.  Being obvious is seldom a good survival strategy.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

No, it is absolutely easy to be part of an EWF experiment without having any dragon knowledge at all. Think about the great dragon outline project. Do you think the Caladralanders - who were to be the breath of the immense beast - were enlightened dragon mystics? Not a chance.

Caladraland was occupied by the Jrusteli during this period.  Their gods Caladra and Aurelion are a God Learner hybrid cult.  The EWF may have wanted to make Caladraland the breath of their dragon, but they never got that far thanks to the God Learners and their own unpopularity.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am fairly certain that especially guild sorcerers don't use massive scrolls or codicies for their magic, but that they use embroidered ceremonial costumes, engraved tools  and workplaces to keep their grimoire present when performing their magics. These components probably require a few seals to put in place to be made accessible, so that anyone inspecting the workplace, the tools and the robes without those seals in place still cannot put together all the required knowledge.

Sorcery is book magic.  The rules never detail the effects of various items of costume and paraphenalia, what they detail is the grimoires.  You study the books and learn the spells.  Every time sorcery gets written up for Glorantha it is different.  Only the books remain constant.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Fluency in Auld Wyrmish is some sort of lowest level draconic initiation, I will grant you that, but the Hunting and Waltzing bands didn't have any draconic magic other than the language when they started their movement. 250 years later, a majority of the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass probably still spoke Heortling among themselves and something very similar to Pavic as a pidgin to communicate with individuals deeper inside the draconic dream.

Old Pavic and Auld Wyrmish are related languages.  Old Pavic has many Auld Wyrmish use words.  What is unknown is whether Pavis had the forked tongue of a fluent Auld Wyrmish speaker.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

A grimoire is written knowledge required to perform magic of the sorcerous kind. The sorcerer usually requires other implements as well as foci etc., and for completely memorized spell could forgo the grimoire. They'd use it if possible, though, since having it ready would give them a significant bonus in performing the spell.

My point was tongue-in-cheek.  Dragon magic is anti-book magic, it is born of instinct and inner charisma.  The notion of a Draconic grimoire is an impossibility because Dragon magic has nothing in common with sorcery, hence the inability of the God Learners to simply subordinate it the way it subordinated other cults.  This was one of the key things that allowed the EWF to hold their own against the technically superior Jrusteli.  They couldn't be God Learned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally think that the Dragonewt rune represents the "stunted" draconic creatures, dinosaurs, wyrms, wyverns, dream dragons, and dragonewts. The "Dragon" rune is meant to represent physical True Dragons but is only widely used in Kralorela to signify the Emperor, who IS a true dragon. Some cultures use other runes to signify dragons, such as the orlanthi.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mentioned the Brithini elitaritanism expressed in the Xeotam dialogues:

46 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I totally agree with you on this point.  In fact it explains why Brithini can't go into the underworld.  They have no tie to the spirit rune, only to the man rune.  In fact given that the Brithini have basically cornered the man rune, it makes you wonder what Pavis was really up to.

The Brithini define themselves as low-level deities, descendants of Burtae (Aerlit the Kolati, Warera the Triolina, Britha the land goddess...). Their founder Malkion is a re-incarnation of the Creator in ever-descending levels of divine power. In his fourth re-incarnation (Fourth Action) as child of Aerlit and Warera he is the ancestor or archetype of the Ivaldi.

Malkion becomes the Sacrifice, though (Fifth Action), the primordial mortal for his kind. (Xeotam names Flamal as the first real death victim, at the hands or machinations of Eurmal, but the mortality of men is a different matter.) The Brithini expelled him (and his followers) prior to this step, and so escape the fate of following his example.

Fourth Action or Fifth Action Malkion may be regarded as the manifestation of the man rune. If it is Fifth Action Malkion (the mortal), then the Brithini stand above at least some of the restrictions of the Man Rune, and cease to be the perfect human.

 

Quote

Yes, that is somewhat odd given that Old Pavic is basically Old Heortling with loads of Auld Wyrmish loan words.  Basically during the EWF Auld Wyrmish was the language of the social elite, and the common Orlanthi tongue was Old Pavic.  I would say that someone has done a bad language chart.  It happens.  Canon will betray.

I think that Old Pavid is like Franglais or Germish/Denglish, a common language that adopts an excess of loanwords and loan concepts from a currently dominating and fashionable way of speaking. In earlier times, French expressions were fashionable and invaded Middle English, or on the continent the courteous language, much like in other periods Italian was fashionable.

Quote

The Pure Horse Folk wouldn't have been enamored of all the soft city folk refugees, and would have politely found an alternative settlement for them, in the best case scenario.

Like I said, I think the best case scenario is that the Pure Horse Folk deliver refugees to Feroda for a generous rescue fee/ransom, and in case of failur to pay, keeping or selling those individuals as slaves.

Quote

So, back to Adari it is.

I don't see them to settle useless (non-agrarian specialists in irrelevant skills) folk in one of the few settlements that provide them with grain for their horses. Selling them for grain makes a lot more sense.

Quote

The Pure Horse seem to have been pretty fair weather friends though, more mercenaries than Jrusteli allies.  I also think the giants would have assumed survivors would run for the coast and been able to stop them.  Being obvious is seldom a good survival strategy.

The Pure Horse Folk are opportunists - they sided with the Jrusteli in exchange for a share in the magical treasures, or similarly magical compensation. WIthout any such capital coming in, why bother treating them well?

Quote

Caladraland was occupied by the Jrusteli during this period.  Their gods Caladra and Aurelion are a God Learner hybrid cult.  The EWF may have wanted to make Caladraland the breath of their dragon, but they never got that far thanks to the God Learners and their own unpopularity.

But they did - the Volcano Twins did manage to take over the Low Temple, but the High Temple resisted their advances, and remained susceptible to the EWF influence. The Kotor Wars established the continued influence of the EWF in the region, and provided them access to what should become the nostril of their grand dragon design.

 

Quote

Sorcery is book magic.  The rules never detail the effects of various items of costume and paraphenalia, what they detail is the grimoires.  You study the books and learn the spells.  Every time sorcery gets written up for Glorantha it is different.  Only the books remain constant.

Books come in many guises - Mayan-style relief on the outside of step pyramids, codices, scrolls, frescoes, wax tablets, clay tablets, vases, even mechanical puzzles.

Distributing the writing on various media that come together when the magician performs the necessary work for the spell is a valid way of providing a written form for the relevant part of the magician's grimoire. Or, in old treasure speak, a (reusable) scroll.

Quote

Old Pavic and Auld Wyrmish are related languages.  Old Pavic has many Auld Wyrmish use words.  What is unknown is whether Pavis had the forked tongue of a fluent Auld Wyrmish speaker.

 More importantly - did he have the split brain and the lefthandedness that comes with full ability of Auld Wyrmish communications, allowing olfactory and similar components of the language. (I guess that's where the split tongue comes in, too...)

Pavis had to decide - become a pure human, or become a passable dragon initiate. He doesn't seem to have chosen the draconic option.

Quote

My point was tongue-in-cheek.  Dragon magic is anti-book magic, it is born of instinct and inner charisma.  The notion of a Draconic grimoire is an impossibility because Dragon magic has nothing in common with sorcery,

Partially correct. If you look at draconic martial arts schools like that Krisa Yar dojo, you will encounter knowledge magic that enhances their unarmed combat skills to a magical combat style. These things aren't purely mystical in nature, there is much learning involved to provide the perfect body movement.

Quote

hence the inability of the God Learners to simply subordinate it the way it subordinated other cults.

The God Learners weren't able to place experience over systematic categorisation, which is how they analyzed theistic cults and their secrets. Without the basic draconic experience, all observational data is worthless.

 

Quote

This was one of the key things that allowed the EWF to hold their own against the technically superior Jrusteli.  They couldn't be God Learned.

They had dragons only they could talk to...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/25/2017 at 6:19 AM, Joerg said:

I mentioned the Brithini elitaritanism expressed in the Xeotam dialogues:

The Brithini define themselves as low-level deities, descendants of Burtae (Aerlit the Kolati, Warera the Triolina, Britha the land goddess...). Their founder Malkion is a re-incarnation of the Creator in ever-descending levels of divine power. In his fourth re-incarnation (Fourth Action) as child of Aerlit and Warera he is the ancestor or archetype of the Ivaldi.

Malkion becomes the Sacrifice, though (Fifth Action), the primordial mortal for his kind. (Xeotam names Flamal as the first real death victim, at the hands or machinations of Eurmal, but the mortality of men is a different matter.) The Brithini expelled him (and his followers) prior to this step, and so escape the fate of following his example.

Nice exposition on the Brithin and the Man Rune.  I bet Pavis knew none of this.  I am sure it would have helped, especially in an age of God Learners.

On 3/25/2017 at 6:19 AM, Joerg said:

I think that Old Pavid is like Franglais or Germish/Denglish, a common language that adopts an excess of loanwords and loan concepts from a currently dominating and fashionable way of speaking. In earlier times, French expressions were fashionable and invaded Middle English, or on the continent the courteous language, much like in other periods Italian was fashionable.

I think Auld Wyrmish was a very ritualistic and conceptual language.  Old Pavic seems to be essentially the Hendrikiland language of the EWF transported to another place.  I encountered something similar in India recently, where the Indian version of English carries a large number of obsolete terms from the days of the Raj.  Current users of English don't commonly use terms like "Jolly Good" or "Pukka".  I think Old Pavis is probably similar, probably carrying Auld Wyrmish borrowed words for perception and internal mental states and social obligations (the sort of things Dragonewts would probably discuss.  I like your idea about Franglais/Germish too, and it is totally compatible.

On 3/25/2017 at 6:19 AM, Joerg said:

I don't see them to settle useless (non-agrarian specialists in irrelevant skills) folk in one of the few settlements that provide them with grain for their horses. Selling them for grain makes a lot more sense.

I agree with what you said about the Pure Horse for the most part, but not this small section.  Adari isn't a primarily agrarian settlement, it is a glorified trading post with the Trolls and Elves of Shadows Dance.  Jrusteli would have an excess of skills to trade in such an environment, and it is a lot better than going down river and getting killed by giants.  After all Feroda gets trashed by the giants too.

On 3/25/2017 at 6:19 AM, Joerg said:

Partially correct. If you look at draconic martial arts schools like that Krisa Yar dojo, you will encounter knowledge magic that enhances their unarmed combat skills to a magical combat style. These things aren't purely mystical in nature, there is much learning involved to provide the perfect body movement.

That is Kralorela not EWF.  Also, are you totally sure that the magic invoked is actually sorcery?  Kralorelan sorcery is odd, and probably not quite sorcery at all really.

On 3/25/2017 at 6:19 AM, Joerg said:

Books come in many guises - Mayan-style relief on the outside of step pyramids, codices, scrolls, frescoes, wax tablets, clay tablets, vases, even mechanical puzzles.

Mayan reliefs weren't about spells, they were primarily about recording lists of kings and how many people they killed. Even in most temples they don't put their inner teachings on the walls or out in the open for common perusal, though there are examples of the "Green Language" in European Architecture.  Codices, scrolls and clay tablets are the ones that will be primarily used.  Wax tablets are way too temporary.   Vases and Mechanical puzzles are interesting ideas that could work, though I suspect only dwarves could create a mechanical puzzle of sufficient complexity to teach a spell.  I like those ideas.  I bet the Atroxic church (for example) doesn't use many of them though.

On 3/25/2017 at 6:19 AM, Joerg said:

The God Learners weren't able to place experience over systematic categorisation, which is how they analyzed theistic cults and their secrets. Without the basic draconic experience, all observational data is worthless.

Yes.  I agree.

On 3/25/2017 at 6:19 AM, Joerg said:

But they did - the Volcano Twins did manage to take over the Low Temple, but the High Temple resisted their advances, and remained susceptible to the EWF influence. The Kotor Wars established the continued influence of the EWF in the region, and provided them access to what should become the nostril of their grand dragon design.

Influence is not control.  I agree that the EFW may have wanted to make the volcanoes into dragon nostrils, but they failed.

On 3/25/2017 at 6:19 AM, Joerg said:

They had dragons only they could talk to...

Talking to a dragon is not the same as God Learning the Draconic path.

On 3/25/2017 at 6:19 AM, Joerg said:

More importantly - did he have the split brain and the lefthandedness that comes with full ability of Auld Wyrmish communications, allowing olfactory and similar components of the language. (I guess that's where the split tongue comes in, too...)

Pavis had to decide - become a pure human, or become a passable dragon initiate. He doesn't seem to have chosen the draconic option.

I consider this your most important point, and we simply don't know.  Did Pavis have the operation?  The split tongue would be the only way to physically tell, and most statues, frescoes, and other works of art don't usually depict people poking their tongues out.  I would seriously suggest that the point is open.  There is nothing to prove or disprove it.  And what is a pure human anyhow?  Pavis is a hybrid, and while dragonewts are not human, they do manifest some traits of the man rune.  Also, what is lost if Pavis was a draconic initiate?  Nothing I can see.

Edited by Darius West

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I think Auld Wyrmish was a very ritualistic and conceptual language.  

It probably has concepts that are different from syntax or semantics. A factual statement in AW might contain a koan or a paradox.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Old Pavic seems to be essentially the Hendrikiland language of the EWF transported to another place.

Almost full agreement here. The citizens of Old Pavis were brought in from EWF lands, but included Joraz Khyrem's zebra folk, so I expect there to be significant elements of the Pure Horse Folk/Grazelander dialect, too, especially since the zebra nomads provided the royal dynasty, and a good smattering of Praxian terms. The Pol Joni dialect might be rather closely related, like Old Pavic without the draconic influences.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Adari isn't a primarily agrarian settlement, it is a glorified trading post with the Trolls and Elves of Shadows Dance.  

Adari survived somehow through the Inhuman Occupation of Dragon Pass, so it must have been similar to the Praxian oases during that time - a barely self-sufficient agrarian community with a fertility connection and holy place, with the trade post function being an optional extra.

This doesn't quite tell us what Adari was like during the time of Robcradle. The proximity of uz and aldryami may have been the reason why the experimentators who gave birth to Pavis chose it for their experiment, and the lack of direct draconic emanations may have been a plus, too.

Adari sits on the border of the Bison Plain, one of the better pastures in Prax (though not comparable to the Sacred Ground around the Paps). Dagori Inkarth to its north may not have experienced as much damage from the Chaos fighting, but it is dominated by a fertility that brings a lot of decay with it. The Sporewood is the most extreme such place, but the lands east of the Indigo Mountains don't offer any useful grazing for Praxian herds or agricultural opportunities. The vegetation supports the giant and less giant insects from Hell, though.

I really wonder what the Sporewood is feeding on. This must have been a well of fertility before the arrival of the Voralans accompanying the uz, with a huge, possibly regenerating bit of growing matter that feeds the mushrooms in the ground constantly, allowing them to push out their fruit bodies permanently, and in such a size.

Maybe a piece of the corpse of Ragnaglar? Bad and deadly and corrupted as he was, Ragnaglar was a deity of a twisted fertility.

Back to Adari. It may have served as a meeting place where Praxians and Dagori Inkarth traders could trade. How common are chitineous armor and tools among the Praxians? When metal is hard to get, these uz products might be an excellent alternative, especially for protective clothing in battle. The Praxians would pay with herd beasts other than their own, of course. When the Pure Horse Folk took over, this trade may have suffered - sun worshippers usually don't wear chitin, and they had trading privileges with the EWF. The Pol Joni probably don't have any dogmatic reasons to avoid insect products, but they too have trade privileges with the Sartarites, which translates as better access to bronze.

During the glorious past of Old Pavis, Adari may have been situated on the trade route to the city. The prohibition against wheeled transport through Praxian grazing may have been suspended here, on the border of Dagori Inkarth. The Pavis Road sounds like an achievement of Dorasar, in the tradition of his grandfather Sartar, and probably building on the impression Sartar left with the priesthood of the Paps.

Adari is off the Nomad Gods boardgame map, but the Bison plains are a grazing and hunting ground of the Praxians, and they would have treated the place like they treated any other oasis population. I don't think that the frequent troll presence would have stopped them from mercilessly exploiting the oasis population there. And the same goes for the Pure Horse Folk. Grain-fed horses would be something of a status symbol among horse folk. The Grazers perfected this with their Vendref population. Their distant ancestors would have done the same.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Jrusteli would have an excess of skills to trade in such an environment, and it is a lot better than going down river and getting killed by giants.  After all Feroda gets trashed by the giants too.

Trade requires the exchange of trade goods, something the refugees will have lacked. And unlike Harst's Spare Grain, they also lacked a community from which to loan enough initial capital to start that business.

IMO the horse folk noticed the absence of the tribute from Robcradle, and stopped being friendly. Enslaved survivors may have been ransomed - even if Feroda was trashed, there always were Jrusteli ships making landfall there on their way between Slontos and Eest. Feroda was the best source for clandestine Truestone.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

That is Kralorela not EWF.  Also, are you totally sure that the magic invoked is actually sorcery?  Kralorelan sorcery is odd, and probably not quite sorcery at all really.

The Krisa Yar dojo is situated in western Tarsh, possibly outside of the Glowline, near the Red Dragon lair. (The source for this institution is Arcane Lore. While that book is the least reliable of the Stafford library, it still provides lots of useful detail, leaked from Greg's playtesting games.) There were significant Kralori influences in the EWF, especially after a certain Godunya was forced to flee from the False Dragons and took up a life as migrant sage and belt buckle salesman in the developing draconic community of Orlanthland.

During the Hero Wars era, Greg insisted on the absolute separation of the Three Otherworlds, and much discussion was directed at the nature of magic in the mystical east. They used bits of every magic, and they have the myths about how the pure forms of these magics are inferior to the mystical powers.

Their sorcery is odd - their grimoires aren't written, but are probably hidden in the choreography of their kata forms.

Godunya's sorcery is different from the sorcery used elsewhere in the east. The East Islanders and the people of Vormain use sorcery along with their divine magic, rather than the animist Battle Magic. Teshnans might, too, but they had the most direct exposure to the God Learners.

But it looks like we continue to disagree about what can be a grimoire and what cannot:

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Mayan reliefs weren't about spells, they were primarily about recording lists of kings and how many people they killed. Even in most temples they don't put their inner teachings on the walls or out in the open for common perusal, though there are examples of the "Green Language" in European Architecture.  

When I wrote about the guild sorcerers, I was thinking of something like the Freemasons' accoutrements and tools, with their mysterious symbols plain to see, but their meaning restricted to those with the necessary knowledge to decipher it.

Mayan writing uses a plethora of symbols for the same sounds. When the European translators managed to match a multitude of symbols to a Mayan syllable, the kings lists etc. became legible. However: what about a written language where the choice of the symbol for a syllable carries an additional meaning, a second level of information? Steganography is a common method to convey secrets in plain sight. The Mayan script might contain steganographic information we cannot access because we lack the context to decypher it. (Ok, this discussion would more properly belong to a Call of Cthulhu list, but the concept is applicable to Gloranthan writings, too.)

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Codices, scrolls and clay tablets are the ones that will be primarily used.

Stone engravings and frescoes are the oldest media for storing magical information.

Another thought: The Tadeniti were the Danmalastan tribe targeted by the Mostali/Vadeli alliance. Why would the Mostali go after the writers and recorders rather than after the Kadeniti builders and makers? The Tadeniti might have re-invented Mostali recording methods through other means than just scribbling, or they might have been close to deciphering the blueprints of their world machine.

Grimoires aren't necessarily something a sorcerer carries with him in order to refresh his spells while his fighter and thief class companions sleep. Often they are integral parts of the teaching facilities of the sorcerous order. Why not integrate them into the architecture? Glass windows, frescoes, engravings, mosaics all are media to store information. A grimoire maintained like this cannot easily be stolen, and access to the key rooms of such orders is extremely restricted.

Students of these orders transcribe parts of those grimoires into a portable format, but those copies are just that, copies, limited by the understanding of the person who did the transcription.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Vases and Mechanical puzzles are interesting ideas that could work, though I suspect only dwarves could create a mechanical puzzle of sufficient complexity to teach a spell.  I like those ideas.  I bet the Atroxic church (for example) doesn't use many of them though.

I thought of mechanical puzzles with inscriptions, requiring much less sophisticated technology to obfuscate the writing. Spell knowledge inferred just by the gears and levers of a miniature machine does indeed sound like a Mostali way to create a grimoire, yes.

The Atroxic orderprobably is traditional in using the flayed hide of their arch-enemies to record their knowledge, in the best tradition of Zzabur.

We do know that the Malkioni orders derive spells from scripture - including the Kings lists and noble families listed in the Abiding Book, or the tedious self-aggrandizing memoires of Sir Ethilrist. The texts are available to the public, but the key to reading them in a way that confers the magic has a lot in common with cabbalistic interpretation of the Thora.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Influence is not control.  I agree that the EFW may have wanted to make the volcanoes into dragon nostrils, but they failed.

Their plan only required the Caladralanders to be volcano worshippers at the Vent. They didn't have to become draconic initiates - in fact, I believe that all the diverse draconic side project damaged or delayed the Grand Dragon project of the EWF.

But then, I disagree strongly with the badly researched description of the EWF in the Mongoose book - any history of the EWF that has Vistikos present hundreds of years after his last recorded activity but that doesn't mention Obduran the Flyer or Isgangdrang is seriously flawed. Mongoose did some catching up in later publications, but the damage was done.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Talking to a dragon is not the same as God Learning the Draconic path.

It isn't.

In the Genertela box, the discovery of draconic speech was blamed on the God Learners. However, Vistikos was active during the reign Nralar the Old, when the Jrusteli colonies were just about to be settled, and when the Stygian Autarchy still held tightly to their secret knowledge of the Hero Planes. Even so, I guess that if a God Learner had somehow achieved knowledge of draconic speech, he wouldn't have been able to fit it into his preconceptions.

There might have been an experiment where some Jrusteli inflicted Auld Wyrmish to an innocent population in order to parse the secrets of the EWF, at some later point. If there was, they didn't learn anything that brought them closer to the secrets of the draconic magic.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I consider this your most important point, and we simply don't know.  Did Pavis have the operation?  The split tongue would be the only way to physically tell, and most statues, frescoes, and other works of art don't usually depict people poking their tongues out.  I would seriously suggest that the point is open.  There is nothing to prove or disprove it.  

The body of Pavis is preserved in the crystal at the heart of his temple in the Rubble. The crystal has a few cracks, but the body should still be visible. Probably with his mouth shut, though.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

And what is a pure human anyhow?  Pavis is a hybrid, and while dragonewts are not human, they do manifest some traits of the man rune.  Also, what is lost if Pavis was a draconic initiate?  Nothing I can see.

Pavis being a hybrid might be the key to the experiment. The experimentators went for an inclusive man of all expressions of the man rune.

The dragons never adopted the man rune, though. But it appears like their opponents, the Elder Giants, did.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/26/2017 at 5:07 PM, Joerg said:

Trade requires the exchange of trade goods, something the refugees will have lacked. And unlike Harst's Spare Grain, they also lacked a community from which to loan enough initial capital to start that business.

Get scrap wood, loose stone, perhaps metal.  Form/Set them into cooking utensils, tools, weapons, etc.  Sell these items.  Suddenly you have capital.  Loan that capital to other refugees.  Suddenly they have capital and you have traded money for influence.  Such is the Jrusteli way.  As for horse nomads remaining friendly, that would probably be on a case by case basis.  People and situations differ after all.  Some horse nomads may be kinder than others, or more loyal to friends in trouble, while others might be just awful, and the same goes for the Jrusteli refugees too.

On 3/26/2017 at 5:07 PM, Joerg said:

There were significant Kralori influences in the EWF, especially after a certain Godunya was forced to flee from the False Dragons and took up a life as migrant sage and belt buckle salesman in the developing draconic community of Orlanthland.

*chuckle*  That's a bit of a gem of Gloranthan lore right there.  Where might I find reference to Godunya becoming a belt buckle salesman?  It amuses me that Godunya might have arrived in the EWF with fewer friends and resources than Pavis.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Darius West said:

*chuckle*  That's a bit of a gem of Gloranthan lore right there.  Where might I find reference to Godunya becoming a belt buckle salesman?  It amuses me that Godunya might have arrived in the EWF with fewer friends and resources than Pavis.

The humble belt buckle salesman is of course a reference to one of Greg's more itinerant early career choices. It comes up most recently in the description of the town of Hsin Yin in the Guide.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Darius West said:

*chuckle*  That's a bit of a gem of Gloranthan lore right there.  Where might I find reference to Godunya becoming a belt buckle salesman?  It amuses me that Godunya might have arrived in the EWF with fewer friends and resources than Pavis.

Godunya's career is told in Revealed Mythologies, minus the belt buckle saleseman bit. He joined what he called a monastery as one of the paupers, got the permission to meditate, and soon even the masters of the monastery came to observe his techniques and to learn from him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/24/2017 at 1:40 AM, David Scott said:

Pavis doesn't appear to have crafted any draconic grimoires.

Draconic magic is antithetical to the whole idea of grimoires and sorcery.  The concepts don't knit together.  That is why the God learners could never really get their heads around it apart for the "interesting mess" we know as "the Cult of Immanent Mastery".  In fact Immanent Mastery has very little to do with actual Draconic Mysticism, and is more like a Hsunchen cult that treats Hykim and Mikyh as both dragons and animal ancestors, thus allowing adherents to transform into bestial facsimiles of dragons.  So it is no wonder that Pavis doesn't write Draconic grimoires;' it can't be done, because Draconic Mysticism is a spontaneous emergence of inner nature, and you can't put that in a book and turn it into a formula, even if you are a God Learner and well aware how many angels can dance on the head of a pin to 10 significant figures. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can help but think that the Hunting and Waltzing Bands started out with a pantomime dancing dragon, like the ones used for the Heler rites, or in our world, for Chinese New Year festivals, and/or the Dragon and George festivities in England and elsewhere.

By some bizarre deviation, the ritual combat when differently...

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder, since Malkion is descending from the perfect Mind or Intellect and draconic lore is all about ascending to spiritual perfection with the dragon, which is a beast, if what we've got with the God Learners/EWF is a ying-yang situation.  at some point Malkion will be at a mid point just as the draconic mysticism reaches its philosophical midpoint and that seems to be about when both empire fall.  Or right about when Pavis is mucking about.  Pavis is where the western philosophy and the draconic philosophy met as they passed so to speak.  His city represents that mingling of Man, Intellect and Spirituality.

Only out of that could the perfect mixture of Man, Intellect and Spirit arise which became the Argrath.  Or Elusu the little shit, take your pick.  Either way, project complete.

Doesn't it make perfect sense, then, that the Argrath first act upon returning from his circumnavigation isn't to become King of Sartar, it is to liberate Pavis and become it's King?

 

Edited by Pentallion
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Darius West said:

Draconic magic is antithetical to the whole idea of grimoires and sorcery.  The concepts don't knit together.  That is why the God learners could never really get their heads around it apart for the "interesting mess" we know as "the Cult of Immanent Mastery".  In fact Immanent Mastery has very little to do with actual Draconic Mysticism, and is more like a Hsunchen cult that treats Hykim and Mikyh as both dragons and animal ancestors, thus allowing adherents to transform into bestial facsimiles of dragons.  So it is no wonder that Pavis doesn't write Draconic grimoires;' it can't be done, because Draconic Mysticism is a spontaneous emergence of inner nature, and you can't put that in a book and turn it into a formula, even if you are a God Learner and well aware how many angels can dance on the head of a pin to 10 significant figures. 

There may well be hidden EWF schools in Pavis, long-forgotten by all but a small number of Pavic Survivors. Don't forget that Pavis was under Troll domination for centuries and only recently opened up. Those who stayed in Pavis often went underground and survived as isolated pockets of people, many dies out, but some survived. One of the best things about a Pavis campaign, in my opinion, is to piece these together and tease out the forgotten magic/lore. So, a clan might have some EWF knowledge, but it just manifests as a wyter, or the surviving handful of a Pavic Family can cast a Draconic spell, or knows a story about a White Dragon.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I wonder, since Malkion is descending from the perfect Mind or Intellect and draconic lore is all about ascending to spiritual perfection with the dragon, which is a beast, if what we've got with the God Learners/EWF is a ying-yang situation.  at some point Malkion will be at a mid point just as the draconic mysticism reaches its philosophical midpoint and that seems to be about when both empire fall.  Or right about when Pavis is mucking about.  Pavis is where the western philosophy and the draconic philosophy met as they passed so to speak.  His city represents that mingling of Man, Intellect and Spirituality.

An argument can be made that Argrath gained some of his Draconic knowledge when he stayed in Pavis before its liberation. He could then go and look for the EWF Banner, cause Dragonrise, gain the Dragonteeth Warriors and so on.

15 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Only out of that could the perfect mixture of Man, Intellect and Spirit arise which became the Argrath.  Or Elusu the little shit, take your pick.  Either way, project complete.

Possibly. I am sure that Pavis cultists will argue that they made Argrath, leaving aside the White Bull Society, as that is just nomad bull.

 

15 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Doesn't it make perfect sense, then, that the Argrath first act upon returning from his circumnavigation isn't to become King of Sartar, it is to liberate Pavis and become it's King?

It makes more sense that Argrath used to live in Pavis, had a lot of connections there and that the Lunars in Pavis were cut off by a long supply line through Prax or by the recently-established Lunar Holy Country possessions.

I tend to think that Pavis was the easiest place to liberate and, with the Red Goddess courting Pavis as a husband, that gave him a HeroQuest that he could interfere with to break the Lunar influence. Breaking that courtship undermined the Lunars, allowing a rebellion to start and kicking the Lunars out. I like to think the Trolls were involved as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, soltakss said:

There may well be hidden EWF schools in Pavis, long-forgotten by all but a small number of Pavic Survivors. Don't forget that Pavis was under Troll domination for centuries and only recently opened up. Those who stayed in Pavis often went underground and survived as isolated pockets of people, many dies out, but some survived. One of the best things about a Pavis campaign, in my opinion, is to piece these together and tease out the forgotten magic/lore. So, a clan might have some EWF knowledge, but it just manifests as a wyter, or the surviving handful of a Pavic Family can cast a Draconic spell, or knows a story about a White Dragon.

I wouldn't have called such fragmentary surviving EWF abilities "schools".

Whoever possessed these abilities in 1042 after the mass utuma of the draconic thinkers must have been just below the recognition level of being worthy of that utuma, however dragonewts and blue moon trolls may have allocated that, but might have developed the last missing bit of draconic insight some time after the utuma, and outside of the dragon dream that supported the magics.

One immediate consequence of the mass utuma was the end of the dragon dream. Livestock and harvests that had become more draconic in the centuries of the dragon dream either succumbed to disease-like malfunctions or reverted to earlier forms. Middle Sea Empire tells us about two kinds of grain harvested in the center of the dragon dream:

Quote

They raise grains that they call velt and kreet, similar to those outside the land but different. I’ve seen none of them beyond the borders of Kerofinela, and have been unable to acquire any to export. When I tried to secret some away they molded into a putrid slime in my pocket and packet. Yet, when eaten there they are tasty, hearty and sublime.

With the dragon dream ended, all the harvest in the fields was bound to mold away into a similar slime in 1042, causing foraging problems even for the vengeful raiders from Peloria, possibly explaining why they didn't remain to press more out more tribute of the survivors of the Mass Utuma.

The subsequent lack of food will have depopulated Dragon Pass possibly even before the arrival of the raiders, with refugees flooding into the Hendriki kingdom and Esrolia, and possibly to Pavis.

Pavis was far enough from Dragon Pass that the effects of the dragon dream were only mild, possibly not enough to support velt and kreet, and anyway we suspect at least some Pavisites to have practiced Green Age magics for food production.

Apart from the abrupt change in life support, many magics were hampered, too. Imagine Lunar magics at permanent Black Moon or even less power - what use would it be in the day to day struggle for survival in or beneath the Rubble?

Given the centuries between the Mass Utuma and the troll occupation, there is a possibility that some EWF rites and low-level surviving abilities may have become identity-defining elements of the particular group in question, much like a clan tattoo, and therefore preserved even when it gave no more other benefit than defining the social "us".

Collecting and identifying these sounds like work for a few generations of Gray Sages, especially with the pollution brought in by new Pavisites after the Dragonewt's Dream.

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

An argument can be made that Argrath gained some of his Draconic knowledge when he stayed in Pavis before its liberation. He could then go and look for the EWF Banner, cause Dragonrise, gain the Dragonteeth Warriors and so on.

I am with you on the topics of the EWF Banner and the Dragonteeth Runners, but the Dragonrise was masterminded by Minaryth Purple and Orlaront Dragonfriend (who was said to have been ignorant of the Brown Dragon's existence prior to the rite).

 

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

It makes more sense that Argrath used to live in Pavis, had a lot of connections there and that the Lunars in Pavis were cut off by a long supply line through Prax or by the recently-established Lunar Holy Country possessions.

I tend to think that Pavis was the easiest place to liberate and, with the Red Goddess courting Pavis as a husband, that gave him a HeroQuest that he could interfere with to break the Lunar influence. Breaking that courtship undermined the Lunars, allowing a rebellion to start and kicking the Lunars out. I like to think the Trolls were involved as well.

I agree - Garrath Sharpspear had a power base in and around Pavis. The White Bull Society is a huge resource, and the sedentary folk of Pavis knew him as one of their few holy men of Storm.

Whether the marriage of Pavis to the pantheon had already taken place or still was about to be concluded may vary from campaign to campaign. There might be a holy child hidden away somewhere spawned by the union of a (male) Daughter of Pavis and the Lunar priestess who mothered it. If so, it might become a valuable future resource for Argrath, too, as he assimilates more and more Lunar followers and magics to his cause. Think Phoronestes of Tarsh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:07 PM, jeffjerwin said:

I can help but think that the Hunting and Waltzing Bands started out with a pantomime dancing dragon, like the ones used for the Heler rites, or in our world, for Chinese New Year festivals, and/or the Dragon and George festivities in England and elsewhere.

The terrible truth of what Morris Dancing disguises as a dragon...

 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/2/2018 at 5:47 AM, Pentallion said:

I wonder, since Malkion is descending from the perfect Mind or Intellect and draconic lore is all about ascending to spiritual perfection with the dragon, which is a beast, if what we've got with the God Learners/EWF is a ying-yang situation.  at some point Malkion will be at a mid point just as the draconic mysticism reaches its philosophical midpoint and that seems to be about when both empire fall.  Or right about when Pavis is mucking about.  Pavis is where the western philosophy and the draconic philosophy met as they passed so to speak.  His city represents that mingling of Man, Intellect and Spirituality.

Only out of that could the perfect mixture of Man, Intellect and Spirit arise which became the Argrath.  Or Elusu the little shit, take your pick.  Either way, project complete.

Doesn't it make perfect sense, then, that the Argrath first act upon returning from his circumnavigation isn't to become King of Sartar, it is to liberate Pavis and become it's King?

Those are some intriguing ideas Pentallion.  There are also some more mundane political and otherwise pragmatic and expedient reasons for Argrath's return to Pavis.  

For example... His followers from the Cradle had been overseas for years and wanted to go home.  Argrath's power base, the Whitebulls and the Sartarite rebels are in the Pavis area.  The Lunar Garrison in Pavis is isolated since Kallyr took Sartar.  Also Pavis represents the best gathering point for military supply in Prax and is the only thing worth calling a city in the area.  

On the other hand, everything you suggested is entirely reasonable. The city of Pavis was the only real neutral point of contact between the EWF and the Godlearners.  There is of course Delecti the Necromancer (who may well be the last Godlearner with the Rune Quest Sight, given that he was within the Line of Death when the Giftbearers were on the move), but he isn't very approachable.  I wonder what that synthesis would look like?

From a strict rules perspective I confess I am uncertain about how far ahead combining Draconic magic and Sorcery would get you though, as their aims an abilities seem radically different.  For example, page 42 of the new Glorantha Bestiary says that Dragonewts don't use any elemental connections in their magic.  Of course it also makes perfect sense to "grab everything you can get".  Dragon magic and Sorcery may combine well BECAUSE they have no overlaps (a bit like an alliance that forms because neither party really wants anything the other party has, but they have mutual foes who want what both possess).  It is obvious that Argrath makes use of Sorcerers, and has access to the Dragon Teeth that turn into warriors, but is he truly the Kwizatz Haderach i.e. a master of both too?  Meme included for fun:

  00bb1312b799fd82f7a740842d9809f6.jpg.ac761c78ea8d7a88c170b9c5d3d8e5b3.jpg

I am interested to hear about how you have developed your ideas on this area. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Darius West said:

There is of course Delecti the Necromancer (who may well be the last Godlearner with the Rune Quest Sight, given that he was within the Line of Death when the Giftbearers were on the move), but he isn't very approachable.  I wonder what that synthesis would look like?

The Gift Bearers originated in Umathela after the Closing had struck. How did they get to Genertela?

Most Malkioneranists in Genertela (after the Machine War had ended) and branches thereof were hunted down by allies of Halwal, and a fair number of misguided Makanists got taken down, too.

Halwal and Yomili met like particle and antiparticle, leaving behind lots of radiation at the Red Ruin.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

From a strict rules perspective I confess I am uncertain about how far ahead combining Draconic magic and Sorcery would get you though, as their aims an abilities seem radically different.  For example, page 42 of the new Glorantha Bestiary says that Dragonewts don't use any elemental connections in their magic.  Of course it also makes perfect sense to "grab everything you can get".  Dragon magic and Sorcery may combine well BECAUSE they have no overlaps (a bit like an alliance that forms because neither party really wants anything the other party has, but they have mutual foes who want what both possess).  It is obvious that Argrath makes use of Sorcerers, and has access to the Dragon Teeth that turn into warriors, but is he truly the Kwizatz Haderach i.e. a master of both too? 

Argrath looks like he is following the path of Obduran who proved that you could be a great draconic thinker and an operational worshiper of Orlanth at the same time. One of Argrath's exotic (draconic?) powers in Dragon Pass is to negate the glowline effect in his own hex.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/1/2018 at 11:46 PM, Darius West said:

Draconic magic is antithetical to the whole idea of grimoires and sorcery. 

Essentially, the history of the EWF would tend to put this in doubt, or at least indicate that there is a lot more going on. The EWF is known to use sorcery quite a bit (admittedly not as much as theism), and while Pavis sorcery doesn’t directly show draconic abilities, it certainly seems to be linked to draconic philosophy at some level, if nothing else being written in Auld Wyrmish (and of course, it’s explicitly not Malkioni and reads as blasphemous to them, should they be able to read it at all). 

Draconic magic is mystic. Antithesis is the wrong way to think of it - to the extent that you might think of other forms of magic as antithetical to dragon powers, draconic Illumination is the synthesis of these opposing ideas. This is almost explicit in the way we talk about theism and draconic illumination - Orlanth destroying the dragons becomes Orlanth gaining dragon insight. 

So - I think of EWF sorcery as being totally different to draconic magic (like dragonnewt powers), but amenable to synthesis by those who have undergone draconic illumination, in ways that are hard to explain to the inilluminated. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×