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The Pavis Plan


David Scott

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1 hour ago, davecake said:

Essentially, the history of the EWF would tend to put this in doubt, or at least indicate that there is a lot more going on. The EWF is known to use sorcery quite a bit (admittedly not as much as theism), and while Pavis sorcery doesn’t directly show draconic abilities, it certainly seems to be linked to draconic philosophy at some level, if nothing else being written in Auld Wyrmish (and of course, it’s explicitly not Malkioni and reads as blasphemous to them, should they be able to read it at all). 

Draconic magic is mystic. Antithesis is the wrong way to think of it - to the extent that you might think of other forms of magic as antithetical to dragon powers, draconic Illumination is the synthesis of these opposing ideas. This is almost explicit in the way we talk about theism and draconic illumination - Orlanth destroying the dragons becomes Orlanth gaining dragon insight. 

So - I think of EWF sorcery as being totally different to draconic magic (like dragonnewt powers), but amenable to synthesis by those who have undergone draconic illumination, in ways that are hard to explain to the unilluminated. 

I haven't seen anything within the EWF info that suggests that they were strong Sorcery users at all I am sorry to say.  They certainly employed sorcerers like Delecti, and it was certainly an age when the God Learners were dominating the world with sorcery, but the EWF were using massed triceratops units and dragon fire from dragon magic to control their empire, not sorcery.  That being said, the God Learners definitely infiltrated the Lightbringers at the time, and that is the likely source of the Lhankor Mhy Torvald Fragments, as it is documented that the God Learners liked to do Chalana Arroy and Lhankor Mhy hero quests as they were comparatively low risk/high reward.

As for the synthesis of Sorcery and Draconic magic, the result is that they don't really work together at all.  Draconic magic suffers from all the spiritual attachments to intellect and reason, and Sorcery suffers from wasting time better spent on study of sorcery pursuing a fruitless and irrational non-human tradition.  There might be some value in using the Draconic Land Attunement for increasing sorcery spell range, but there are no records of it being done.

Edited by Darius West
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 You haven’t seen anything that suggests the EWF were strong sorcery users, other than all those sorcerers hangiing around the place doing stuff? 

Like the Lunars, they have multiple forms of magic within their system , all joined into one system by mystic insight, building a new magical world. 

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14 minutes ago, davecake said:

 You haven’t seen anything that suggests the EWF were strong sorcery users, other than all those sorcerers hanging around the place doing stuff? 

Like the Lunars, they have multiple forms of magic within their system , all joined into one system by mystic insight, building a new magical world. 

Okay, clearly you are pretty certain about this, so please, fill me in on where I can find the info?  What are your sources?

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3 hours ago, davecake said:

Essentially, the history of the EWF would tend to put this in doubt, or at least indicate that there is a lot more going on.

There is a lot more going on in the EWF and even in Orlanthland than just draconic mysticism. The Pavis Plan, the Remakers, the City of Ten Thousand Magicians (where Akgarbash of Laurmal probably lectured), the two people having the contest for becoming the oldest person alive...

 

Quote

The EWF is known to use sorcery quite a bit (admittedly not as much as theism), and while Pavis sorcery doesn’t directly show draconic abilities, it certainly seems to be linked to draconic philosophy at some level, if nothing else being written in Auld Wyrmish

Only "Master of the Faceless King" is explicitely written in Auld Wyrmish, the other three or four grimoires are likely written in Old Pavic.

The Auld Wyrmish tainted Heortling dialect of Dragon Pass was the local language of the time, but is now called Old Pavic.

It will be interesting to speculate why a Greatway Jolanti subject to Mostali sorcery gets subject to a grimoire written in Auld Wyrmish. Normally, a tin dwarf wouldn't use a grimoire to control a Jolanti, and even less one in Auld Wyrmish.

But then, at some stage in their progression certain schools of draconic mysticism achieve mastery of sorcery. It is possible that this grimoire originated as some draconic master's study project which then somehow was inherited by Pavis.

Quote

(and of course, it’s explicitly not Malkioni and reads as blasphemous to them, should they be able to read it at all). 

Every enemy magic is "blasphemous" to some extent. That doesn't stop wizards from studying them anywhere. Over-reliance on such alien magic is a sure sign of depravity, but to analyze and understand such magic is the duty of orthodox zzaburi.

 

Quote

Draconic magic is mystic. Antithesis is the wrong way to think of it - to the extent that you might think of other forms of magic as antithetical to dragon powers, draconic Illumination is the synthesis of these opposing ideas. This is almost explicit in the way we talk about theism and draconic illumination - Orlanth destroying the dragons becomes Orlanth gaining dragon insight. 

So - I think of EWF sorcery as being totally different to draconic magic (like dragonnewt powers), but amenable to synthesis by those who have undergone draconic illumination, in ways that are hard to explain to the inilluminated. 

Quite a few different schools and dojos in Dragon Pass are heavily influenced by Kralori draconic wisdom, which has collaborated with sorcery since the Godtime.

Both Shang-Hsa and Godunya appear to have taught in Kerofinela. That's how Isgangdrang inherited the Immanent Mastery cult.

 

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I haven't seen anything within the EWF info that suggests that they were strong Sorcery users at all I am sorry to say.  They certainly employed sorcerers like Delecti, and it was certainly an age when the God Learners were dominating the world with sorcery, but the EWF were using massed triceratops units and dragon fire from dragon magic to control their empire, not sorcery. 

The EWF didn't use sorcery for draconic warfare, that's clear. Neither did they send sorcerers to fight the Zistorites. But they certainly had use for sorcerers in their internal affairs, especially on the fringes where the dragon dream of Dragon Pass grows weaker.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

That being said, the God Learners definitely infiltrated the Lightbringers at the time, and that is the likely source of the Lhankor Mhy Torvald Fragments, as it is documented that the God Learners liked to do Chalana Arroy and Lhankor Mhy hero quests as they were comparatively low risk/high reward.

LM has long been suspected to be of western origin, even without God Learner intervention. The God Learners were hardly interested in his sorcery tricks, but they were eager to copy the knowledge collected in the Great Libraries of LM.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

As for the synthesis of Sorcery and Draconic magic, the result is that they don't really work together at all. 

RQ3 had a system called Godunya's Magic which (in RQ3) looked like sorcery but used draconic runepoints.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Draconic magic suffers from all the spiritual attachments to intellect and reason, and Sorcery suffers from wasting time better spent on study of sorcery pursuing a fruitless and irrational non-human tradition.  There might be some value in using the Draconic Land Attunement for increasing sorcery spell range, but there are no records of it being done.

As said above, mastery and then overcoming sorcery is an element of certain draconic paths.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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13 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is a lot more going on in the EWF and even in Orlanthland than just draconic mysticism. The Pavis Plan, the Remakers, the City of Ten Thousand Magicians (where Akgarbash of Laurmal probably lectured), the two people having the contest for becoming the oldest person alive...

Sure, I don't doubt it.  As to people from anywhere outside Brithos trying to be the oldest person alive ...

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Only "Master of the Faceless King" is explicitely written in Auld Wyrmish, the other three or four grimoires are likely written in Old Pavic.

The Auld Wyrmish tainted Heortling dialect of Dragon Pass was the local language of the time, but is now called Old Pavic.

Yes, Old Pavic does relate to Auld Wyrmish from the EWF.  Agreed.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

It will be interesting to speculate why a Greatway Jolanti subject to Mostali sorcery gets subject to a grimoire written in Auld Wyrmish. Normally, a tin dwarf wouldn't use a grimoire to control a Jolanti, and even less one in Auld Wyrmish.

But then, at some stage in their progression certain schools of draconic mysticism achieve mastery of sorcery. It is possible that this grimoire originated as some draconic master's study project which then somehow was inherited by Pavis.

Okay, now this is beginning to sound more plausible, give that the plan was to use the giants of the Rockwoods to become the wingspan of the "cosmic mega dragon" they hoped to create.  Clearly Giants could be controlled by sorcery, but not Dragon Magic, and given they were to be a major skeletal structural element, either the giants were going to have to be Draconized, or sorcery would need to be employed.  (We never hear what the Mostali thought of the EWF Mega Dragon plan).  Still, this isn't "set in stone", it is merely plausible.  If that's Draconic sorcery, it's not impressive, even if there is no free Int requirement.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Every enemy magic is "blasphemous" to some extent. That doesn't stop wizards from studying them anywhere. Over-reliance on such alien magic is a sure sign of depravity, but to analyze and understand such magic is the duty of orthodox zzaburi.

Agreed.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Quite a few different schools and dojos in Dragon Pass are heavily influenced by Kralori draconic wisdom, which has collaborated with sorcery since the Godtime.

Both Shang-Hsa and Godunya appear to have taught in Kerofinela. That's how Isgangdrang inherited the Immanent Mastery cult.

It is a large and worrying blow when the EWF is adopting  a cobbled together God Learner Draconic Hsunchen cult in place of the "real thing".  Where would I find a reference to Isgangdrang bringing the Immanent Mastery Cult to Dragon Pass and the EWF?

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

The EWF didn't use sorcery for draconic warfare, that's clear. Neither did they send sorcerers to fight the Zistorites. But they certainly had use for sorcerers in their internal affairs, especially on the fringes where the dragon dream of Dragon Pass grows weaker.

I have no problem with the EWF using sorcerous mercenaries at the fringe of their empire.  What I was concerned about is that I had missed some sort of fundamental and central ambit of major policy in the EWF that was sorcerous. The potential role for sorcery in the creation of the Rockwoods Dragon meets that, but it must be inferred, for it isn't explicitly stated.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

LM has long been suspected to be of western origin, even without God Learner intervention. The God Learners were hardly interested in his sorcery tricks, but they were eager to copy the knowledge collected in the Great Libraries of LM.

Agreed.  It's an open secret.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

RQ3 had a system called Godunya's Magic which (in RQ3) looked like sorcery but used draconic runepoints.

On the contrary, these were not Draconic rune points, but Man-God rune points.  What Godunya's Cult represents is a synthesis of sorcery and theism.  His magic provides loyal worshipers with access to the Emperor's sorcery, for he is not a god.  I suspect the forthcoming rules for heroes in the new RQ:RiG rules will cover this.  Godunya is reverenced and adored, and is thus able to offer his blessings.  In what way are we seeing any Draconic element at play in what Godunya offers?  He himself may be in touch with his dragon self, but he doesn't offer any of that to his followers.  It should also be pointed out that Godunya magic is appallingly weak.  The amount of sacrificed POW needed to duplicate what even a weak sorcerer produces with free Int and MP makes Godunya a very unattractive prospect for a player character.  If this is Draconic Sorcery, it isn't great.

Edited by Darius West
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33 minutes ago, Darius West said:
14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Both Shang-Hsa and Godunya appear to have taught in Kerofinela. That's how Isgangdrang inherited the Immanent Mastery cult.

It is a large and worrying blow when the EWF is adopting  a cobbled together God Learner Draconic Hsunchen cult in place of the "real thing".  Where would I find a reference to Isgangdrang bringing the Immanent Mastery Cult to Dragon Pass and the EWF?

Heortling Mythology p.138 mentions the Path of Immanent Mastery. Isgangdrang's personal path was called Right Left-Hand Path and was another of those short-cuts.

About ShangHsa in Dragon Pass, that should be in here:

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/shang-hsa/

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I have no problem with the EWF using sorcerous mercenaries at the fringe of their empire.  What I was concerned about is that I had missed some sort of fundamental and central ambit of major policy in the EWF that was sorcerous. The potential role for sorcery in the creation of the Rockwoods Dragon meets that, but it must be inferred, for it isn't explicitly stated.

The pyramid-scheme techniques employed by the EWF in its later years look a lot like the chain-of-veneration techniques employed by the more hierarchical Malkioni sects. "A lot like" as in it's functionally indistinguishable.

The widespread adoption of (Sorcerous) tricks and shortcuts like this and Immanent Mastery-style methods ("Enlightenment is hard, what if I could just magically transform myself into an enlightened being? Oh, hey, Kwl Pwrz!") are the essence of the false-path entanglement problems that marked the end of true transcendent attainment among the EWF.

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3 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the contrary, these were not Draconic rune points, but Man-God rune points.  What Godunya's Cult represents is a synthesis of sorcery and theism.  His magic provides loyal worshipers with access to the Emperor's sorcery, for he is not a god.  ...  Godunya is reverenced and adored, and is thus able to offer his blessings.  ...   It should also be pointed out that Godunya magic is appallingly weak.  The amount of sacrificed POW needed to duplicate what even a weak sorcerer produces with free Int and MP makes Godunya a very unattractive prospect for a player character.  If this is Draconic Sorcery, it isn't great.

For myself, I wouldn't put too much weight in the calibration of niche RQ3 mechanics when drawing inferences about subtle setting matters.

However, the overall setup you describe there made a lightbulb go off in my head: Belintar

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As far as the EWF using sorcery goes, from History of the Heortling Peoples

Quote

It was Orlanthi-like in social structure and understanding, but different in its magic source. Clans of people were still of primary importance, and this vast Ring used methods handed down from ancestors for organizing tribes, temples and peoples. But instead of Orlanth and Ernalda the people worshipped dragons with sacrifices, wild dances and organized prayers (i.e.- theist, animist and sorcerous) that prepared them to enter the mystical sects.

The EWF certainly used its dragonnewt allies and their dinosaurs in war, and their mystics gained access to the sort of draconic magic normally only used by dragonnewts once they had experienced draconic illumination. But the EWF was an Empire, not just a mystic sect, and the Empire developed its own magical techniques of all kinds, very much including its own sorcery. The mystics sat at the top of the pyramid and directed things, but the magical work needed to perform complex magic on an imperial scale was very much mostly performed by the un-enlightened for practical reasons (just as the Lunar Empire has grand magical projects that rely mostly on the old Dara Happan magic and people). 

 

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I would absolutely not put much faith in RQ3 niche mechanics, especially as they are likely to be gone in RQG. I do not think the RQ3 Red Goddess magic will see a comeback, and I suspect likewise with the Godunya magic. We know a lot more about both sorcery and mysticism than we did back then. 

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  • 3 years later...
On 3/4/2017 at 2:02 AM, Byll said:

That could be looked at the other way around though, the less active and well resourced any long term Pavis Plan is, the less Ginkizzie and Pavis's Temple has to loose compared to the apparent gains from caving in to the Lunars. Why aren't more of Pavis's Daughters Pro Lunar? Granted a few are Sartar Exile stock, maybe the rest fret about Blue Moon Trolls in the Lunar scheme of things.

They could just be waiting to see how sustained the Lunar interest in Prax is, there's no point allying with occupiers who may be about to bug out.

Greg never revealed the full plan of Pavis to me (sadly), and I'm not sure if it was fully formed to him. He did tell me it was to do with Green Age magic, and this it was ongoing and maybe one day would come to completion. I wrote my campaign like a jigsaw with the few pieces that Greg revealed, and filling in the blanks. He did say that Mani of Mani's Clan was a player in the plan that nobody suspected. Of course he could have changed his mind, but at that time this was his thinking

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Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert'

Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson 

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26 minutes ago, Ian Thomson said:

Greg never revealed the full plan of Pavis to me (sadly), and I'm not sure if it was fully formed to him.

Oh here comes that spoiler guy again Bill, what’s he want now... 

Hey Ian, anything there need spoilers?

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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25 minutes ago, Ian Thomson said:

Greg never revealed the full plan of Pavis to me (sadly), and I'm not sure if it was fully formed to him. He did tell me it was to do with Green Age magic, and this it was ongoing and maybe one day would come to completion. I wrote my campaign like a jigsaw with the few pieces that Greg revealed, and filling in the blanks. He did say that Mani of Mani's Clan was a player in the plan that nobody suspected. Of course he could have changed his mind, but at that time this was his thinking

Well, I have to admit that Mani's Clan /Original Pavisites, have always been in interesting character idea for me. The whole 'I don't care what you clowns [Lunars/Sartarites/Nomads] are up to. I just want you GONE. I got Trolls and Chaos I have to deal with already, and if you're not gonna help then GTFO' attitude. Trying eek a living out the Rubble is hard enough without every third biped stopping you and asking where the treasure is. 😁

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11 minutes ago, svensson said:

Well, I have to admit that Mani's Clan /Original Pavisites, have always been in interesting character idea for me. The whole 'I don't care what you clowns [Lunars/Sartarites/Nomads] are up to. I just want you GONE. I got Trolls and Chaos I have to deal with already, and if you're not gonna help then GTFO' attitude. Trying eek a living out the Rubble is hard enough without every third biped stopping you and asking where the treasure is. 😁

Greg was clear that Mani's Clan were Oasis Folk who had been at this site since the GodTime (or since time began) or whatever, and that Pavis came to this location specifically because Mani's Clan had their center of magic here. Maybe there used to be a lagoon or something off the river that had it's own spirit like an oasis?

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Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert'

Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson 

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6 minutes ago, Ian Thomson said:

Greg was clear that Mani's Clan were Oasis Folk who had been at this site since the GodTime (or since time began) or whatever, and that Pavis came to this location specifically because Mani's Clan had their center of magic here. Maybe there used to be a lagoon or something off the river that had it's own spirit like an oasis?

Didn't the location get chosen by the Jruseli Cradle-snatchers at Robcradle? Paragua then included Mani Tor inside his fence. Were he and his followers discriminating enough to spare Mani's village after stomping down on Robcradle?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Didn't the location get chosen by the Jruseli Cradle-snatchers at Robcradle? Paragua then included Mani Tor inside his fence. Were he and his followers discriminating enough to spare Mani's village after stomping down on Robcradle?

I am 99% certain that Greg said this was also why the Jrusteli chose this spot. They too were after the Green Age magic. So destroying Mani's Clan would have been counterproductive.

Paragua I can't recall what Greg said about that. Maybe he had a clear sense that Mani's people were just regular oasis folk, and simply had no beef with them.

Edited by Ian Thomson

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Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert'

Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson 

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1 hour ago, Ian Thomson said:

Greg was clear that Mani's Clan were Oasis Folk who had been at this site since the GodTime (or since time began) or whatever, and that Pavis came to this location specifically because Mani's Clan had their center of magic here. Maybe there used to be a lagoon or something off the river that had it's own spirit like an oasis?

But unlike the downtrodden and oppressed Oasis People of the open plains, Mani's Clan was able to hold on to what they had. Robcradle was founded in something like 750, so for 875 years Mani's Clan has fought off God Learners, Trolls, Chaos, Nomads, and anybody else who came along.

No, they're not the 'baddest mofo in the Valley' necessarily, but they ARE survivors in a way that Horn Gate, Weiss, and other Oasis Peoples are most assuredly not. They're able to hold their own without getting comfortable with somebody's boot on their necks and most factions have a certain respect for their tenacity.

As for location spirits, most locations in Glorantha have spirits associated with them. It almost Shinto-like with the kami and all [and while I don't know a lot about Greg's personal beliefs... each shaman is a faith unto themselves... I can see quite a bit of Shinto in the Gloranthan world-view]. What matters in a Gloranthan magical sense is being able to make friends with the spirits, nurture both the spirit [to strengthen it] and your relationship to it, and apply the benefits of that relationship in the Mundane World. And ask the Counts of Sun County or Enkizzi in Sartar if that isn't more complicated than it seems...

[BTW, I never considered Mani's Clan to be Oasis People before, but it does dovetail nicely with everything we know about them.]

Edited by svensson
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24 minutes ago, svensson said:

[BTW, I never considered Mani's Clan to be Oasis People before, but it does dovetail nicely with everything we know about them.]

Thanks for this discussion cos I am remembering more of what Greg said (and can't remember if I put it all into the Companions or not)

When I asked him how they survived he said they were able to go and hide in the Otherworld if that was necessary. He probably said more specifics, or with more eloquence, but I only remember the essence. I think he said that this ability was related to their Green Age magic and to why the God Learners and Pavis chose this spot. (Green Age juju was strong here.) Check out whichever original Companion had Mani's Clan in it. I may have written some of this there. I don't have time right now as am busy editing up Vol 2 of the re-release and it's taking many many hours

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Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert'

Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson 

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7 minutes ago, Ian Thomson said:

I may have written some of this there. I don't have time right now as am busy editing up Vol 2 of the re-release and it's taking many many hours

All donations gratefully accepted 😆

We're all stoked to see the finished product and see how it meshes with @MOB's Sandheart and so forth. Pavis and Prax have been such a large part of my gamer life that an update is really exciting for me to look forward to.

Now if I could just get someone to write about my favorite nomads, the Rhino People [chuckle]

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9 minutes ago, svensson said:

Now if I could just get someone to write about my favorite nomads, the Rhino People [chuckle]

Write a nice piece and I'll put it in the Companion series. Rhino's ahoy! :)

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Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert'

Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/3/2022 at 3:22 PM, Joerg said:

Didn't the location get chosen by the Jruseli Cradle-snatchers at Robcradle? Paragua then included Mani Tor inside his fence. Were he and his followers discriminating enough to spare Mani's village after stomping down on Robcradle?

If I recall correctly (and I'm pretty sure I do) I asked Greg about this, and he said that Mani's Clan were protected like all the oasis people. Same as why the Praxians don't kill the oasis folk. They are 'allowed'. Greg also definitely said <spoilers> that the clan can go hide inside green age magic for as long as they need, and then later pop out again and rebuild.

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Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert'

Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson 

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11 hours ago, Ian Thomson said:

... the clan can go hide inside green age magic for as long as they need, and then later pop out again and rebuild.

I also suspect that there is some other stealth/hide/subterfuge/etc magic going on.  Something that lets them keep a MUCH greater part of their power and identity... without ever even being noticed by the "great powers" that play through.

Because the Godlearners explicitly came looking for magic to steal... but didn't steal it from Mani's clan.  The Lunars were also sniffing for magic (oh, sure, there was also the river access down to the ocean port, and they wanted that too; but I don't think we ever see the Lunars pass up on grabbing Other Peoples' Magic... when they can).

And if you think either of those groups were "unable" to go a-viking into the Green Age, you've got another think coming!

===

Thinking aloud, here...

  • Maybe this ties in somehow to Black Fang.  They too fly under the radar, are hard to find (even when searched-for with magic); maybe the founder was from Mani's Clan, knows those secrets?  Maybe Black Fang still IS:  assassination is one of the classic tools of resistance to an occupying oppressor...
  • Maybe the Prax-wide "Hidden Greens" phenomenon is more than a poetic name; maybe they (or at least some of them) are "hidden" even from heroquesting searchers.
  • Maybe at Earthfall, Genert didn't die... he hid!  He split himself into multiples... the Copper Sands, the Hyenas, etc.  Much as the Earth Goddesses hid by sleeping underground; only Genert somehow went too far, or Chaos sealed his return, or etc...  But, Genert's followers still have extra modes of "spiritual hiding" available.

I don't know that it's so, even IMG... but there does seem to be a common thread weaving through this tapestry...

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12 minutes ago, g33k said:

 

I was looking last night of my print out of some (sadly not all) of the emails I shared with Greg

In the information above you mention:

- one thing pretty much exactly summing up something Greg stated explicitly

- one thing that is a red herring but intriguing to consider

- one thing that is spot on the button according to what he and I hashed out, and something I am now free to write about more explicitly

- and one thing that correctly observes such a secret, but then diverts in a different direction with it

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Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson 

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