BRP - How good for "newbies"?

[PoppySeed45]

Situation: I'm running a D&D 5e campaign now, which will wind down in three or so more sessions (we play monthly, so, three months and it's done). After that, for a change of pace, I'd like to finally realize my ambition to run a BRP game. Mostly, this is motivated by one of my players, who is very new to RPGs (she's played exactly three sessions) and I figure, if I want to switch games (which I do; I don't like doing more than one good, solid, story arc) then I want it to be something "easy" for a person relatively new to RPGs to get. Don't want to change gears to something like, say, GURPS or Burning Wheel (yet...).

So, my question is, how friendly is BRP for the relatively new person? Whatever genre/setting I decide (and it's a toss up between something Delta Green-ish or something with a flavor of spy movies like the Bourne Series) I'd be using the BGB mostly (unless I find some monographs that magically fit), and without a lot of the options. Though I'm re-reading the book now to figure that out (definitely no Strike Ranks, for example, or Hit Locations). 

Thoughts? How good for the newbie, and why? In a lot of ways, D&D 5e was perfect as a first game, with it's easy character generation and touching on the genre it created for itself (it helped that this new player knew games like Planescape and Dragon Age). 

[g33k]

Most of the BRP family is actually GREAT for newbies.  The "quickstart" rules has several 1-shot modules you might start with, if folks wanted a sampler-buffet... and the PDF is free:  http://www.chaosium.com/basic-roleplaying-brp/

But give "Hit Locations" a try -- they work surprisingly-well, quick and colorful.  Here's how I was introduced:

• "rack" the dice in your hand, in a line across your palm:  d100-to-hit / d20-hit-location / Damage-Dice
• Roll sideways, "spilling" them out such that there's just a touch less impetus to each die as it leaves your hand; with a few rolls to practice, they almost-always end up in order
• Read off the resulting "story" the dice tell, eg:
• "27!  That's a HIT to the... -11- ABDOMEN doing ... 5 points of damage"

Note that the above is ONE roll; each player should have the dice "racked" in-hand when their turn comes up.  This goes FASTER than the classic D&D:

• roll d20, add BAB/proficiency/STR/DEX/magic/whatever, announce final result
• Wait to see if it hits the (often unknown) AC of the foe
• roll damage dice
• Announce damage

It LOOKS slower (like longer steps)... but my experience is the d100/hit-location combats ran FASTER; I'm sure a big part of it was the pre-racked dice, but it's ALSO just faster to do a roll-under-known-skill, as opposed to roll-and-accumulate-pluses-and-compare-vs-possibly-unknown-AC

Go ahead and grab some pre-gen's, practice the dice-throw, then run a few rounds of combat; I think you'll be pleased.

***

Pick any genre with well-known tropes, and run with it -- a versatile set of game-rules (such as BRP) can embrace a great many options, and your note about well-known genre conventions can be fulfilled without needing specific rules.

But just in case, here are a few ...

Blood Tide will run you some "Pirates of the Caribbean" action (or other pirate-y goodness). 

D101 Games has The Company which is modern Special Forces; and River of Heaven, which is far-future sci-fi.

C7 has The Laundry -- kind of like "Delta Green" done British (based on the excellent Charles Stross stories)

John Snead's modern-urban-fantasy After the Vampire Wars will be moving over to the "Mythras" line, but can probably be found in BRP flavors either used or somewhere still in the new/retail pipeline.

Speaking of "Mythras" (aka RQ6, before the re-branding), I'd normally recommend Classic Fantasy (which also has a BRP edition) if converting-D&D-players is a thing, but it sounds like you want a new genre, not just a new ruleset... for that, M-Space can easily run STrek, SWars, Firefly, Traveller-esque, and other sci-fi games; Luther Arkwright is a "flawed heroes save the multiverse" game based on the seminal British comic of the same name.

Or just roll-your-own with BGB + maybe a Monograph or two, just like you're thinking of doing...

 

 

[clarence]

My experience is that BRP works very well with newbies. The simple concept of the percentage roll-under mechanic of most actions is quickly grasped by most. 

I rarely use hit locations though, but as g33k points out, it's easy enough once you get the hang of it. And you can always start out simple and add more complexity as you go. 

My only other recommendation is to plan for a separate mini-session to roll up player characters, perhaps with a quick "training scenario" at the end. This way, it will be easier for new players to get to know the rules.  

[Baragei]

I think BRP is very newbie-friendly.

Pros: easy to grasp and easy to use percentile system, default powerlevel makes characters act like characters, low on metagaming and "uhm.."-situations, and a wealth of background material to use/steal.

Cons: first impression (character generation) is more than a bit more involved and amorphous than many competitors, doesn't really do 4colour and high heroics out of the box and, most pressing, it isn't D&D.

[Atgxtg]

I think most of the BRP related RPGs are fairly newbie friendly. BRP itself (that is the Big Gold Book) is less so than most of the others, mostly because it collects various systems, options and variants that have appeared over the decades in the RPGs that Chaosium  has produced. IMO, you are probably better off starting with something like RuneQuest, Strombringer or Magic World as your core system to get clearer, and more consistent rules. You can always port over stuff from the BGB or elsewhere that you want or need. 

If you have it, the original Magic World (from the Worlds of Wonder boxed set) is an excellent intro.

 

I think the biggest obstacle you are going to  with newbies isn't so much how hard it is for them to pick up the game mechanics, but how hard it will be for them to grasp the differences in play style, tone and setting. D&D is much more forgiving to players who are reckless or make bad decisions. Healing, limb regeneration, and raising characters from the dead is common, maiming and permanent player character death are uncommon occurrences. I've seen groups of D&Ders get shell shocked and/or angry when trying out RuneQuest when someone got killed rather quickly or (even worse reaction)maimed . Taking off a limb in combat without high level magic is  kinda considered "out of bounds" to D&Ders.

Also, experienced D&Ders tend to have worked up some ideas on how to do things that don't always work out in other RPGs. When things don't go as the players expects they look to assign blame and usually decide the fault is with the GM and/or game system rather than with their tried and true methods. Foir example I've slaughtered A LOT of D&D players in other RPGS simply because they tend to try a frontal charge against archers. In AD&D the tactic was sound. Fighters did a lot more damage in melee, and the arrow or two they took in damage didn't have much of an impact on their hit points. But in RQ those arrows hurt, and can easily incapacitate or kill a PC. 

 

So you really have to explain that to them ("What the heck is an impale? Whaddya mean my sword arm is broken, it was just a 4 point hit?"), several times ( "Yeah, yeah, the game is deadly, blah, blah. We get it already. We're not new to gaming ya know.") , and probably even run a mock fight or three ( "If that bandit didn't get so lucky and roll that critical, He;d never would have killed me with just one arrow.")  to get the point across. That will tend to make the players somewhat gun-shy of combat in the new system, and might even discourage them from wanting to play it. But that's a lot better than the instant hatred the game will get if the players find out the hard way. 

 

 

 

[TRose]

 IN my opinion BRP is very easy to teach new players but it is harder for a GM to learn  how to run  a proper game.

 Mostly cause combat so deadly and a New GM can kill of a party unless he very careful. The GM has to learn how to pull his punch or he going to have a TPK , even if the players do everything right.. 6 Militia men with heavy cross bows are no threat to average Party in a D&D game. In BRP they can kill off a party of experienced characters  with just a tiny amount of luck . Toss a Great Troll who just starting out and has only 30% chance with his maul at the players and some one might end up as a smear on the ground.

[Simlasa]

Hopefully, if they're 'newbies' they won't arrive with too many D&D habits... though modern video games tend to push some of the same. Our Pathfinder GM had a guy stomp out of a game when he was told that his dead PC didn't get a 'do over' (as in restarting from a 'saved game' state, I guess).

The kids I've introduced to the game have been pretty good at taking my descriptions and warnings at face value... they assume a bear/tiger/dinosaur is really dangerous... they avoid obvious traps/ambushes... and, surprisingly, didn't attack random strangers they'd meet along the road.

One kid kind of tested me, to see if his PC could actually die, if I'd let him get himself killed... picked a dumb fight and lost... and after that he was suitably cautious.

BRP was really easy for them to learn and get going... I just asked them what sort of character they wanted and then we made it. Without much concern for 'balance' or being persnickety about how well it fit the particular setting.
 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Simlasa

[KPhan2121]

I ran BRP with a bunch D&D Players and they had a hard time of it adapting to the conventions of the game. One of the first things they got really confused by about was rolling for defense "Wait, I need to roll to parry every attack?" That sort of thing.

Character creation is more involved, even if it's not necessarily more complex. I've seen my players agonize where to put the last 5 skill points into during character creation. My players also had misconceptions on what a good skill rating was (Basically anything under 90% was considered shit), one of the things that I stressed was that difficulty was done differently in BRP compared to D&D. In D&D an easy test just had a low DC (Which the players don't get to see). An easy test is double your base skill rating.

One of the players was obsessed with being tanky and was confused that he had slightly less HP than other characters. He didn't realize how many attacks he could soak up with his armor and high parry/dodge skill. I had to explain it to him.

Once you get the ball rolling, it becomes pretty easy and intuitive for both the GM and players. I had the first session be like a tutorial for the players. Had a pretty easy combat encounter. Had them do some skill rolls and got them to do a resistance check to open a stone door.

One of the things I found that works great for every game I've ran was to have a "Fiction First" Policy. Have the players describe what their characters are doing, what they hope to accomplish first. We determined what mechanics are used and the consequences of failure afterwards.

For the most part, BRP is easy if your players have no preconception of how an RPG is supposed to "feel" like. Players used to other RPGs may have some difficulties adjusting to BRP.

[Mankcam]

Totally agree with the 'fiction first' concept regarding manuvers, spot rules and sucht. I often use this as a gauge of how much I like a rpg's game mechanics. 

BRP is probably one of the first systems that did this quite well, and still one of the best.

 

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, TRose said:

 IN my opinion BRP is very easy to teach new players but it is harder for a GM to learn  how to run  a proper game.

 Mostly cause combat so deadly and a New GM can kill of a party unless he very careful. The GM has to learn how to pull his punch or he going to have a TPK , even if the players do everything right.. 6 Militia men with heavy cross bows are no threat to average Party in a D&D game. In BRP they can kill off a party of experienced characters  with just a tiny amount of luck . Toss a Great Troll who just starting out and has only 30% chance with his maul at the players and some one might end up as a smear on the ground.

Yeah, there is nothing like Challenge Rating to use as a guide. I'd advise going with very weak opponents early on. Low skill scores (25-30%), low damage, and low armor. Ome of the differences between game systems is that in D&D the players are expecting to get hit and take damage. A fight where they don't is considered too easy. I once mauled a group in RQ because they didn't know how to react to getting inured properly, and just shrugged off the hits they were taking until it was too late. 

[TRose]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, there is nothing like Challenge Rating to use as a guide. I'd advise going with very weak opponents early on. Low skill scores (25-30%), low damage, and low armor. Ome of the differences between game systems is that in D&D the players are expecting to get hit and take damage. A fight where they don't is considered too easy. I once mauled a group in RQ because they didn't know how to react to getting inured properly, and just shrugged off the hits they were taking until it was too late. 

 For me I liked to start players off fighting things like weapon snakes(Too bad some later editions  did not have them) and ruble runners. The second mission I sent my players on was to retrieve some sheep that some how ended up in a neighboring Clans Pasture after the two  children( One the little sister of one of the players) that where watching them got beat up. They where told to retrieve the sheep, teach those heroes you should not to beat up kids but not to kill anyone or start a blood feud . I wanted my players to learn that in Runequest you don't always need to fight until the other side is all dead.

[Jeff]

BRP (and by that I mean the family of games that include Call of Cthulhu and RuneQuest, and not just the BGB) is IMO more truly "newbie" friendly than the D20 family of games. The ability to do anything is expressed as a percentile chance of success. So if I want to shoot something with my gun, the GM just says, "you have a 60% chance of hitting it". That makes the core mechanics very intuitive to brand new players. Now as you build up from the core mechanics there is plenty of non-intuitive stuff that players need to learn - spells (if used), "pushing", the amount of damage something does, etc., - but once the foundations of those are learned, it flows pretty easily. 

Now, players who are coming having learned (and perhaps mastered) another rules system may have some initial difficulties as they have to "unlearn" assumptions from that rules system, but for the true newbie, BRP games are extremely easily to grasp. 

[g33k]

On 3/7/2017 at 0:03 AM, clarence said:

I rarely use hit locations though, but as g33k points out, it's easy enough once you get the hang of it. And you can always start out simple and add more complexity as you go. 

Honestly, the hit-location rules are a big part of why I love the system:  sack-of-HP's has always struck me as meh, and the baked-in effects (losing the ability to walk on a 0-HP leg, lift something with a 0-HP arm, knocked-out by a 0-HP head, etc...) just makes for a more-flavorful and "realistic" effect (YMMV).  And, as mentioned, it plays at least as-fast (and mostly faster) than D&D-style combat.

Many modern "narative" games go straight to "Injuries" and "Consequences" and such-like, newfangled & hifalutin' folderol, skipping the "HP" concept entirely... But Runequest had those locked-in and done right 40 years ago!

That said:  I too abandon hit-locations once weapon-tech gets beyond black-powder-ish... hit locations get less relevant -- most people hit by modern gunfire are mostly-disabled (not fully-functional-except-in-the-injured-hit-location); fully-modern and sci-fi weapons?  Yeah, hit-locations NOT a thing!

 

[colinabrett]

I had the opposite experience with my son. We had played several scenarios and settings with BRP/BGB and Magic World, then he expressed an interest in learning about AD&D (I have a load of 2nd Ed books) and Pathfinder. He wanted something "simple" he could DM for his friends. So we went through the character generation and a basic dungeon bash, after which we abandoned the whole concept and went back to Magic World. 

So, for newbies, I'd say D&D/Pathfinder are more complex than BRP. Given that the entire character generation process is summarised into a two page flow chart in the BGB, it seems to me that getting into the game with minimal fuss, is a major selling point for BRP.

Colin

[colinabrett]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

That said:  I too abandon hit-locations once weapon-tech gets beyond black-powder-ish... hit locations get less relevant -- most people hit by modern gunfire are mostly-disabled (not fully-functional-except-in-the-injured-hit-location); fully-modern and sci-fi weapons?  Yeah, hit-locations NOT a thing!

 

Maybe it's the wargamer side of me that accepts "one hit, one kill", which is why I don't use hit locations. As a rough illustration, the average human in BRP (SIZ 10, CON 10) has 10 or 11 Hit Points. A broadsword does D8+1 or an average of 5.5 (before any damage bonus); a medium pistol does D8, for an average of 4.5. The broadsword hit is enough to half kill our average human, the pistol only needs a slightly above average roll for the same effect.

So my point is that, given that the target is half dead, does it really matter where he was hit?

Colin

[Atgxtg]

19 minutes ago, colinabrett said:

Maybe it's the wargamer side of me that accepts "one hit, one kill", which is why I don't use hit locations. As a rough illustration, the average human in BRP (SIZ 10, CON 10) has 10 or 11 Hit Points. A broadsword does D8+1 or an average of 5.5 (before any damage bonus); a medium pistol does D8, for an average of 4.5. The broadsword hit is enough to half kill our average human, the pistol only needs a slightly above average roll for the same effect.

So my point is that, given that the target is half dead, does it really matter where he was hit?

Colin

Yeah, for example he might be trying to shoot back, and if he got shot in his gun arm or not could really matter to whoever he is shooting at.  

[Atgxtg]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Now, players who are coming having learned (and perhaps mastered) another rules system may have some initial difficulties as they have to "unlearn" assumptions from that rules system, but for the true newbie, BRP games are extremely easily to grasp. 

LOL! I've done the Yoda voice to D&Ders trying out other RPGs telling them they "must unlearn what they have learned." It's surprising how difficult it is for most hardocre D&Ders to do that, though. They usually trust to their previous experiences and fight me every step of the way, sticking to their standard tactics until the bitter end.

The first time I really got one of them to change was when running the old Jame Bond RPG. Things went horribly wrong (D&D thinking again) leading to one character be separated (i.e. he was leftamong the living) from the rest of the group . Surrounded, outnumbered and outgunned, the player figured he was dead no matter what he did and decided to try a new approach and listen to the advice the about how to play the game that the GM had been given him for months. He threw down his (empty) pistol, and surrendered.

To his surprise (the player still tells the story to this day, noting is was his most successful outing in said RPG). the PC was taken captive; brought inside the Major Villain's headquarters; was congratulated by the Major Villain for being a worth opponent; had the Major Villain explain his plan to him in detail; and then found himself standing right next to the Major Villain's master computer while he still had his Q-Branch issued Pen-Grenade in his shirt pocket. He found it remarkably easy to thwart the Major Villain, blow up his HQ, and escape in the confusion. It was much easy their the "shoot through the front door" and fight to the death approach that the group had adhered to for the previous month.

 

True newbies tend to do things like use common sense, and try to play the adventure and setting and find things much easy to understand.  

 

 

[g33k]

29 minutes ago, colinabrett said:

Maybe it's the wargamer side of me that accepts "one hit, one kill", which is why I don't use hit locations. As a rough illustration, the average human in BRP (SIZ 10, CON 10) has 10 or 11 Hit Points. A broadsword does D8+1 or an average of 5.5 (before any damage bonus); a medium pistol does D8, for an average of 4.5. The broadsword hit is enough to half kill our average human, the pistol only needs a slightly above average roll for the same effect.

So my point is that, given that the target is half dead, does it really matter where he was hit?

Colin

I think "one hit, one kill" is excellent for wargames with "small" or "light" units, and RPG Mook Rules.  But fiction and history alike are rife with "walking wounded" marching with the fighting army, and people fighting on in battle, despite injuries.  1hit1kill is (to me, & ymmv) a mass-combat shortcut, and unsatisfying for PC's and "meaningful" foes.

But sure, let's take that Broadsword's 5.5HP's and put them onto an "average" person (I discount an "damage bonus" from the attacker, since we are assuming an average no-extra-HP defender).

Furthermore, let's say the victim is unarmored, because I don't want to get into the weeds of "rolled-vs-fixed AP" and "can we layer armor" and "how many AP's is rhino-hide worth," and ... OMG it's a thought-experiment on a forum !!!!   mK?  

Bag of HP's model -- the defender is "half dead" and ... what?  Fights on unimpaired, because "Positive HP's"?  Drops from some "over half HPs in one blow" overdamage rule (which in many cases looks a LOT like "only has 5HPs to begin with") ...?  Makes a CON check to avoid dropping from overdamage... and THEN fights on unimpaired, because "CON Check" ...?   Or ... ?

Hit-Locations model -- If the shield covered it, defender is uninjured & fights on!  Some hit-locations (head, chest, abdomen) -- the combatant falls down, incapacitated & bleeding (maybe "bleeding out") but also:  unconcious if it was a head-wound; likely to die (of sepsis if nothing else) hit in the abdomen; wheezing and ALSO likely to die (though less-likely, it's more survivable) from a chest-wound.  But an arm?  Yeah, he can still do stuff with the other arm!  Or he can RUN AWAY!  Hit in the leg?  He falls, no doubt; but he's conscious and can still ACT.  Dramatically different outcomes from the "same" 5.5HP's of damage.  We likes them, my Precious... yessss, we does!  We LIKES the different stories that happen...

 

[colinabrett]

@g33k and @atgxtg

Good points and food for thought for my next campaign. 

Colin

[soltakss]

I'd go with Mythras or Legend rather than BRP, personally, although BRP is more flexible as it has a lot of options.

BRP is very easy to pick up - Roll under your skill on D100 to succeed, applying modifiers where necessary. Combat and magic are a bit more complicated, but not particularly so. I think that someone could be up and ready to go in one gaming session.

[Jeff]

15 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

LOL! I've done the Yoda voice to D&Ders trying out other RPGs telling them they "must unlearn what they have learned." It's surprising how difficult it is for most hardocre D&Ders to do that, though. They usually trust to their previous experiences and fight me every step of the way, sticking to their standard tactics until the bitter end.

The first time I really got one of them to change was when running the old Jame Bond RPG. Things went horribly wrong (D&D thinking again) leading to one character be separated (i.e. he was leftamong the living) from the rest of the group . Surrounded, outnumbered and outgunned, the player figured he was dead no matter what he did and decided to try a new approach and listen to the advice the about how to play the game that the GM had been given him for months. He threw down his (empty) pistol, and surrendered.

To his surprise (the player still tells the story to this day, noting is was his most successful outing in said RPG). the PC was taken captive; brought inside the Major Villain's headquarters; was congratulated by the Major Villain for being a worth opponent; had the Major Villain explain his plan to him in detail; and then found himself standing right next to the Major Villain's master computer while he still had his Q-Branch issued Pen-Grenade in his shirt pocket. He found it remarkably easy to thwart the Major Villain, blow up his HQ, and escape in the confusion. It was much easy their the "shoot through the front door" and fight to the death approach that the group had adhered to for the previous month.

 

True newbies tend to do things like use common sense, and try to play the adventure and setting and find things much easy to understand.  

 

 

Yes, true newbies are actually often better gamers than those who assume they have to conform to the tropes of D&D or FPS computer games. I find such newbies pick up BRP style games very quickly. 

[Mankcam]

Sometimes having all the skills listed on the character sheet can be a bit overwhelming to new players.

I get around this by making my own sheets and only typing in the skills that have been developed during char gen, and I always organise them under Skill Categories (even for CoC I use the Skill Categories from BRP BGB).

This way the sheet isn't overloaded with 'skill bloat', and the Skill Category headings make it easy to locate skills.

The actual percentile concept is an easy measure to grasp. My 11 yr old understands it quite well, and would think it odd to measure RPG skills in any other way. 

The biggest issue I have had is that some players find it difficult to grasp the idea of rolling low is better than rolling high in regards to percentile dice, feeling that it is counter-intuitive. Obviously they just don't get the notion that it is a %.

Many D&D players often initially feel that the spell lists for RQ are lacking in quantity, although after a while many prefer the actual magic mechanics to their 'fire and forget' spells from D&D.  Sometimes they have an issue with Basic/Spirit Magic being available to everyone in RQ, but once they see that this is a narrative setting-specific counterpart of a Feats/Advantage system then they are often cool with it.

I have found that players from most non-D20 games adapt easier than those only raised on D&D fare. Players who are completely green to RPGs are often the best as they tend to focus on the narrative of what they can do, and many of these grasp the concept of percentile skills very quickly.

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Mankcam

[Hyfaidd]

 I just finished a Chapter of campaign, one player who only knew D&D as far as I know, wants to run his next game using BRP!! He just loved the ability to have the character he wants not limited to class etc.

[Atgxtg]

On 3/9/2017 at 5:03 AM, Jeff said:

Yes, true newbies are actually often better gamers than those who assume they have to conform to the tropes of D&D or FPS computer games. I find such newbies pick up BRP style games very quickly. 

What often happens is that early on, the newbies tend to defer to the "experienced gamers". Then once they see how THAT works out, they decide they couln't do any worse if they made thier own decisions. But there tends to be a  window where they are vulnerable to suggestions from the vets. I recall one campaign where I chastised a new player for constantly listening to one of the "more experienced" players. I told him that if he absolutely had to listen to one of the other players, why he have to pick the guys who kept getting killed every other week? Why not listen to one of the survivors instead?

[PoppySeed45]

On 3/13/2017 at 1:07 AM, Hyfaidd said:

 I just finished a Chapter of campaign, one player who only knew D&D as far as I know, wants to run his next game using BRP!! He just loved the ability to have the character he wants not limited to class etc.

Interesting! As I said, I'm really looking hard at BRP for my next campaign. Still trying to decide between it, Fate, and GURPS. I know, all over the place, but each has their issues. BRP might be the best "compromise", especially for the almost total newbie in our group.