Money in Orlanthi Society

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Asrelia is the keeper and distributor of the deep wealth. She is also the grandmother of the three earth goddesses. All of this cries out to her being the chief financial deity in Esrolia and the lands influenced by Esrolia.

Yes, Asrelia is the treasurer in Esrolia, keeping such for decisions by the Queens.  She also controls the granaries and when such supplies are doled out.

[Jeff]

Gloranthan coinage is based on silver. While both gold and copper are used as coins, silver is by far the most common monetary metal. The Middle Sea Empire first introduced silver coinage into Glorantha. The basic currency in Dragon Pass and Prax is the lunar (abbreviated as L), a silver coin weighing a little more than 4 grams (1/8 of an ounce). Most coins in circulation were minted by the Lunar Empire and are stamped with the symbols of the Red Goddess. Before the Lunar Conquest, silver coins called guilders were minted by the various city guilds in Sartar and Pavis. All these coins are roughly equivalent in value. A cow is worth about 20 L.

The first coinage of the world was gold, brought to the people by the enigmatic Gold Wheel Dancers. In their honor, gold coins are still called wheels. Gold, however, is scarce and very valuable. One golden wheel equals 20 L. Gold is still mainly used as a means of settling debts between rulers rather than by individuals.

The dwarves invented copper coins, but they were adopted by Issaries to facilitate exchange between peoples. The copper coin is called a clack, or often just a copper. It takes ten clacks to equal one lunar.

--------------

As for the issue of banking, temples serve as storage centers for grain, livestock, precious metals, and other valuables. Most cults do not charge their initiates (or those of associated gods) to store goods with the temple; Lay Members typically pay 5% of the value of the goods.

Important temples serve as local centers of economic activity. Some temples make loans, charging an annual interest of 3D6+6%. Failure to repay a loan often results in a visit from the cult’s Spirit of Retribution or worse.

Most temples do not recognize deposits made with other temples, even of the same cult. A deposit made to the major temple of Ernalda in Clearwine cannot be redeemed at the great temple of Ernalda in Nochet. A notable exception is the Issaries cult. Deposits made at an Issaries temple are recorded with a sealed letter of credit that can be redeemed at another Issaries temple, thereby facilitating long-distance trade.

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

 

Uh, no, not really. While modern banking came from this, there were lending institutions that existing back in the ancient era. "Credit" existed long before that. In fact, it was an easy concet to accept back in the days where most transactions were done without money. And while compound instrest might not have existed as such, the idea of interest on loans did exist, as was the concet of increasing payments for falling behind. I think that is actually how compound interest got started. For example, lets say someone has a loan out for 100 coins with 10% interest (payment of 10 coins just to break even). He misses a payment, and the value of his debt is increased by the amount missed (10 coing) and he know owns 110 coins. While technically not considered compound interest, the effect is identical. 

 

I didn't write "credit" I wrote "credit creation".  Totally different.  I agree that "credit" as a concept is very old indeed, as is the notion of charging interest (compound interest however is a different beast again).  I promise you I was not talking about credit.  There are loads of clips on youtube regarding credit creation if you want a 4 minute primer.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Darius West

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, rust said:

If these are the prerequisites, the Knights Templars were bankers during the High Middle Ages, although they circumvented the usury problem by charging "rent" instead of interest ("Mortgage your farmland to get a loan and give us the produce until you can pay back the loan.").

The Knights Templar are an interesting example and it is good you raised them.  The attached description of the KT as "bankers" is technically false and was attached by latter day historians who didn't quite know how the term "banking" is defined.  Sadly much history around the KT is of the "woolly" variety so it is often difficult to get an accurate picture of what really went on.  The example you cite about the Templars loopholing the usury laws via the charging of rents is unequivocally true, and allowed them to lend money at interest and some people would regard that as banking.  The Templars didn't however engage in the important (if not definitive) banking practice of "credit creation".    That is why the Italians specifically lay claim to being the first bankers; they had double entry book keeping allied to compound interest lending and credit creation during the early renaissance.  The Medici system for avoiding the usury laws was reliant on currency exchange; they would lend local coin (normally somewhat debased) on the contractual basis of repayment of any loan in high value currency like the Austrian Thaler (the origin of the word "dollar").  The Italian city states were also the first to come up with a government bond market.  Most of these financial shenannigans were as a result of Italian city states and their ongoing wars, as the various minor powers were trying to find a way of financing their wars.  It is an interesting thing to note that credit creation is what financed the art of the renaissance, the discovery of the new world, and the drive to colonize, as well as all the attendant horrors.  That is why I suspect that the only Gloranthan societies that would have banks would be the Jrusteli and the Vadeli; the Jrusteli because they were colonizers, and the Vadeli because they are evil opportunists.  Casino town and its bank would be a surviving example of the former.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Darius West

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Darius, don't try to argue Biblical texts with a minister of the Gospel. Matthew 25 verse 27.

"then you should have invested my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received what was my own with interest."

Deposit, interest, ergo banking.

Linguistically, would you argue that the Romans didn't use swords since the weapon was named a gladius?

So where did the term "banker" come from ?  That is a mistranslation in the KJV1611 as the term didn't exist in biblical times, and nor is it an accurate translation of the practices at the time.  The term bank comes from the Italian word "banca", and Italian didn't exist as a language yet in the time of Jesus (only Latin), but the term "bank" did exist during the time of the KJV1611.  A more accurate translation would be "usurer" or "money lender".  Certainly the practices of lending money and charging interest were known in the time of Jesus, but those things alone are NOT banking.  Banking is a later conglomeration of financial services that has its realization in Italy and includes credit creation and compound interest, supported by double entry accounting procedures, and other whistles and bells.  At least that is the opinion of economic historians on the topic and I am inclined to agree with them.

I also find your use of "argumentum ad verecundiam" does nothing to enchance your argument as while you may have studied various biblical scriptures, how many hours have you put into studying the history of economics, which is, after all, the more relevant field with regards to this matter?

Edited March 27, 2017 by Darius West

[Ali the Helering]

Darius, it is such a joy to discover someone who knows the Biblical languages better than the present generation of Bible translators, who have NOT used the KJV as a basis for their work.  The poor dears only use their doctoral level abilities, without the joy of your insight to enlighten them. Get real.

How long have I studied economics? 39 years.

 

[davecake]

Banking isn't a thing that suddenly happened all at once. As plenty of people have stated, making loans as a business (and accepting deposits) dates back a long way (at least around 1000 BC), and is probably sufficient for a Glorantha that is supposed to be largely Iron Age at best. And meets a more or less common definition of a bank. It's true that dedicated banking institutions didn't arrive until the Middle Ages, and fractional reserve banking not until the 17th century, and so on. But there is nothing wrong with calling Gloranthan financial institutions banks if you want to. 

I agree that the Malkioni are the culture that is most likely to have dedicated financial institutions, but I doubt their institutions even at their Imperial height got much beyond medieval ones at most in sophistication, so a long way from modern banks. 

[davecake]

Clacks are associated with dwarves because the dwarves were the first culture to keep track of economic transactions to that level of detail, when most humans were bartering on an ad hoc basis for small transactions. Now everyone admits they come in handy. 

[Joerg]

25 minutes ago, davecake said:

Banking isn't a thing that suddenly happened all at once. As plenty of people have stated, making loans as a business (and accepting deposits) dates back a long way (at least around 1000 BC), and is probably sufficient for a Glorantha that is supposed to be largely Iron Age at best.

I would think that the early Greek and Phoenician colonies around the Mediterranean would be fair comparisons with those of the Jrusteli around their Middle Sea, or with Kethaelan Dosakayo on Melib.

25 minutes ago, davecake said:

And meets a more or less common definition of a bank. It's true that dedicated banking institutions didn't arrive until the Middle Ages, and fractional reserve banking not until the 17th century, and so on. But there is nothing wrong with calling Gloranthan financial institutions banks if you want to. 

The Gloranthan definition of a bank certainly is on par with the banks of the moneylenders and shopkeepers overturned in the Jerusalem temple by a certain carpenter from Galilea.

Derivates and similar concepts of temporal or virtual reality might have plagued the East during Avanapdur's reign... only partially joking.

Both Kerandaruth/Kralorela and Vormain appear to have sufficient levels of bureauracy and bookkeeping to be able to pull such stunts, and the greater maritime powers of the East Isles like Mokato might, too.

25 minutes ago, davecake said:

I agree that the Malkioni are the culture that is most likely to have dedicated financial institutions, but I doubt their institutions even at their Imperial height got much beyond medieval ones at most in sophistication, so a long way from modern banks. 

Brithini and their descendants are very likely to have such institutions. We know of the presence of the Garzeen cult (or Garzeen himself) in Serpent King or pre-Dawn Seshnela, so the unified Issaries cult would be able to deal with anything the Westerners might throw at them in terms of financial constructs. Note that Garzeen merchants are almost by definition urban merchants, and highly unlikely to pollute savage hillfolk clans with such notions.

Let me rephrase that. Garzeen merchants will be unlikely to explain their financial models to hillfolk clan customers, just outline the deals they can offer, take em or leave em.

Peloria looks sufficiently sophisticated to have such a system, too - whether from cross-pollination with the West through the Issaries cult, through contact with Kralori administrators during Sheng's empire, or from developments of their own is waiting to be determined.

The Pelandan city states might have had a precursor of Jrusteli banking as far back as Gartemirus' reign. Natha the Balancer might have been involved. I am fairly certain that there were no such practices until Argentium Thri'ile expelled most of the horse rider lords from Peloria.

Fonrit is one of the heirs of Jrusteli methods, much like Belintar's Holy Country. The Esrolian Asrelian grandmothers might have had something like lending of valuables for interest already when they quarreled with Kodig and other bad men.

 

That's about it with sufficiently urban civilisations and candidates for making money from money. I would not look to the Golden Age or earlier for this kind of intricacies. Even the Early Storm Age was too innocent to have to deal with such details. After all, the early ships of the Artmali or the Helerings were cloudy concepts imitated with a minimum amount of wood and canvas, rather than sophisticated riggings and keels. As the world got corrupted, more materialist and material solutions were in demand.

Harst's spare grain economy shows a mixture of barter and exchange of favors, even in a rather rural environment. Activities like these are reflected in the moneylending business, regardless whether you pay in coin, cattle, or bags of salt.

[Mankcam]

And these are the kind of discussions that you rarely see on D&D forums 

[Jon Hunter]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

So where did the term "banker" come from ?  That is a mistranslation in the KJV1611 as the term didn't exist in biblical times, and nor is it an accurate translation of the practices at the time.  The term bank comes from the Italian word "banca", and Italian didn't exist as a language yet in the time of Jesus (only Latin), but the term "bank" did exist during the time of the KJV1611.  A more accurate translation would be "usurer" or "money lender".  Certainly the practices of lending money and charging interest were known in the time of Jesus, but those things alone are NOT banking.  Banking is a later conglomeration of financial services that has its realization in Italy and includes credit creation and compound interest, supported by double entry accounting procedures, and other whistles and bells.  At least that is the opinion of economic historians on the topic and I am inclined to agree with them.

I also find your use of "argumentum ad verecundiam" does nothing to enchance your argument as while you may have studied various biblical scriptures, how many hours have you put into studying the history of economics, which is, after all, the more relevant field with regards to this matter?

Darius,

What constitutes a modern bank in technical terms  and what constitutes a bank in common parlance relating to an ancient or mythic world are probably two different things.

I think most readers would be happy to understand the process of deposits, credit, money changing and interest to constitute something which could be described as banking.  5 mins on wiki gives us this as the opening line.
 

Quote

The history of banking refers to the development of banks and banking throughout history, with banking defined by contemporary sources as an organization which provides facilities for acceptance of deposits and provision of loans.
The history begins with the first prototype banks of merchants of the ancient world, which made grain loans to farmers and traders who carried goods between cities. This began around 2000 BC in Assyria and Babylonia. Later, in ancient Greece and during the Roman Empire, lenders based in temples made loans and added two important innovations: they accepted deposits and changed money. Archaeology from this period in ancient China and India also shows evidence of money lending activity.

Ali's support using the bible as a reliable historical text in terms of lifestyle and culture, is sound. 

The term of banker you said was mistranslated is "trapezitai", which literally translates as 'bankers/moneylenders table' which clear in meaning to all unless you wish to make a pedants argument of double entry book keeping and credit creation, which bears no relation to wider discussion.

What is of interest, is that the texts of the early church see the following concepts as everyday enough to be used in parables and teaching by Jesus, coins, bankers/moneylenders, interest and money changers. Also the concept of interest was common enough for it to taught against when Jesus was talking publicly within the roman empire.

Not only were these concepts in existence they were common, and an uneducated man could understand them.

How that translates to the game world is interesting. I would not be putting a renaissance period Italian bank on every corner. But moneylenders exist.  Temples, guilds, rich merchants and even rich clans may be able to make loans and deposits.

NB. As a side note whatever your thoughts on its more spiritual and extraordinary elements, as an of the times guide to the life on average person living a classic society the bible (Joshua onward's) it is a great guide.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Jon Hunter

[Ali the Helering]

As Jon notes, as a societal overview the Bible has definite usability, provided you always bare in mind the political and religious purpose and bias behind many of the books, and the fact that many of the books are not written in the era they purport to represent. An excellent resource for Bronze and early Iron age economics may be found in Pritchard's Ancient Near Eastern Texts (fondly abbreviated to ANET) ISBN 069103503-2..

An USAF colonel friend of mine was appalled to discover that the ancient world was full of 'command economies' rather than free trade, upon reading it. 

[Ali the Helering]

Sorry for the spelling and grammar in the above, in considerable pain today.

I have to admit, I always think of GRoY in the same way I think of the Hebrew Scriptures - a desperate attempt to justify a nation and ruler based on constructed history where theology is far more important than mere fact. The nation is surrounded by physical foes, and the population permeated by spiritual ones. My Dara Happa is a seething mass of dispute and dissent, despite the fanciful perfectionism of the Yelmites.

Despite earlier suggestions I am not primarily a Biblical scholar but a social anthropologist of religion. Economics, history, demography, myth and philosophy are, of course, implicit to such study.

[Jon Hunter]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

As Jon notes, as a societal overview the Bible has definite usability, provided you always bare in mind the political and religious purpose and bias behind many of the books, and the fact that many of the books are not written in the era they purport to represent. An excellent resource for Bronze and early Iron age economics may be found in Pritchard's Ancient Near Eastern Texts (fondly abbreviated to ANET) ISBN 069103503-2..

I would agree with that, but I would probably be prone to more conservative dating and readings of the scriptures than than yourself, and my expertise lies in NT rather than OT which would be more relevant to discussions here.

As we are 'outing' ourselves my interest lies in that of a biblical scholar, but a good reading of time, culture, place, custom and the meta story it fits into is needed for good biblical scholarship.

[TRose]

 As far as using magic to increase the wealth of the community.

 How does would magic effect farming , the source of most wealth  in the Ancient world .

 Take Plowing and clearing fields  something most people don't think about in a game. In the Bronze age the most common plough was the wooden  Ard or Scratch plough. , Which was fine in the Nile valley or the Middle East , but not so good in the in Rocky soil or newly cleared land with lots of tree roots. To plough with an Ard you would first have to clear the area of rocks and tree roots by hand or using a hoe , a hard and time consuming task . I can testify that clearing out tree stumps with  a chainsaw and a tractor is a long hard job, I don't even want to think about doing it with  a couple of axes and  a team of oxen.

 Now if you can get an Earth elemental( Or use other magic) to  remove the tree stumps and rocks from the soil ,perhaps putting all the large rocks in a pile for later use. that 40 acre patch of rocky woods is no longer  almost useless land.

 Come to think of it, can you cast bladesharp on a Plough?

[Jeff]

27 minutes ago, TRose said:

 As far as using magic to increase the wealth of the community.

 How does would magic effect farming , the source of most wealth  in the Ancient world .

 Take Plowing and clearing fields  something most people don't think about in a game. In the Bronze age the most common plough was the wooden  Ard or Scratch plough. , Which was fine in the Nile valley or the Middle East , but not so good in the in Rocky soil or newly cleared land with lots of tree roots. To plough with an Ard you would first have to clear the area of rocks and tree roots by hand or using a hoe , a hard and time consuming task . I can testify that clearing out tree stumps with  a chainsaw and a tractor is a long hard job, I don't even want to think about doing it with  a couple of axes and  a team of oxen.

 Now if you can get an Earth elemental( Or use other magic) to  remove the tree stumps and rocks from the soil ,perhaps putting all the large rocks in a pile for later use. that 40 acre patch of rocky woods is no longer  almost useless land.

 Come to think of it, can you cast bladesharp on a Plough?

Bladesharp lasts 2 minutes, so even if you can cast it on a plough (which you can't), it doesn't last long enough to be much use.

[Ali the Helering]

Should Barntar have a Trueplough feat, one wonders....

[Jeff]

Barntar has Plowstrength, not True Plough, and Tame Bull (works on Storm Bull cultists!).

[Ali the Helering]

'twas but a joke my liege.... 

The question is worth examining, however. What are the effects of 'everyday magic' on the economy of clan and city? How appropriate are RW models to Glorantha?

[TRose]

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

'twas but a joke my liege.... 

The question is worth examining, however. What are the effects of 'everyday magic' on the economy of clan and city? How appropriate are RW models to Glorantha?

 Well lets look how some spells could be used for every day life.

 First would be IGNITE. .Starting a fire to cook dinner or work as a bronze smith just got a whole lot easier . Not to mention one to keep warm on a cold rainy night.

   We got REPAIR  to fix that broken chair or plate that was dropped. No longer a need to buy a new one.

 And there GLUE.  It does not last long granted , but a cabinet maker or other craftman can use glue to make sure  the wooden pieces stay in place  before he nails them together. and then

 And lets go back to BLADESHARP. As pointed out it last just two minutes, but a Butcher or Lumberjack can cast it at the start of their job when the cutting is the toughest. And I can see a set of prized Butcher knives with a permanent Blade sharp being passed from one master chef to another. Not that any uncouth Orlanthi would ever steal such knives from Halcyon favorite Chef.

 

 

 

[Jon Hunter]

I've always assumed the battle magic listed in RQ  is juts a selection of the everyday common magic found with Glorantha, juts the type which is most interesting to adventures and warrior types.

For every bladesharp there is a plow straight, steady hands ( increase craft ), calm animal, increase yield type spell which juts isn't mentioned as its not directly relevant to the game.

[Ali the Helering]

5 hours ago, TRose said:

 Well lets look how some spells could be used for every day life.

 First would be IGNITE. .Starting a fire to cook dinner or work as a bronze smith just got a whole lot easier . Not to mention one to keep warm on a cold rainy night.

   We got REPAIR  to fix that broken chair or plate that was dropped. No longer a need to buy a new one.

 And there GLUE.  It does not last long granted , but a cabinet maker or other craftman can use glue to make sure  the wooden pieces stay in place  before he nails them together. and then

 And lets go back to BLADESHARP. As pointed out it last just two minutes, but a Butcher or Lumberjack can cast it at the start of their job when the cutting is the toughest. And I can see a set of prized Butcher knives with a permanent Blade sharp being passed from one master chef to another. Not that any uncouth Orlanthi would ever steal such knives from Halcyon favorite Chef.

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I've always assumed the battle magic listed in RQ  is juts a selection of the everyday common magic found with Glorantha, juts the type which is most interesting to adventures and warrior types.

For every bladesharp there is a plow straight, steady hands ( increase craft ), calm animal, increase yield type spell which juts isn't mentioned as its not directly relevant to the game.

All of which either encourages output to far exceed RW norms, or massively increases the cultural and leisure time available.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

(quoting the use of battle magic in daily affairs)

All of which either encourages output to far exceed RW norms, or massively increases the cultural and leisure time available.

Depending on your tool for simulating Glorantha, employing this kind of magic is a rather limited luxury.

 

In RuneQuest terms, a rather small effect (1-point spell) lasts for a couple of minutes, but it takes you about two hours to regenerate the personal magical force you backed that spell with, unless you have spirit slaves or retainers doing this for you. It doesn't matter whether these RQ rules abstractions model Gloranthan reality within a 50% confidence interval or not, the assumption is that personal magic won't elevate you to a different level of technology unless you are a specialized magician with lots of infrastructure.

There is another form of magic which RuneQuest models inadequately, if at all - communal blessings, resulting from the ritual activities of big communities. Such blessings can create ambient effects with much more impact to the work and life of the recipients.

However, Glorantha is a damaged world. Except for a few (holy) places which survived the Greater Darkness relatively undamaged, most of it was dragged back from oblivion, and has been patched back together. Much of it requires the ambient blessings to function normally. This also goes for wilderness, with entities like hunting nymphs or the Lady of the WIlds rallying the forces of life to maintain these functions - not always on the level of the rites described for the Wild Temple in the Beast Man lands south of the Upland Marsh, but possibly similar.

Prax and the Wastes are a special case, though - the damage there predates the general exposure to oblivion, and is much harsher.

The balance of the magics of Glorantha and the destruction the magics have to counteract will result in significant differences from real world bronze age cultures. Some things may be more advanced, others may turn out as more primitive or bleak than expected. Location matters in these things, too, and so does Time.

 

[Ali the Helering]

At the moment that tool is HQ (although I sometimes long for simulationist RQ) which doesn't seem to place the same 'recharge' limitation on affinity usage.

Even with the RQ model, I respectfully have to take some issue with you Joerg, simply on the grounds that sometimes an edge is all you need to excel.  The act of bringing the forge fire up to heat is a once-a-day event, but it frees up a thrall from the bellows for other work and is an act of dedication to Gustbran or Ingenew.

Accepting that the magics of the underlying social deities bring damaged Glorantha up to survival level, those of tribal and clan preference can give each community significant features of their own. As a simple example, the cultic duty of Hedkoranthi to mine flint for thunderstone use will probably result in an excess of chalk.  This can be used to dress walls and battlements, act as a matrix for herbal charms, coat hair for that distinctive spiky appearance, and be used to make temporary marks, to name but a few applications.

[Joerg]

34 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

At the moment that tool is HQ (although I sometimes long for simulationist RQ) which doesn't seem to place the same 'recharge' limitation on affinity usage.

Even with the RQ model, I respectfully have to take some issue with you Joerg, simply on the grounds that sometimes an edge is all you need to excel.  The act of bringing the forge fire up to heat is a once-a-day event, but it frees up a thrall from the bellows for other work and is an act of dedication to Gustbran or Ingenew.

A simple "Ignite" won't do for this, but you are right, at times magic will replace the work, or make an otherwise unskilled task a job for the magician.

Smithing in Glorantha is a topic on its own. Over on the G+ Glorantha group the question has come up whether bronze greatswords and bastard swords are feasible:

including a theory of mine why bonesmithing might be something else than just redsmithing.

34 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Accepting that the magics of the underlying social deities bring damaged Glorantha up to survival level, those of tribal and clan preference can give each community significant features of their own. As a simple example, the cultic duty of Hedkoranthi to mine flint for thunderstone use will probably result in an excess of chalk.  This can be used to dress walls and battlements, act as a matrix for herbal charms, coat hair for that distinctive spiky appearance, and be used to make temporary marks, to name but a few applications.

Sure - waste not, want not. I guess that those flintstone digs are minor sacred places not necessarily right next to the village. A local maintainer might trade the overburden or spoil to neighboring communities or even a regular trader for necessities at the site. My internal picture is that of the neolithic flintstone miles in Denmark:

http://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-neolithic-period/polished-axes-of-flint/flint-mining-a-risky-business/

Even so, the question remains whether the chalk serves ritual purposes, too. After all, it embodies the dead bodies of the slain sea entities in the Flood Era struggles when it doesn't trace further back to Faralinthor. Too bad these entities were mostly boneless...

Mining for godbones could look very similar. Would there be stickpicker initiates of Hedkoranth or Gustbran making a meagre living out of providing raw materials for more qualified specialists?

 

Speaking of everyday magic, and trying to return to the topic of money - what magics would be used in connection with money?

Lokarnos' Coin Wheel magic and Argan Argar's Safe are a given, but of divine origin. Detection magics can be used to find counterfeit coins. What else?