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Lots of interesting stuff coming up from the Pavis Plan thread on Adari:

http://basicroleplaying.org/topic/5859-the-pavis-plan/?page=4#comment-86064

so I've started a new topic.

9 hours ago, Joerg said:
Quote

@Darius West said - Adari isn't a primarily agrarian settlement, it is a glorified trading post with the Trolls and Elves of Shadows Dance.  

Adari survived somehow through the Inhuman Occupation of Dragon Pass, so it must have been similar to the Praxian oases during that time - a barely self-sufficient agrarian community with a fertility connection and holy place, with the trade post function being an optional extra.

This doesn't quite tell us what Adari was like during the time of Robcradle. The proximity of uz and aldryami may have been the reason why the experimentators who gave birth to Pavis chose it for their experiment, and the lack of direct draconic emanations may have been a plus, too.

Adari sits on the border of the Bison Plain, one of the better pastures in Prax (though not comparable to the Sacred Ground around the Paps). Dagori Inkarth to its north may not have experienced as much damage from the Chaos fighting, but it is dominated by a fertility that brings a lot of decay with it. The Sporewood is the most extreme such place, but the lands east of the Indigo Mountains don't offer any useful grazing for Praxian herds or agricultural opportunities. The vegetation supports the giant and less giant insects from Hell, though.

Back to Adari. It may have served as a meeting place where Praxians and Dagori Inkarth traders could trade. How common are chitineous armor and tools among the Praxians? When metal is hard to get, these uz products might be an excellent alternative, especially for protective clothing in battle. The Praxians would pay with herd beasts other than their own, of course. When the Pure Horse Folk took over, this trade may have suffered - sun worshippers usually don't wear chitin, and they had trading privileges with the EWF. The Pol Joni probably don't have any dogmatic reasons to avoid insect products, but they too have trade privileges with the Sartarites, which translates as better access to bronze.

During the glorious past of Old Pavis, Adari may have been situated on the trade route to the city. The prohibition against wheeled transport through Praxian grazing may have been suspended here, on the border of Dagori Inkarth. The Pavis Road sounds like an achievement of Dorasar, in the tradition of his grandfather Sartar, and probably building on the impression Sartar left with the priesthood of the Paps.

Adari is off the Nomad Gods boardgame map, but the Bison plains are a grazing and hunting ground of the Praxians, and they would have treated the place like they treated any other oasis population. I don't think that the frequent troll presence would have stopped them from mercilessly exploiting the oasis population there. And the same goes for the Pure Horse Folk. Grain-fed horses would be something of a status symbol among horse folk. The Grazers perfected this with their Vendref population. Their distant ancestors would have done the same.

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@Joerg:Adari survived somehow through the Inhuman Occupation of Dragon Pass, so it must have been similar to the Praxian oases during that time - a barely self-sufficient agrarian community with a fertility connection and holy place, with the trade post function being an optional extra.

On the RQ2 map it's marked with the city symbol, in the guide, it's a small city. Although I think you are right I think it's water comes from a different source. It's also not there at the Dawn, so likely (re-)settled by First council peoples. Looking closely at the map, it sits exactly across the border of Prax and Dagori Inkarth. I don't think it's actually part of Prax at all. The fact that it has been rebuilt many times means its defences have likely changed. It must of at some point had walls for defence.

I also think that it's position under Sentry mount and the natural barrier of the Indigo mounts may protect it fromAdari.png.115b8025b46a57c7455a517dd0342225.png

The Dark Green marks the Prax grazing area, the orange below the Great Caves are the Bison Plains - the Bison tribe ancestral grazing. The other orange area is the Better Place - the High Llama ancestral grazing. The rivers and serpents although some are seasonal are all shown solid. The northern and eastern light green patches are part of the east zola fell grazing, not as good as prax.

@Joerg This doesn't quite tell us what Adari was like during the time of Robcradle. The proximity of uz and aldryami may have been the reason why the experimentators who gave birth to Pavis chose it for their experiment, and the lack of direct draconic emanations may have been a plus, too.

I agree, likewise look how close The Throne is too.

@Joerg Adari is off the Nomad Gods boardgame map, but the Bison plains are a grazing and hunting ground of the Praxians, and they would have treated the place like they treated any other oasis population. I don't think that the frequent troll presence would have stopped them from mercilessly exploiting the oasis population there.

I'm not so sure of that, I think there is some kind of odd balance here that is held in place by the Trolls and nomads.

Drastic Prax has a snippet called "Stafford on Adari"and although the Drastic books are not considered canon, it would be foolish to ignore them. This snippet has the caveat that it says in the credits : "The following materials are: authored or co-authored by Greg Stafford, or based on works by Greg Stafford or Chaosium in a derived manner: ... Stafford on Adari" So it may well not be all Greg:

Quote

Greg Stafford on Adari
Adari is such a Stinking town that even the Lunars don't want it. I always envision the ruler being whichever Player Character-type has most recently killed the last one. lts only lasting value is as a traditional trading spot with the trolls. Its merchants trust the ancient Marketplace spell and the current warlord gets a fat tax. Many trolls frequent Adari, especially ones who are not traditional Kyger Litor types, and it is often ruled by them. They have the unpleasant habit of roasting elves publicly and then fighting for the right to eat them. Despite this description. the city has about 300 permanent residents, and extorts taxes from nomads on the range near them. 

Also Cults of Prax tells us more :

Quote

Adari is a frontier town between Shadows Dance and Prax. It was first settled in the Dawn Age and is also the birthplace of Pavis, but since has been razed and rebuilt often. There trolls, elves, humans, and other lesser races of the area meet as equals. Issaries has a fine temple there.

 

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Love this thread . . . had a response over there that bracketed the Adari connections as veering away from The Man Who Was Pavis so it's great to see it collected here. Those fertility maps are really something.

One more crumb to throw into the pot is the linguistic note in RQ 2, posted over here to help recover my shame in initially missing the draconic connection:

OLD PAVIC
Some 500 years before, this now nearly-dead language was spoken in the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. The Empire ruled Old Pavis in that age when the huge ruins were cut off from the outside world, and the native humans still speak it. Now that the city is reopened, it is again known to the outside world. It is also used in ancient religious ceremonies at Adari, but not spoken by the populace there. Speakers of this language also know Draconic at % x their Old Pavic ability.

So Adari preserves vestiges of some "ancient" religion behind the present stinking squalor. Who were they?

When I think of stinking people I think tusk riders.

 

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It's my favourite town in Glorantha. There was a write up in the third Tales of the Reaching moon.

Argan Agrar worship is strong here and it occasionally fills with Sartarite refugees whose clans are strong in Darkness.

Some say it was once called Tadari, and was the seat of the ancient hero. Those hatching plots to bring him back can be found here, skulking in the shadows.

Weekly Trollkin fights are held.

It's like a crazy Mad Max/Star Wars town for me.

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I guess I shot most of my powder when writing this contribution to the Pavis project. I thought it was on topic to discuss this as part of the Pavis project.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

@Joerg:Adari survived somehow through the Inhuman Occupation of Dragon Pass, so it must have been similar to the Praxian oases during that time - a barely self-sufficient agrarian community with a fertility connection and holy place, with the trade post function being an optional extra.

On the RQ2 map it's marked with the city symbol, in the guide, it's a small city. Although I think you are right I think it's water comes from a different source.

I don't think that it doubles as an altar to the Praxians, as the oases in the Nomad Gods boardgame do, unless you count its role as a marketplace.

I guess that its market makes it at least temporarily the equivalent of a city. The permanent residents probably aren't sufficient, but then Duck Point is shown as a city as well.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

It's also not there at the Dawn, so likely (re-)settled by First council peoples.

The speed with which the few Theyalans expanded is staggering anyway, but I guess that a backyard like Adari might have had to wait until the setbacks the Council experienced in Dara Happa may have caused settlers to brave the Praxian border, to the trolls.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

So Adari preserves vestiges of some "ancient" religion behind the present stinking squalor. Who were they?

When I think of stinking people I think tusk riders.

I think you might be onto something here, @scott-martin. Whovever moves into the neighborhood of Dagori Inkarth needs to be a trollfriend, or at least strong familiarity with Darkness. I don't see Kitori seeking the proximity to beast riders and elves, but the Aramite ancestors of the Tusk Riders - who still were humans in the Dawn Age - are good candidates to move there. They may have lost their pigs at some time, and thereby their connection to the rest of the Aramites.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Looking closely at the map, it sits exactly across the border of Prax and Dagori Inkarth. I don't think it's actually part of Prax at all. The fact that it has been rebuilt many times means its defences have likely changed. It must of at some point had walls for defence.

If so, one or the other side of its neighbors may have disagreed with having walls - I think the EWF period with the Pavis project is the most likely candidate that could have poured sufficient resources into that place, and the events triggered by Paragua could have been the end for any walls.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I also think that it's position under Sentry mount and the natural barrier of the Indigo mounts may protect it from

From troll raids?

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Adari.png.115b8025b46a57c7455a517dd0342225.png

@JoergThe Dark Green marks the Prax grazing area, the orange below the Great Caves are the Bison Plains - the Bison tribe ancestral grazing. The other orange area is the Better Place - the High Llama ancestral grazing. The rivers and serpents although some are seasonal are all shown solid. The northern and eastern light green patches are part of the east zola fell grazing, not as good as prax.

 

I would have thought that Adari was a bit more in Praxian than in troll territory, but a position on the border makes sense, too. The identification of the Better Place as ancestral High Llama territory was my biggest discovery here.

 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

@Joerg Adari is off the Nomad Gods boardgame map, but the Bison plains are a grazing and hunting ground of the Praxians, and they would have treated the place like they treated any other oasis population. I don't think that the frequent troll presence would have stopped them from mercilessly exploiting the oasis population there.

I'm not so sure of that, I think there is some kind of odd balance here that is held in place by the Trolls and nomads.

This doesn't mean that the human inhabitants fare any better. Most oases have a balance of occupying nomad groups, too.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Drastic Prax has a snippet called "Stafford on Adari"and although the Drastic books are not considered canon, it would be foolish to ignore them. This snippet has the caveat that it says in the credits : "The following materials are: authored or co-authored by Greg Stafford, or based on works by Greg Stafford or Chaosium in a derived manner: ... Stafford on Adari" So it may well not be all Greg:

I know that Drastic used a lot of then unaccessible texts by Greg, and something like that text looks like an unchanged original statement.

I don't quite see how the city could extort taxes from the nomads, unless it sent in trolls to do so. Those 300 permanent residents don't sound like a force the nomads would reckon with. The gang leader who controls the city would need a hefty gang in order to levy a tax from nomads.

I did quibble with Stephen about quite a lot of details in Drastic Darkness at the time, but this didn't come up in our discussions.

 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The identification of the Better Place as ancestral High Llama territory was my biggest discovery here.

As an aside that's my own work and subject to editing etc: 

Bison - Bison Plains

Better Place - High Llama

Good Place - Sable (contains Moonbroth oasis)

Close to the Goddess - Morokanth (contains Bigglestone oasis)

The Impala tribe's ancestral grazing was lost until rediscovered by exploration. They remained at the paps as Heritha Impala Mother was asked by Eiritha to become the first Most Respected Elder. They remained there for 40 years until she died and a High Llama succeeded her (starting the cycle of the tribes). They then moved off into the Wastelands to their land.

Edited by David Scott
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1 hour ago, Joerg said:
Quote

I also think that it's position under Sentry mount and the natural barrier of the Indigo mounts may protect it from

From troll raids?

oops - any effects of Sporewood, Shadows Dance and Dagori Inkarth. 

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Here's what I know of Adari:

Adari is a small and unruly city of about 1,500 to 3,000 people. It is in the foothills of the Indigo Mountains, and surrounded by troll strong lands. It is ancient, dating back to First Age (nobody really knows how old it is as it has been sacked and refounded many times). It is place that trolls, elves, humans, and lesser races (such as baboons) meet as equals. Issaries has a fine temple there.

The area around Adari is inhabited by trolls and nomads. Unlike Pavis, it lacks great walls, rich lands, a navigable river, or much else. It does have arable lands in its immediate vicinity, and is a place where peaceable contact with the trolls can take place (but not all contact IS peaceful). The Bison Plains are frequented by herds of wild animals and Praxian riders. Troll hunters from the Great Caves frequent the area.

Issaries is the patron god of the city, and the market and temple are the public center of the city. The Issaries Temple provides a place where three different species can communicate and bargain in peace. Which is pretty impressive if you think about it. The high priest does not govern the city, In fact, the temple likely predates the settlement! However, it is NOT a great temple (it MIGHT rate as a major temple, but maybe not even that). From Cults of Prax it sounds like the temple might have Orlanth as an associated cult. However, I suspect Daka Fal is more widely worshiped in Adari than Issaries, and there are likely shrines to both Waha and Argan Argar.

Adari often has foreign overlords - trolls, Praxians, elf, and even adventurers. "Rule" usually consists of little more than extracting taxes in the form of supplies, food, animals, and labor. The locals are not Heortlings, and speak Tradetalk with outsiders. They use Auld Wyrmish in some religious ceremonies but do not otherwise speak it.

I think the unruly nature of the place comes from the following: Humans, trolls, and elves can be found here; and that the kind of humans found in Adari are either the descendants of those there since the Second Age or the sort that end up in remote backwaters like this (i.e., outlaws, exiles, adventurers, lunatics, etc.). Much - perhaps most - of the residents are temporary. Combine that with the lack of any tribal authority, add in the presence of troll drinks, elf intoxicants (hazia, opium, etc.) and you end with a very unruly place indeed!

The "rulers" of Adari are basically whatever bandit group is able to keep the other bandits away. They take their tenth from the market (which the Issaries high priest permits as long as the "tax" is within traditional boundaries) and shakedown the local farmers, until they either get ambitious and leave for Pavis (or return home) or end up being replaced by the next bandit group. I could imagine characters managing to become "ruler" of Adari, only to abandon that lofty title to become a thief in New Pavis or a Big Rubble adventurer!

In truth, the local families actually handles disputes between locals, and the temple governs any disputes involving the market. Probably this is a lot like a lot of colonial backwaters "ruled" by Western adventurers in Latin America or the Middle East or South Asia prior to WW2. For real world comparison I look at the various Southwestern Pueblos, such as Acoma, Taos, or Oraibi of the Hopi people. The Hopi, who are agriculturalists surrounded by herding Navajos are an excellent source of ideas. 

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11 hours ago, Jeff said:

For real world comparison I look at the various Southwestern Pueblos, such as Acoma, Taos, or Oraibi of the Hopi people. The Hopi, who are agriculturalists surrounded by herding Navajos are an excellent source of ideas. 

I really like the notion of a Pueblo such as Old Oraibi as an inspirational visual reference for Adari.

Are there any cultural analogies we could use to portray the indigenous inhabitants?

For example, are the Adari village folk similar in appearance or dress to the Ancestral Pueblo People? And are they the same people as the Oasis Folk who reside at the smaller fertile spots like Moonbroth and Pairing Stone? Would ancestral people of Oasisamerica be a good visual analogy here as a point of reference for Oasis Folk, or just the original residents of Adari? I suspect alot of Sartarite and Pavic outlaws and such also reside here alongside the original people - or are they not Oasis Folk at all, are they a different ethnic background altogether? Descendent from Theyalans from the EWF era perhaps?

 

Edited by Mankcam

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18 hours ago, Iskallor said:

It's like a crazy Mad Max/Star Wars town for me.

I just love this, it's kinda how I always envisioned it. 

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1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

And are they the same people as the Oasis Folk

Personally I don't think so. For a start it's not part of Prax and not an oasis.

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

or are they not Oasis Folk at all, are they a different ethnic background altogether? Descendent from Theyalans from the EWF era perhaps?

I think they are a total mish-mash of ancestry, but mainly Theylan, with Praxian blood too. 

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11 hours ago, Jeff said:

In fact, the temple likely predates the settlement!

This would be a good reason for it to exist. Some Issaries story likely explains why it's here.

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

I suspect Daka Fal is more widely worshiped in Adari than Issaries

And this is likely where the Pavic language comes from, exiles from the 17 foes of Waha time period, same as Mani.

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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

This would be a good reason for it to exist. Some Issaries story likely explains why it's here.

It may be built on the site of the Onetree exchange, where Issaries showed Orlanth and Genert how to deal with each-other peacefully.

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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Personally I don't think so. For a start it's not part of Prax and not an oasis.

A little literal in the answer.

Its close to Prax and the oasis people are the closest human indigenous agricultural population, so its not that ridiculous.

Id suggest as original population with some history maybe, but since EWF expansion, Pavis, Dragonkill refugees( if there were any), Theylan migrations, praxians all will have added to a interesting cultural mix

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9 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

It may be built on the site of the Onetree exchange, where Issaries showed Orlanth and Genert how to deal with each-other peacefully.

That's a great idea.

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33 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Its close to Prax and the oasis people are the closest human indigenous agricultural population, so its not that ridiculous.
I'd suggest as original population with some history maybe, but since EWF expansion, Pavis, Dragonkill refugees( if there were any), Theylan migrations, praxians all will have added to a interesting cultural mix

Yes given how close it is to Prax I would not be surprised if there were some ethnic similarities with the Oasis People, at least for the indigenous inhabitants. I'ld also accept that township's origin could also be Theylan from the EWF era, and it has seen better days.

Either way it would currently present itself as a mishmash barter town of outlaws, and many of these folk would not be indigenous to the settlement. Both origins works for me I guess, but it would be good to know if there is a canon ruling on it.

I do like having a mythical reasoning for the founding of the settlement, the Onetree Exchange myth suggested in the previous post sounds really good!.

Edited by Mankcam

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56 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

It may be built on the site of the Onetree exchange, where Issaries showed Orlanth and Genert how to deal with each-other peacefully.

Having some Orlanth presence there alongside Issaries can't hurt when it comes to making deals with Uz, and maybe Genert would have been friendly with the Aldryami.

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59 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

It may be built on the site of the Onetree exchange, where Issaries showed Orlanth and Genert how to deal with each-other peacefully.

The petrified tree might be at the heart of the temple, with chips used to hold a specific temple magic. The Genert connection could be the reason the Aldryans keep coming back...

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On 3/26/2017 at 7:55 PM, Iskallor said:

. There was a write up in the third Tales of the Reaching moon.

 

By Oliver Dickinson, with additional info by Greg Stafford and Jon Quaife.

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22 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Its close to Prax and the oasis people are the closest human indigenous agricultural population

That there are oasis folk and their descendants now mixed in with Adari people I don't doubt, I just don't think the Oasis folk are the original people of Adari. 

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It's a mongrel mix of a town. First folk were blow ins and Traders keen to exploit the Troll market. 

There's local Troll Ball teams and magically enhanced Beetle speedway racing, both ground and air. Think Star Wars Tatooine pod racing but on beetles through the Troll canyons..

Edited by Iskallor
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57 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

... and magically enhanced Beetle speedway racing, both ground and air. Think Star Wars Tatooine pod racing but on beetles through the Troll canyons..

To make this analogy accurate, you also need (this being Trolls) to imagine the racing-pods having full armaments...

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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

That there are oasis folk and their descendants now mixed in with Adari people I don't doubt, I just don't think the Oasis folk are the original people of Adari. 

If it's a town of under 3K people and it has been destroyed (then rebuilt from uninhabitable ruins) multiple times ... frankly, I'd be dubious about ANY claims about "the original people" of Adari:  they have all left, or been killed (not "all" in a 100.0% sense, but in the sense of being a statistically-notable portion of the population as of 1621).

Unless, of course, there is some mythical "pull" keeping them around (they evacuate to the surrounding areas for a few years, or a generation, but their blood "calls them home" when there's a city on the site again), or some sort of protection (such that the overwhelming majority of the "few survivors" of each city-fall, and the workers who rebuild (and then re-settle), are overwhelmingly Adari by blood) ...

And, this being Glorantha, I'd be 100% behind the idea that there *IS* something keeping the "Sons and Daughters of Adari" alive.

 

Edited by g33k
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This thread feeds beautifully back to the Pavis Project, pod racers and all. I wouldn't be surprised if that kid with weird parentage took a lot of "original Adarites" with him "back" across northern Prax in order to (re)build a more perfect Adari by the river. Helps explain how old Pavis could get so weird on a much grander scale: consider the models he had to work with.

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