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Pavis houses, shops and stuff

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On 4/6/2017 at 2:34 PM, Byll said:

"Geo's Own" is mentioned but sounds more of an adventurer and unemployed/superanuated mercenary confraternity

It is the "cult" of Geo.  And yes it serves mostly as a confraternity.  One of my player's characters recently was initiated into Geo's.

See P:GtA p.201: the primary function of each Geo’s Inn is to provide refuge and support for Sartarites. Geo blesses and defends all of his inns. His is a close-knit fraternity. The innkeepers and staff are often veteran warriors who cannot find work anywhere else. The bulk of “Geo’s Own” are adventurers, outlaws, and  wanderers, who always find a mug of beer, a bowl of stew, and a place to sleep when they get “home.”

Though probably non-canonical, I drew on the cult writeup in the Cults Compendium p.235: Members can join if they pass the entrance requirement of being a  Sartar citizen, or a close friend of a citizen, and if they swear to uphold the rules of the cult. These rules are that members must always respect the hospitality of Geo, and never fight among themselves or allow others to fight inside the inn; when members meet and know or notice that they are members they must stop whatever they are doing and “have a round for Geo,” even though this may be a short sip of water upon a savage battlefield; they must occasionally stand guard duty or perform other tasks in the inn; and they must never forget who offered them refuge in their time of need. Once these things are sworn to then a member
receives a brand on his right little finger. Showing this scar will get him automatic entry past the porters of any Geo’s thereafter. The porters can instantly recognize a forged brand.

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Where does grain get ground into flour for the New Pavis population?

Simple answers might be

Out in Pavis County
Most households grind their own

The second seems unlikely, but the first might make sense

If it is a more centralised system where are the mills?

Is there is a mill attached to the granaries? I don't remember it being mentioned. Is it water powered and on the Zola Fel? (inside or outside the Giant Walls? ) 

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28 minutes ago, Byll said:

coWhere does grain get ground into flour for the New Pavis population?

Simple answers might be

Out in Pavis County
Most households grind their own

The second seems unlikely, but the first might make sense

If it is a more centralised system where are the mills?

Is there is a mill attached to the granaries? I don't remember it being mentioned. Is it water powered and on the Zola Fel? (inside or outside the Giant Walls? ) 

Does grain get ground to flour, or is it just coarsely ground and then boiled with water? How common is bread?

I don't see any watermills along the Zola Fel, and there is no indication of wind mills either, so any grinding will be done with muscle power. The only question remains whether the grinding is done by human arms or by draft beasts running in circles.

Such a donkey or Praxian herd beast drawn mill might also be used as an oil mill for e.g. skull bush seed..

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6 hours ago, Joerg said:

... any grinding will be done with muscle power. The only question remains whether the grinding is done by human arms or by draft beasts running in circles.

I'd expect the answer here to be "some of each."

And, maybe, even a Mostali mill ...  If I can figure out WHY they'd do it.  My current working notion is that they have some process somewhere running TOO fast, and they need to introduce a slow-down.  A little bit of grain adds just the right degree of inefficiency to that component of their process...

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 Might mention the earliest known  Wind Mill we have proof of are in 6 century AD in Iran, while the water wheel is known from the 1st century AD. both well into the Iron age. ,

Edited by TRose

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Water wheels exist in Glorantha - the Lunar Empire is compared to a good waterwheel (Guide p307, copied from the in-gloranthan text of the Fortunate Succession) while the Astronomical Clock Tower in Kuchawn is powered by waterwheels (Guide p273).  

For the windmill, the evidence is far more nebulous.  The Old Wind Temple was depicted as a Windmill in the Dragon Pass boardgame and also in a William Church illustration (which appears in Dragon Pass; a Gazetteer of Kerofinela).  Such a description does not appear in the Sartar Companion.  Secondly an old Greg sez said that the Malkioni had Windmills at the Dawn but again that's of dubious canon at best.

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1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Water wheels exist in Glorantha - the Lunar Empire is compared to a good waterwheel (Guide p307, copied from the in-gloranthan text of the Fortunate Succession) while the Astronomical Clock Tower in Kuchawn is powered by waterwheels (Guide p273).  

For the windmill, the evidence is far more nebulous.  The Old Wind Temple was depicted as a Windmill in the Dragon Pass boardgame and also in a William Church illustration (which appears in Dragon Pass; a Gazetteer of Kerofinela).  Such a description does not appear in the Sartar Companion.  Secondly an old Greg sez said that the Malkioni had Windmills at the Dawn but again that's of dubious canon at best.

 Well if you are going to hve windmills , can they then be built over an Air  Geyser? Granted air geyser are no more predictable then water geyser and some spew poison gas.

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I suspect this text (emphasis added by me) is specific...

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't see any watermills along the Zola Fel, and there is no indication of wind mills either, so ...

Specifically:  in lieu of any wind/water powered mills mentioned in Pavis or Prax, we ask:  do they appear in artist depictions of the area(s)?

This criterion works for me.

Or it may simply be a detail not previously considered in any explicit way...

 

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Mills powered by wind? Of course there should be!

What's the Air rune for?

 

But I should be careful with the reasoning "Magic is used as science", because the way I render Glorantha has already been accused of being too magical - and even Transhumanist!

For example, in my Glorantha, long distance messaging towards established destinations is possible by using Elemental runes:

- Air, a breeze directly reaching a place opened to air streams.

- Darkness, a change of blackness and coldness over a enclosed place.

- Earth, a soft tremor on the ground of a certain place.

- Fire, a change of light and heat over a bonfire.

- Water, a sudden formation of a clearly distinguishing oil-seeming flow over a water course or pool.

 

Also, if the message is attached with the Truth rune or if the receiver uses the Truth rune onto it, he can be sure that it hasn't be intercepted by anyone else.

 

So I have no problems with windmills powered by the Air rune in some way.

Edited by Nel

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When I wrote "I don't see any watermills" I was referring to the aerial view of New Pavis and the maps, and I was referring to the lack of buildings standing with one of their sides in the water.

And yes, we are talking about a "Bronze Age" setting. That makes the use of sails debatable, and certainly precludes the use of oars (paddles are ok, though). It also precludes the use of cranes, even with only direct translation (huge force wheel - probably treadmill - and a rope directly on the axis).

Then there is the huge exception to this rule, the musket-wielding servants of the World Machine who regard themselves as the cogs and gears inside that construct.

Openhandism has leaked some of these technologies into the surrounding human cultures, outright theft or clandestine copying has leaked others.

 

Anachronistic technology (if you measure this against Bronze Age cultures in Earth history) in the hands of humans includes devices like Leonardo the Scientist's pedalcopter (lots of transmission going on there), the turtle ships and the steam bubble boats of God Forgot, construction machinery used in Boldhome, coinage and mints, stirrups.

Note that at least to me "Bronze Age" is also an accurate description for the Urnfield culture north of the Alps (contemporary to the iron-exporting culture of the Etruscans) or the pre-contact and contact Inka culture. Stop thinking about Mesopotamia or the Mediterranean only.

 

Edited by Joerg
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11 hours ago, g33k said:

And, maybe, even a Mostali mill ...  If I can figure out WHY they'd do it.  My current working notion is that they have some process somewhere running TOO fast, and they need to introduce a slow-down.  A little bit of grain adds just the right degree of inefficiency to that component of their process...

Mostali are miners, and grind material all the time - ores for refining, then for mixing the ores before the alchemical transmutation into metal. They will have rotational mills similar to those big stone wheels used to press olive oil, hammer mills, and probably horizontal mill stones for fine grinding and mixing. I would stop short of ball mills, though, but autogenous milling (using larger chunks of the material you want ground in lieu of mill stones) probably is used, too.

(Al)Chemists use grinding all the time, too. Mineral pigments, organic material for extraction, the components for blackpowder all benefit greatly from being ground, and larger scale applications would want some mechanisation for mortar and pistil.

In other words, core mostali activities benefit greatly from mills. While they may employ jolanti or enslaved humans or their blind cave oxen to power these, they might as well use water wheels or even wind wheels - possibly vertical shaft ones resembling a Mobility rune.

Gears and transmission belts or chains would be well known to the Mostali, too.

The Flintnail cult is likely to produce mortar (the dry powdered stuff) in mills. No idea what they use to power these, though, and whether any of these are built above-ground.

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The Pavis books have sections on grain (Pavis: Cityguide for the Gamemaster 16/P:GTA 154), mentioning that it's shipped to the city granaries where it can be milled for a small fee.

Since the view we have of the granaries' roofs (P:GtA 181) to confirm no windmills, my guess is the milling is done by hand, or via herd animal.

Now, to go further on the Mostali front, it's possible that they're responsible for the manufacture of the Pavic mills. Quite possibly they're actually the tops of gigantic prayer wheels found in a complex below, designed by the dwarves so that when the humans grind their grain, they're turning the immense wheels and creating magic for the dwarves to use for their own purposes.

 

 

 

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My question stands still: Why not?

What's the reason why magically powered mills are not used?

 

Watermills using the Water rune, or windmills using the Air rune -

Even mills using the Movement rune or the Plant rune are easily imaginable!

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5 hours ago, Nel said:

My question stands still: Why not?

Probably for religious reasons. For example, one of the most basic tenets of the Orlanthi is No One Can Make You Do Anything, and a windmill is making the wind, that embodiment of freedom, into an exploitable resource - enslaving it. It runs entirely counter to the cultural outlook. Anyone building a windmill in Orlanthi lands would be taking severe risks. Now, making a windmill to simply show the winds, and not using it to power anything would probably be acceptable. I imagine that a similar view would be held by river worshippers, where a waterwheel is exploiting the natural flow of their deity.

Using the wind as a resource is decidedly un-Orlanthi, but might be found among the Western atheists. Zzabur, the Sorcerer Supreme, used windmills to help heat his cities during the Great Darkness. Westerners have a very different world view to the theists of central Genertela.

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17 hours ago, metcalph said:

For the windmill, the evidence is far more nebulous.  The Old Wind Temple was depicted as a Windmill in the Dragon Pass boardgame and also in a William Church illustration (which appears in Dragon Pass; a Gazetteer of Kerofinela).  Such a description does not appear in the Sartar Companion.  Secondly an old Greg sez said that the Malkioni had Windmills at the Dawn but again that's of dubious canon at best.

Interestingly, the Gazetter mentions that the Old Wind Temple's Windmills weren't designed to try and harness the wind for any particular purpose (instead the people of Heortland are said to do that, to try and tame some of the worst winds) but instead just to merely show off the power of the air itself.

The reference to Heortland may actually be to Esvulari, who are mentioned as having windmills in HQ:voices, and as heavily influenced by Malkioni (such as God Forgot) may have picked up the devices from Zzabur's technique.

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Probably for religious reasons. For example, one of the most basic tenets of the Orlanthi is No One Can Make You Do Anything, and a windmill is making the wind, that embodiment of freedom, into an exploitable resource - enslaving it.

By using the Earth rune, Ernalda's initiates can command cows, or open up the ground to swallow people or things onto it. Thus, cows and ground are forced to obey. (S:KoH 137)

Worshippers of the Sisters of Mercy, a subcult of Chalana Arroy, can summon nehalings (S:KoH 148).We could say that those lesser healing goddesses are forced, but, as I see it, nehalings are pleased to heal.

Eventually, Elmal allowed Orlanthi to raise a special breed of horses, the Galana. (S:KoH 153) Isn't carrying over a Human a way to force horses? Well, that's what they were made for.

  

Quote

Using the wind as a resource is decidedly un-Orlanthi

So what's the benefit of worshipping a god who doesn't allow its worshippers to take profit from its main resource?

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25 minutes ago, Nel said:

So what's the benefit of worshipping a god who doesn't allow its worshippers to take profit from its main resource?

He does let you breathe...

Orlanth is first and foremost a Storm god, not a Wind or Air god. Storm and windmills aren't exactly friends.

His elemental contribution to Orlanthi agriculture are the rains that he drives over the lands.

That said, since noone is going to build a stormmill, and winds are lesser cousins, there doesn't have to be a taboo against having them work for their worship.

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3 hours ago, Nel said:

By using the Earth rune, Ernalda's initiates can command cows, or open up the ground to swallow people or things onto it. Thus, cows and ground are forced to obey. (S:KoH 137)

Entirely different to enslaving the winds.

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On 6/25/2017 at 0:39 AM, Nel said:

My question stands still: Why not?

What's the reason why magically powered mills are not used?

Watermills using the Water rune, or windmills using the Air rune -

Even mills using the Movement rune or the Plant rune are easily imaginable!

1

This is a good question.  Clearly the technical knowledge to build mills has been available in Glorantha during various previous imperial periods, and I would be very surprised in the Mostali don't use such things on a regular basis.  As to the Old Wind Temple, no doubt it is the remains of some Mostali device from before time.

On 6/25/2017 at 5:50 AM, M Helsdon said:

Probably for religious reasons. For example, one of the most basic tenets of the Orlanthi is No One Can Make You Do Anything, and a windmill is making the wind, that embodiment of freedom, into an exploitable resource - enslaving it. It runs entirely counter to the cultural outlook. Anyone building a windmill in Orlanthi lands would be taking severe risks. Now, making a windmill to simply show the winds, and not using it to power anything would probably be acceptable. I imagine that a similar view would be held by river worshippers, where a waterwheel is exploiting the natural flow of their deity.

Using the wind as a resource is decidedly un-Orlanthi, but might be found among the Western atheists. Zzabur, the Sorcerer Supreme, used windmills to help heat his cities during the Great Darkness. Westerners have a very different world view to the theists of central Genertela.

If that is the case, then the Lunar Empire should be replete with windmills as a sign of anti-Orlanthi sentiment and loyalty to the Moon.  Put that worthless Storm God to useful work grinding our corn.  Also, don't Orlanthi routinely command Sylphs to do things that sylphs probably have no real desire to do?  I know Undines get put through all sorts of indignities.  Nobody can make you do anything (unless they have a spell for it, methinks).

* * *

I have a very different reason why windmills are not commonplace in Glorantha.  Windmills are large infrastructure projects to build, and in Europe they have had a somewhat chequered past.  You look at windmills and water mills and think they are picturesque no doubt, but anyone who has ancestors who worked the land should know that those ancestors probably looked on such devices as tools of repression, and not examples of early mechanical industrialization.  Because mills were capital intensive, they were excellent collection points for farmers and their crops, and so the land owners passed laws making millers their defacto taxmen.  Worse still, the millers were often accused of using biased scales, and generally they because associated with crime and were often shunned.  The land owners passed laws that made grinding one's own grain illegal, and people's houses were raided and their querns were routinely confiscated and destroyed and punishments applied to the tax dodgers.   So if you belong to a strongly centralized society, then mills are probably all the rage, but there will be plenty where that is not the case.

Also, mills are a comparatively recent development.  It is believed that windmills developed first in Sassanid Persia in around 500AD, though nobody is entirely sure.  Water mills have been around since about 300BC in Greece.  So what did people do before then?  Simply put, they used querns, and for most people and most purposes they were an entirely adequate technology for all their needs.  It is also worth pointing out that flour actually spoils much faster than grain, so the normal procedure was to keep grain, and measure as much as you would need to grind for bread, then grind.  Because it was simple but boring work, it was the sort of thing you could get the children to do more-or-less unsupervised as a household chore.  I would doubt that New Pavis would have a centralized mill, and given how fractious and prone to riot the inhabitants are over far less onerous matters, I doubt that any ruler wants to impose a central grain mill and a new tax on them regardless of how lucrative it might be.

As an aside, it may be interesting to know that grain was one of the first things that humans discovered they could store through burial.  Rather than sprouting when buried, grain will try to sprout but use up all available local oxygen, which normally isn't much, then stop growing abruptly, leaving them in a pocket of carbon dioxide that will keep vermin away when buried.

 

quern diagram.jpg

quern.jpg

Egyprian Saddle Quern.jpg

Saddle Quern.jpg

Edited by Darius West

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2 hours ago, Darius West said:

If that is the case, then the Lunar Empire should be replete with windmills as a sign of anti-Orlanthi sentiment and loyalty to the Moon.  Put that worthless Storm God to useful work grinding our corn.  

Peloria has its own weather gods, all much weaker than those found in the uplands.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

You look at windmills and water mills and think they are picturesque no doubt, but anyone who has ancestors who worked the land should know that those ancestors probably looked on such devices as tools of repression, and not examples of early mechanical industrialization.  

Watermills were common in Classical Greece, and in the Roman Empire, used not only for milling flour, but also to saw wood, and marble. Heron of Alexandria used a wind-driven wheel to power a machine in the 1st century AD. There are claims, somewhat doubtful, that Hammurabi oversaw the use of windmills for irrigation seventeen centuries earlier.

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11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Watermills were common in Classical Greece, and in the Roman Empire, used not only for milling flour, but also to saw wood, and marble. Heron of Alexandria used a wind-driven wheel to power a machine in the 1st century AD. There are claims, somewhat doubtful, that Hammurabi oversaw the use of windmills for irrigation seventeen centuries earlier.

 

Yes I mentioned the watermills being around since 300BC, but windmills were not around yet.  Rome is often regarded has having undergone a hydraulic revolution with the use of watermills becoming quite important to elements of military production, but with the administrative failures of the late empire.  After all, Rome could have gone the next step; Emperor Trajan was presented with a series of steam power inventions that could save labour, but the Emperor elected not to invest in them, favouring a "jobs for slaves" policy in preference to an industrial revolution.  As for Hammurabi, as you say,  there is as yet no archaeological evidence to support the claim, and only sketchy textual reference that is probably a misinterpretation.

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Yes I mentioned the watermills being around since 300BC, but windmills were not around yet.  

Heron made an early one in the 1st century (apparently used to power a water organ); true windmills did not appear until around the 7th century.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

After all, Rome could have gone the next step; Emperor Trajan was presented with a series of steam power inventions that could save labour, but the Emperor elected not to invest in them, favouring a "jobs for slaves" policy in preference to an industrial revolution.

No, the Aeolipile, whilst an interesting toy, was never a practical steam engine. Actual practical steam engines weren't developed until around the 16th century, with workable engines not appearing until the 17th, and effective ones in the 18th, so Trajan never made the choice you propose. You may find Engineering in the Ancient World Paperback by J.G Landels of interest.

Edited by M Helsdon

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On ‎24‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 8:50 PM, M Helsdon said:

Probably for religious reasons. For example, one of the most basic tenets of the Orlanthi is No One Can Make You Do Anything, and a windmill is making the wind, that embodiment of freedom, into an exploitable resource - enslaving it. It runs entirely counter to the cultural outlook. Anyone building a windmill in Orlanthi lands would be taking severe risks. Now, making a windmill to simply show the winds, and not using it to power anything would probably be acceptable. I imagine that a similar view would be held by river worshippers, where a waterwheel is exploiting the natural flow of their deity.

Using the wind as a resource is decidedly un-Orlanthi, but might be found among the Western atheists. Zzabur, the Sorcerer Supreme, used windmills to help heat his cities during the Great Darkness. Westerners have a very different world view to the theists of central Genertela.

Well quite. You can't make the wind blow through the sails of a windmill. If it wants to thumb its nose at your efforts and blow around and above the sails it will. I don't think that's any cause for a religious objection. Orlanth admits he has responsibilities, now and then that could include helping get the work done.

On a practical level though I think the most likely answer is lots of animal driven querns out in the farming settlements in Pavis County, and maybe some hand querns in the larger more old fashioned households in NewPavis. Commercial bakers like Nan's Breadbox probably ship flour in rather than grinding their own.

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1 hour ago, Byll said:

Well quite. You can't make the wind blow through the sails of a windmill.

Actually, you can. All it takes is an artifact like a Bag of Winds, or sorcery.

1 hour ago, Byll said:

If it wants to thumb its nose at your efforts and blow around and above the sails it will. I don't think that's any cause for a religious objection. Orlanth admits he has responsibilities, now and then that could include helping get the work done.

It wouldn't be Orlanth in all his splendor, but a weaker kin.

People flying around on sylphs aren't this controversial. I wonder why?

 

1 hour ago, Byll said:

On a practical level though I think the most likely answer is lots of animal driven querns out in the farming settlements in Pavis County, and maybe some hand querns in the larger more old fashioned households in NewPavis. Commercial bakers like Nan's Breadbox probably ship flour in rather than grinding their own.

When I hear "quern", I think of a neolithic saddle quern where the top stone was moved back and forth in the canal. I've seen such querns in operation at archaeological museums in Denmark. There is only one animal well suited to operate such a quern - a herdman (of either sex and almost any age).

I found out since that kitchen sized rotational mills go by this name, too. Attaching these to a donkey might be feasible. Cultures other than the Orlanthi might employ goats for this purpose. Among the Praxian herd beasts, again only the herd man appears suitable for this kind of activity - impalas don't do well at exerting constant draft, and anything else is too big and/or too unwieldy.

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On 6/24/2017 at 1:05 AM, TRose said:

 Might mention the earliest known  Wind Mill we have proof of are in 6 century AD in Iran, while the water wheel is known from the 1st century AD. both well into the Iron age. ,

Lost of things from RQ2 were not strictly bronze age..

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