Ernalda and Mastery

[Ufnal]

This might be a question answered in a book I have not read, but: Is Ernalda connected in any way to the Mastery rune? There is the aspect of Ernalda the Queen, as far as I understand there are even clans ruled by her priestesses among Orlanthi, yet as far as I understand gods are only connected with three runes, and for Ernalda none of them is Mastery. Does she derive her queenship from a different rune (perhaps Harmony?) and therefore her rule is of different nature than, say, Orlanth's or Yelm's?

[Jon Hunter]

She is usually, Esrolia excepted ( big exception) worshipped as a supporter of the ruler ( Queen supporting king not queen her own right), and thus the harmony rune suits, also note the harmony rune is associated with the mastery rune.

Seeing as Glorantha is rarely completely consistent, I would suggest if she is worshipped as queen and ruler to substitute the harmony rune with the mastery rune.

[David Scott]

38 minutes ago, Ufnal said:

 yet as far as I understand gods are only connected with three runes

The system on the rune of gods is basically three for a god, two for a minor god, one for a hero. However there are also "modifiers" - if the God is also the "owner" of a rune they have it doubled. A simple example is Daka Fal - Man / Spirit / Man. Humakt - Death / Truth / Death, etc. Orlanth and Ernalda get to be Greater gods as they own more runes: Orlanth Air / Air / Movement / Mastery. Ernalda Life / Earth / Earth / Harmony. 

49 minutes ago, Ufnal said:

and for Ernalda none of them is Mastery.

The Mastery rune isn't needed for Ernalda as part of the Earth rune's meaning is Queen of Life:

Quote

Earth
Meaning: Earth, physical things, agriculture, solidity Earth is the third Element, Queen of Life, Mother of Many, Supporter of All. 

 

 

[David Scott]

3 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

also note the harmony rune is associated with the mastery rune.

Other than sort of by its shape, where is the association. The Harmony rune (Power rune) is said to represent the Divine Harp with which Order was separated from Chaos and the Mastery rune (Condition rune) who's exact origins are lost, but it is connected with the Dead Gods whose gigantic crowns are still sometimes found among the abandoned peaks of the world. 

[Jon Hunter]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Other than sort of by its shape, where is the association. The Harmony rune (Power rune) is said to represent the Divine Harp with which Order was separated from Chaos and the Mastery rune (Condition rune) who's exact origins are lost, but it is connected with the Dead Gods whose gigantic crowns are still sometimes found among the abandoned peaks of the world. 

I may be wrong but i thought shape reflected meaning, chaos came out of darkness thus the runes are similar. ( lol I cant quote source on that, but its in my brain somewhere )

I assumed the similarities in the shape of the runes and that a coherent case being possible for mastery to be the control and application of harmony the same applies.

if i'm wrong i'm wrong, but that is where it came from.

[David Scott]

2 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

if i'm wrong i'm wrong, but that is where it came from.

I'm always interested in stuff I've overlooked / missed, hence asking for the info. If it's your own interpretation, I'm fine with that.

[Ufnal]

2 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I may be wrong but i thought shape reflected meaning, chaos came out of darkness thus the runes are similar. .

Just to make sure - didn't you mean darkness came out of chaos?

Also thanks for the answers! Now I am wondering whether Ernalda-worshipping leaders in Esrolia or women-led Heortling clans are getting their leadership magic from this Queenly aspect of Earth, or from Harmony.

[Mark Mohrfield]

Perhaps Ernalda gains limited access to the Mastery rune in a similar way that Orlanth gains limited access to the Water rune (for causing rain). There's also a daughter of Ernalda called Orendara or Orendana the Queen, who I suspect has the Runes of Earth and Mastery.

[JonL]

A game I ran recently had a player whose Ernalda-following character has Life, Earth, & Mastery.

[Joerg]

You can usually find a lesser version of the main deities picking up a specialist rune while letting go of one or two others of the main deity. Rarely a different element, but often a power, condition or form other than the usual.

The personal descriptor runes of the Hero Wars era publications appear to be a mostly non-magical form of writing rather than conveying deep magical secrets, such as the earth rune with an inscribed mastery rune in its center for all of the Earth Queen subcults and earth affinities.

[Jon Hunter]

3 hours ago, Ufnal said:

Just to make sure - didn't you mean darkness came out of chaos?

Also thanks for the answers! Now I am wondering whether Ernalda-worshipping leaders in Esrolia or women-led Heortling clans are getting their leadership magic from this Queenly aspect of Earth, or from Harmony.

No Im meant that chaos broke into the world, in the darkness. The onset of chaos moved things from a lesser darkness to a greater darkness

[boztakang]

49 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

No I meant that chaos broke into the world, in the darkness. The onset of chaos moved things from a lesser darkness to a greater darkness

Slander and Lies!! The darkness was just fine and non-chaotic until Sky and Storm started squabbling and broke the world. Sure, Boztakang mighta spotted a few dodgy things here and there, but he smarshed 'em good and proper, and they kept outside like they was meant to be. It was dumb ol' orlanth tossing the burner down out of the sky at us what made everything bad.

harumph.

on a more on-topic note - what are the runes of the Feathered Horse Queen? She seems a pretty clear example of "Earth Mastery" and is certainly worth a look in that respect. (I imagine the info is in the Guide or such, but don't have time to go searching just now)

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Ufnal said:

Now I am wondering whether Ernalda-worshipping leaders in Esrolia or women-led Heortling clans are getting their leadership magic from this Queenly aspect of Earth, or from Harmony.

I think its important to understand that leadership powers can come from different places in the Runes. The Mastery rune is a refinement of that (being a condition). I would suggest that Air, Earth and Fire all have leadership aspects that manifest in different ways. For example, the unruly air demands that you obey, you follow the solid earth out of respect as the source of all life, while Fire commands and you follow as it is the right thing to do. The difference here is also the difference between patriarchal and matriarchal society. I personally have no real experience of the former and it's likely that none or very few of you out there have either considering the societies we live in. It's this aspect of the Earth as Queen that I have trouble understanding as I've no experience of it. The only glimpse of it I've seen is friends who have Grandmothers or Great grandmothers that hold them in high regard because of who they are. When we were looking at the cult of Ernalda for HeroQuest Glorantha, we asked women for input on the aspects and changed what was there to reflect this input. Whilst there is likely some form of specialist Queen aspect somewhere with a Mastery rune, it will be trumped every time by those who have the runes of Ernalda. They will be the closest reflection of the Goddess and everyone will respect them for that manifestation.

Basically you don't need the Mastery rune to be a leader, but it can help. Have a closer look at the description in HQG as a Condition rune: 

Quote

They often modify another Rune by showing which aspect of an Element, Power, or Form is served by a deity. 

then

Quote

 

Mastery
Meaning: Leadership, authority, sovereignty
The all-purpose Rune, it can be used as a symbol of Mastery of Men, Magic, or the Elements. As Master of Men, it describes a Hero. For Magic, it symbolizes any deity or cult of reasonable power. For Elements it denotes a sort of innate intelligence among the physical stuff of the world. The exact origins of the Rune are lost, but it is connected with the Dead Gods whose gigantic crowns are still sometimes found among the abandoned peaks of the world.

Personality Traits: proud, just, authoritative

 

 

[scott-martin]

25 minutes ago, boztakang said:

on a more on-topic note - what are the runes of the Feathered Horse Queen? She seems a pretty clear example of "Earth Mastery" and is certainly worth a look in that respect. (I imagine the info is in the Guide or such, but don't have time to go searching just now)

In ancient times (WBRM "rune counter" edition) she had the same runes as Beat-Pot, Gunda and Argrath: "Man" like other relatively human individuals as well as Mastery along with an unhelpful range of other entities like the Dwarf, the Sylph and Ethilrist's Cloak. If we were doing it now I'd suggest Earth/Queen and Magic because while she rules the Grazers, it's by right of "thaumaturgy" -- "she must speak only on matters of magical interest" -- and not conventional sovereignty.


 

Edited April 3, 2017 by scott-martin
more trivia on rare early product

[Roko Joko]

38 minutes ago, boztakang said:

what are the runes of the Feathered Horse Queen? She seems a pretty clear example of "Earth Mastery" and is certainly worth a look in that respect. (I imagine the info is in the Guide or such, but don't have time to go searching just now)

"What are (some mortal)'s runes" is more of a HQ question than a setting question.  I don't think the GtG gives any three-rune stat blocks for mortals.  S:KoH or SC might have one for her.

[JonL]

This seems apropos:

[Mark Mohrfield]

1 hour ago, boztakang said:

Slander and Lies!! The darkness was just fine and non-chaotic until Sky and Storm started squabbling and broke the world. Sure, Boztakang mighta spotted a few dodgy things here and there, but he smarshed 'em good and proper, and they kept outside like they was meant to be. It was dumb ol' orlanth tossing the burner down out of the sky at us what made everything bad.

harumph.

 

I wonder if Uz refer to the Lesser and Greater Brightness.

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, Ufnal said:

Now I am wondering whether Ernalda-worshipping leaders in Esrolia or women-led Heortling clans are getting their leadership magic from this Queenly aspect of Earth

Yes, out of the Queenly aspect of Earth.

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, boztakang said:

what are the runes of the Feathered Horse Queen?

She is the sovereign of Dragon Pass, so holds relationships with both the Earth temples (Ernalda/La-ungariant) and the Land Goddess (in this case, Kero Fin).  I believe she would hold both Earth and Mastery.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, scott-martin said:

and not conventional sovereignty.

She is the representative of Kero Fin, the land goddess of Dragon Pass, hence holds sovereignty of Dragon Pass.  To become King of Dragon Pass, you must marry the Feathered Horse Queen - she is the only one who can grant this title.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

I wonder if Uz refer to the Lesser and Greater Brightness.

I don't think this fits.  The Lesser Darkness would be more like the Hurttime or the Invasion of/Flight from Wonderhome.  The Greater Darkness would be more like the New Feasting, when they could actually eat again.

[scott-martin]

51 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

She is the representative of Kero Fin, the land goddess of Dragon Pass, hence holds sovereignty of Dragon Pass.  To become King of Dragon Pass, you must marry the Feathered Horse Queen - she is the only one who can grant this title.

I don't think we are disagreeing here. History probably presents FHQs who at least attempted to effectively "marry themselves" and wield their symbolic power in their own right. It would be interesting to identify them.

[Roko Joko]

So anyway FWIW S:KoH lists the FHQ with Earth (p. 256) and SC lists her with Earth, Mastery, and... wait for it... Horse (p. 217).  

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I don't think we are disagreeing here. History probably presents FHQs who at least attempted to effectively "marry themselves" and wield their symbolic power in their own right. It would be interesting to identify them.

I disagree - from the year marriage contests between Sartar and the Feathered Horse Queen I get the impression that the queen and her husband can go into a contest for wielding the symbolic power. Composite History of Dragon Pass tells us that Sartar won the year marriage exchange, which resulted in him being named King of Dragon Pass rather than her being named Queen of Dragon Pass.

There are only three more such contests and Kings of Dragon Pass, unless the Grazer history manages to forget one (which I find highly unlikely). Yoristina apparently did not have a wedding contest, her daughter did (and received Tarkalor rather than Phargentes). All we know about Tarkalor is that he became King of Dragon Pass in 1579, the year Phargentes died, and that he and his queen appeared at Grizley Peak as a couple.

Moirades is the next King of Dragon Pass. It isn't quite clear when his contest took place, or what children he had from that contest.

Finally, there is going to be Argrath. Details to be left to your campaign, I suppose.

[scott-martin]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Queen of Dragon Pass.

I love it! While it's a shame history hasn't given us examples of the bride winning the contest yet, I wonder if Inkarne or some other future figure will qualify.

For us, the question might be which FHQs push back on that very specific restriction on their status in KOS -- "she must speak only on matters of magical interest" -- and how they do it to reach for broader Mastery. There are undoubtedly Esrolian models.