Another sell me thread :)

[Y Mab Darogan]

Hi first post yadda yadda etc.

Ok so a bit of background for comparison. Long time GM of multiple systems but mostly D&D I've finally found my sweet spot with Mythras and I've got quite a few games planned with it.

Obviously no diehard gamer is unaware of Runequest, and I had MRQ on my shelves but since I was weaned on D&D it wasn't till Mythras that I realised what I'd been missing.

Now here comes RQG based on an earlier edition, initially I rolled my eyes and thought why bother, however...

Having discovered Glorantha properly through the excellent Prince of Sartar comic, the King of Dragon Pass app and a surprise present in HeroQuest Glorantha the game has me intrigued.

1. its tied to a setting I'm very interested in, I'm a fan of setting specific games in particular.
2. the mechanics are being tweaked with that in mind and some sound interesting.

So my question and before answering I've already read the design blogs, it's a gamers opinion I'm seeking and hopefully a few playtesters.

Why is this game for me? What would I get out of running Glorantha with this rather than say Mythras and forking out for the Glorantha guide?

what are the differences really between this and say Mythras (easiest point of comparison for me) and why are these changes I should embrace?

thanks 

Edited April 8, 2017 by HorusArisen

[Jeff]

This will be going up as the next Design Note, but here it is anyway:

RQ2/3/G are quite different mechanical engines from MRQ and its iterations. Now part of that is a different design team - the RQG team includes people who were involved in the design of RQ1/2/3 (Steve Perrin, Ken Rolston, Greg, and Sandy), and who have tons of work trying to improve and refine those rules (and correct what they consider to be mistakes in those early rules). We've also been able to draw on folk like Sven Lugar who were involved in those original books, to help answer why certain rules were developed the way they were. Much of RQG's design comes from work Greg did in the 80s and 90s trying make RQ2 a better fit with Glorantha (little of that work ended up in RQ3 but a LOT of it ended up in KAP). Jason Durall of course was the author of the BRP BGB and has a familiarity with the strengths and weaknesses of the full range of BRP variants. Chris Klug took Sandy's shamanism rules and ran with them, informed by his background as a designer (James Bond 007, DragonQuest).

So we put together a top notch design team for RQG. As everyone on the team saw it, the key features of RuneQuest are:

1. A combat system that is dangerous and largely "intuitive". As a player, you should not need to know how the rules crunch together to be able to say stuff like, "I block Grognar's axe with my shield" or "I try to take cover from their missiles and cast a spell" or "I charge at the broo with my lance while I am on bisonback." 

2. An ability system that puts everything important that a player might use to resolve a problem with on the character sheet. Characteristics, abilities, etc. You look at your character sheet and you know what you can do. 

It was widely agreed that RQ2 was mostly "not broken" - the main weak points were with how Rune Magic was obtained (one use prechosen spells acted as a disincentive towards it use and meant that nifty color spells were rarely used), the disconnect between Initiate and Rune Master, and social interactions. It also thoroughly lacked guidance for handling heroquests and heroes. The passions and traits of KAP were actually originally developed for RQ2 (as part of an unpublished RQs project of Greg's called The Dragon Pass Campaign, which was one of the secret foundational documents for KAP, Epic, and KoDP, as well as greatly influencing HQG). The gestalt moment was realizing that Runes easily double for traits and are actual more manageable than the KAP traits.

Additionally, we built the RQG rules with one setting and one setting only in mind - RQ. That means any pretense of having a "generic magic system" could be thrown away. That meant we could use Gloranthan Runes rather than generically applicable traits. We don't pretend that worship of Odin functions mechanically anything like a Gloranthan cult, or that the RQ combat system needs to accommodate widespread use of modern or futurist firearms. 

In short RQG is intended to be the best iteration of the original designers' vision of RuneQuest, updated and improved. Everyone on the team is very proud of the result. It is a very different rules system from MRQ1/2/Mythras, which had a different set of design goals and a very different design team (with essentially no overlap). 

[Jusmak]

As a casual gamer I came back to RQ2/3 from Mythras, because I like Glorantha. Mythras is general system intended to be used in different settings, not in Glorantha. When I tried to play Mythras in Glorantha, whole magic chapter was too much changed, what I was used to with RQ2/3. System was not adaptable enough to be used or to carry same feeling of Glorantha. Magic chapter is not compatible. Moster's power level became also too different. For example a scorpion man as a monster is quite a challange to fight with a beginning character in RQ2/3. So, it brings some amount of fear into a player. That will no happen, when using Mythras' rules. Scorpion Man has a great benefit in battle because of it's legs. It's vital areas are hard to hit. But not with Mythras' rules. By chooce location special effect, you reach vital parts with any hit. So, what was feared earlier, becomes a bit more trivial challange. That special effect also makes playing Humakt champion too risky to play at all. When getting a geas from cult not wearing armor at all in certain hitlocation, it becomes target of every enemy hitting you there - easily. And changing cults, humakt's geases makes for my liking playing in Glorantha pointless.Being a proud humakti, following god's example to fight without breastplate, only thing, what will happen is to get killed. Myths make Glorantha alive.  Mythras is good in any other setting, for example in Korantia, but it just do not work in Glorantha, there is too many tweaks to fix. Just my opinion. Some people like Mythras great and have done enormous work houseruling every this and that, to have stronger resemblance to what it feels to adventure in Glorantha.

 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Just keep whispering those sweet words to us Jeff, we will keep lapping it up  just about getting to frenzy level.

Past few days I've been stuck in some kind of RuneQuest Utopian dream, except this is becoming reality, somebody pinch me! 

Seriously though this new edition of RuneQuest promises so much. Runequest Classic (Runequest 2) was the reason why I bought into RQ originally. There was/is so much flavour and goodness in that original rule book. So much so that I continued to buy into RQ 3 without question back in the day, even though it was suffering as a game by becoming a generic ruleset, plus a few other niggles. 

So RQ2 is the primary reason i still wish to play RQ. It's a tremendous game with plenty of flavour.

From what I'm hearing the new RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha is built up from the intuitive, flavoursome RQ2, with the fun turned up to 11. Even more immersive 

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[jongjom]

49 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

From what I'm hearing the new RuneQuest: Adventures in Glorantha is built up from the intuitive, flavoursome RQ2, with the fun turned up to 11. Even more immersive 

 

I agree with what you say except please don't say "Adventures in Glorantha". Given the track record of AiG its name is the kiss of death to a new RQ game!

[Jeff]

The subtitle is "Roleplaying in Glorantha". 

[jongjom]

9 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The subtitle is "Roleplaying in Glorantha". 

That too! ;-)

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

58 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The subtitle is "Roleplaying in Glorantha". 

Opps my mistake, apologies. It is Runequest: Roleplaying in Glorantha. 

Edit: Ive corrected my original mistake in the post above. It now reads correctly

Edited April 8, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[styopa]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

This will be going up as the next Design Note, but here it is anyway:

RQ2/3/G are quite different mechanical engines from MRQ and its iterations. Now part of that is a different design team - the RQG team includes people who were involved in the design of RQ1/2/3 (Steve Perrin, Ken Rolston, Greg, and Sandy), and who have tons of work trying to improve and refine those rules (and correct what they consider to be mistakes in those early rules). We've also been able to draw on folk like Sven Lugar who were involved in those original books, to help answer why certain rules were developed the way they were. Much of RQG's design comes from work Greg did in the 80s and 90s trying make RQ2 a better fit with Glorantha (little of that work ended up in RQ3 but a LOT of it ended up in KAP). Jason Durall of course was the author of the BRP BGB and has a familiarity with the strengths and weaknesses of the full range of BRP variants. Chris Klug took Sandy's shamanism rules and ran with them, informed by his background as a designer (James Bond 007, DragonQuest).

So we put together a top notch design team for RQG. As everyone on the team saw it, the key features of RuneQuest are:

1. A combat system that is dangerous and largely "intuitive". As a player, you should not need to know how the rules crunch together to be able to say stuff like, "I block Grognar's axe with my shield" or "I try to take cover from their missiles and cast a spell" or "I charge at the broo with my lance while I am on bisonback." 

2. An ability system that puts everything important that a player might use to resolve a problem with on the character sheet. Characteristics, abilities, etc. You look at your character sheet and you know what you can do. 

It was widely agreed that RQ2 was mostly "not broken" - the main weak points were with how Rune Magic was obtained (one use prechosen spells acted as a disincentive towards it use and meant that nifty color spells were rarely used), the disconnect between Initiate and Rune Master, and social interactions. It also thoroughly lacked guidance for handling heroquests and heroes. The passions and traits of KAP were actually originally developed for RQ2 (as part of an unpublished RQs project of Greg's called The Dragon Pass Campaign, which was one of the secret foundational documents for KAP, Epic, and KoDP, as well as greatly influencing HQG). The gestalt moment was realizing that Runes easily double for traits and are actual more manageable than the KAP traits.

Additionally, we built the RQG rules with one setting and one setting only in mind - RQ. That means any pretense of having a "generic magic system" could be thrown away. That meant we could use Gloranthan Runes rather than generically applicable traits. We don't pretend that worship of Odin functions mechanically anything like a Gloranthan cult, or that the RQ combat system needs to accommodate widespread use of modern or futurist firearms. 

In short RQG is intended to be the best iteration of the original designers' vision of RuneQuest, updated and improved. Everyone on the team is very proud of the result. It is a very different rules system from MRQ1/2/Mythras, which had a different set of design goals and a very different design team (with essentially no overlap). 

Well, now you've even written your 'designer's note' for inside the cover!

[Sean_RDP]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

In short RQG is intended to be the best iteration of the original designers' vision of RuneQuest, updated and improved. Everyone on the team is very proud of the result. It is a very different rules system from MRQ1/2/Mythras, which had a different set of design goals and a very different design team (with essentially no overla

So before I got too far, for me RPGs are like beer; I have rarely met one I won't encourage people to play. Because I have played (and drank) more than my fair share of games (beers) over the years.*

Jeff talks a lot about system in his response, but system is largely irrelevant, right? After all there is Hero Quest and frankly you could convert Rolemaster to play in Glorantha if you wanted. So system is irrelevant.. except... except in this case.

Rarely, in my opinion, has there been a system and setting that went this well together. I think this was a strength of Chaosium's Big Three: Cthulhu 1920s, Stormbringer,, and Runequest, but of a few other rpg systems and their settings do the same (AD&D and Greyhawk, Shadowrun and Seattle for instance). So more than just having the updated original vision for the system to play on Glorantha, you have a synthesis that is really unique between the world and the dice. It is the equivalent of listening to a song or play or epic poem in it's original language, the way it was meant to be heard or read or sung.  BRP/d100 is not the language of Glorantha, Runequest is. So to be able to "sing" the song of Glorantha in it's original language is an experience everyone who really enjoys role playing should have.

Though I suspect  in this case it is equivalent to finding new syntax and vocabulary for an old language so that the poetry sounds even better. Time will tell if the updated system works as well as the previous versions, but I suspect we won't have much to gripe about.

*Note: FATAL, Synnibarr, and Old Rasputin are the two systems and one beer I refuse to ever try or tray again. 

[Y Mab Darogan]

Ok so as someone with no background with RQ2/3 what are the big differences?

To my eye and what I've been told RQ/d100/Mythras all have the same roots and are essentially using the same core percentile skill mechanic.

What is it about RQG that has it standing out from the pack, except Glorantha which is already a selling point for me.

So using Mythras as my comparison since it's the game I'm most familiar with in the family can you tell me

1. how do characters differ?
2. what is different about combat?
3. You mention Rune Points as a special mechanic but to me they appear to be a dedicated magic point pool that can be used to spontaneously cast a select group of spells with situational recharge requirements (which I like as a role play aid)? Am I wrong or missing something?

why would you as a gamer choose RQG rather than another d100 game? What am I getting that I can't get from them?

As a Glorantha jumping on point that's definitely a selling point and if your games good this would be my "Glorantha game" with Mythras suiting my other needs. I suppose I'm just looking for a bit of encouragement and roping in.

[Joerg]

Re-designing a generic magic system to fit the Gloranthan concepts can be quite an exercise in absurdity. I tried to define Stygian churches with RQ3 rules, and basically it didn't work too well. Mike Dawson attempted to create a Malkioni sorcerer with RQ3 rules, and the result (which was published in Strangers of Prax) did little to capture Malkionism.

I tried the Stygian approach again with the playtest rules of Avalon Hill's RQ4 - Adventures in Glorantha project, which never came to fruition. The rules supported this a little better, but still left a lot to improve.

I admit that I haven't attempted to turn RQ6 or Mythras into a Gloranthan game. I played in a convention test game for the Harrek Saga project, basically with MRQ2 rules on their way to RQ6, and found it to work for the pre-created character I was playing, but I didn't sit down with players trying to carve out their very personal character.

 

Basically: I expect magic systems which make using the magic a fun experience rather than an exercise in book-keeping, with divine magic called upon reasonably often. I took part in the discussions about a rune magic pool system in the middle of the 90ies of last century, and what I have seen so far has taken the lessons from that discussion to the heart.

While I can create a scenario for HeroQuest, I still have difficulties presenting predictably manageable challenges. Not so in games of the BRP family. I could create a multi-limbed monster for RQ3 on the fly if I needed one, with hit locations etc, and combat opponents of predictable toughness, too. I expect to be able to reuse those skills with RQG.

 

Magic for all the various religions that works, that is about on par with one another, and which doesn't turn into a resource allocation slugathon - that is what I expect from this game.

 

 

[Nick J.]

For the Glorantha novice, what is "KAP?"

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, Nick J. said:

For the Glorantha novice, what is "KAP?"

King Arthur Pendragon, usually just called Pendragon.

[g33k]

11 hours ago, HorusArisen said:

1. how do characters differ?
2. what is different about combat?
3. You mention Rune Points as a special mechanic but to me they appear to be a dedicated magic point pool that can be used to spontaneously cast a select group of spells with situational recharge requirements (which I like as a role play aid)? Am I wrong or missing something?

why would you as a gamer choose RQG rather than another d100 game? What am I getting that I can't get from them?

As a Glorantha jumping on point that's definitely a selling point and if your games good this would be my "Glorantha game" with Mythras suiting my other needs. I suppose I'm just looking for a bit of encouragement and roping in.

So, I'm basing my remarks on RQ2/RQClassic.  I haven't seen the RQG ruleset.  Or at least, they haven't got a signed NDA from me, so I won't admit to ANYTHING...      

In Mythras, all skills are based on 2 co-equally-relevant characteristics (or sometimes 2X a single characteristic).  In RQ2, most were based on a single primary characteristic, sometimes also having a secondary (less relevant) characteristic.

HP's in RQ2 are just CON (roll a 15 on your CON, 15 HP's) with SIZ as a modifier, whereas it's based on CON+SIZ co-equally in Mythras.  HP's are IMHO an interesting microcosm of the RQ2/Mythras difference -- Mythras is more "balanced" and more "reasonable."  But RQ2 is more colorful:  a small but REALLY TOUGH guy (high CON, low SIZ) and a large but remarkably fragile guy (high SIZ, low CON) are both possible, but in Mythras those scores tend to the same-ish HP's, leading to "more reasonable" outcomes of small & large guys with about the same HP's who are "unusually tough for his size" and "unusually fragile for his size."

Mythras has a much more background-intensive character generation than RQ2; but RQG will easily match Mythras in this regard (and be Glorantha-specific to boot!) .

My understanding of "Rune Points" matches yours, but recall that you get them (so far as I know) mainly via POW-sacrifice to your God(s),  So your Rune Points can grow under your control, but probably link you ever-more-closely with Gods and Great Spirits.

BRP games, in general, match with their settings in large part via well-chosen skills-lists & flavorful magic/tech/etc subsystems.  By all signs, this stuff comes baked-in to RQG; the rune-affinities in particular (q.v. the rune diagram on character sheet), which would be a substantial job to 'port over to Mythras (still and all, I expect some people will do it!).  The "Heroes Book" (coming later, but already in-development) is aimed at Heroquesting / Runequesting / etc -- specifically in Glorantha.  Again, it's nothing you couldn't work out in Mythras (or another d100 game) but creating the playtested subsystem is a non-trivial undertaking, and having it be solidly-Gloranthan in tone/flavor is better for the specific setting than a generic suite of rules.

Combat is an area where they differ some, too:  Mythras' "Combat Effects" offer a lot more variety.  Some folks love them, some find them "too much" (slow down combat, too crunchy, whatever).  Tastes differ.  In RQ2, there's just  "Fumble -- Miss -- Hit -- Special -- Critical"  with Special and Critical mostly doing overdamage; but some weapons have some specific special effects (the iconic one is probably "Impale" where arrows and rapiers and similar thrust/stab weapons can get stuck in the foe).  Taking a step back, it's easy to see the Mythras version as an evolution of the RQ2 rules; each player has to decide for themselves if it has evolved to a Superior Form, or an Evolutionary Dead End.  

 

[Jason D]

17 hours ago, HorusArisen said:

1. You mention Rune Points as a special mechanic but to me they appear to be a dedicated magic point pool that can be used to spontaneously cast a select group of spells with situational recharge requirements (which I like as a role play aid)? Am I wrong or missing something?

2 hours ago, g33k said:

My understanding of "Rune Points" matches yours, but recall that you get them (so far as I know) mainly via POW-sacrifice to your God(s),  So your Rune Points can grow under your control, but probably link you ever-more-closely with Gods and Great Spirits.

Correct. You can make sacrifices of permanent POW to your cult/god, and these will become dedicated Rune points for that god/cult. You can have Rune point pools for each god/cult you are a member of and make sacrifices for. When you join a cult, you automatically sacrifice 1 point of POW, so you've got at least 1 point. Starting adventurers generally have 3 Rune points - more experienced adventurers have more, and based on background rolls you might end up with additional Rune points available. 

When you cast a Rune spell, you can cast any of the cult's Rune spells you know (many are taught to all initiates, while others are for Rune Priests, Rune Lords, and the ever-elusive Rune Lord-Priests). You announce how many of your Rune point(s) you're going to spend, and roll for your affinity for that Rune. Typically, this affinity will be pretty high (70%+) so it's usually a success.

If the roll fails, you don't spend the Rune point(s). If you are boosting the Rune spell with magic points, the magic points are lost. If you fumble, the Rune points are lost.  

You can regain spent Rune points with Worship rolls on cult/god holy days, maintaining holy sites, and creating votive images of your god and placing them on sacred ground (temple, etc.). The amount you get back varies, but on many holy days even a failed Worship roll merits a return of Rune points.  

 

[Y Mab Darogan]

I think it sounds interesting enough to check out although I think the big selling point for me is Glorantha, seeing how well the mechanics emulate/fit that (imho) will be my decider.

 

Edited April 9, 2017 by HorusArisen

[Y Mab Darogan]

As an aside you guys should get a playtester to write an I gamer style promotional piece.

Its great hearing from the designers but you describe it very mechanically for the most part, if still enthusiastically.

Would be good to hear from a player why this is the game to go with.

[MOB]

3 minutes ago, HorusArisen said:

As an aside you guys should get a playtester to write an I gamer style promotional piece.

Its great hearing from the designers but you describe it very mechanically for the most part, if still enthusiastically.

Would be good to hear from a player why this is the game to go with.

Yep, that is an excellent idea. We'll be doing all sorts of stuff like that between now and the release date at the end of year. Right now, we're working on making sure the Quickstart is ready and in place for Free RPG Day (June 17).

People who miss getting a copy on Free RPG Day will be able to download the Quickstart for free on July 1st.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

In RQ2, there's just  "Fumble -- Miss -- Hit -- Special -- Critical"  with Special and Critical mostly doing overdamage; but some weapons have some specific special effects (the iconic one is probably "Impale" where arrows and rapiers and similar thrust/stab weapons can get stuck in the foe).  

 

I like the colour of RQ2 in this regard. The special & critical roll giving access to the characteristic damage of the weapon. Impale for impaling weapons, Crush for bashing weapons, and slash for cutting weapons. Though i think the last 2 damage types are optional. 

When combined with hit locations there's a lot of variety with what can be done. A big blow to the head could result in instantaneous death, or a big blow to the abdomen could result in the target bleeding to death. Also powerful blows can incapacitate, with the possibility of limb loss...Nice Sunday discussion  

On the other end of the spectrum fumbles can create really interesting and colourful complications too.

With RQ2 I like that these effects are largely taken care of for the player.  There remains a random element to combat which feels more like what I expect in a frantic tussle. However aimed shots (at a penalty) to specific hit locations are still possible.

I've not played Mythras but the more deliberate choice of special effect seems to me to be too deliberate? But maybe thats just me? I like the idea of cinematic moves but I'm not sure whether having an arsenal of special effects to be calmly chosen in the fast pace of a melee is the way to go? For me it seems like it could upset the rhythm of combat. In RQ2 its quite fast,and pausing at a critical moment to make a decision about which special effect to use could upset that rhythm. For me at least RQ2 has a good balance in this respect. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Y Mab Darogan]

1 hour ago, MOB said:

Yep, that is an excellent idea. We'll be doing all sorts of stuff like that between now and the release date at the end of year. Right now, we're working on making sure the Quickstart is ready and in place for Free RPG Day (June 17).

People who miss getting a copy on Free RPG Day will be able to download the Quickstart for free on July 1st.

That's good I can pick it up for my birthday 

Reading the blogs again and some of the posts im starting to get the intent behind some decisions some I like, some I'm wait and see but at the moment this is definitely on my buy list. Whether as a resource or as my 'Glorantha' game too early to say but I'm definitely going to run the QuickStart for my group.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

35 minutes ago, HorusArisen said:

That's good I can pick it up for my birthday 

Reading the blogs again and some of the posts im starting to get the intent behind some decisions some I like, some I'm wait and see but at the moment this is definitely on my buy list. Whether as a resource or as my 'Glorantha' game too early to say but I'm definitely going to run the QuickStart for my group.

Not forgetting the promise of huge support from Chaosium with an incredible release cycle, including actual adventures. A game specifically tailored to the themes of Glorantha is going to be quite something. With built in incentives for characters to behave like true Gloranthans. Scaling all the way from from beginner to Hero, It promises game play at many different levels.  Not to mention the artistic presentation which shows huge promise in the quick starter.  

[styopa]

12 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

Correct. You can make sacrifices of permanent POW to your cult/god, and these will become dedicated Rune points for that god/cult. You can have Rune point pools for each god/cult you are a member of and make sacrifices for. When you join a cult, you automatically sacrifice 1 point of POW, so you've got at least 1 point. Starting adventurers generally have 3 Rune points - more experienced adventurers have more, and based on background rolls you might end up with additional Rune points available. 

When you cast a Rune spell, you can cast any of the cult's Rune spells you know (many are taught to all initiates, while others are for Rune Priests, Rune Lords, and the ever-elusive Rune Lord-Priests). You announce how many of your Rune point(s) you're going to spend, and roll for your affinity for that Rune. Typically, this affinity will be pretty high (70%+) so it's usually a success.

If the roll fails, you don't spend the Rune point(s). If you are boosting the Rune spell with magic points, the magic points are lost. If you fumble, the Rune points are lost.  

You can regain spent Rune points with Worship rolls on cult/god holy days, maintaining holy sites, and creating votive images of your god and placing them on sacred ground (temple, etc.). The amount you get back varies, but on many holy days even a failed Worship roll merits a return of Rune points.  

 

Jason, if you don't mind pulling back the covers a little more on this, how do such point pools and spell access work for associated cults?  Is it just more spells in your castable list, or do they cost an extra point or...?

Also, from your explanation it sounds like Rune Magic will NOT be the 95%-near-certainty that it was, either?

[MOB]

3 hours ago, styopa said:

Also, from your explanation it sounds like Rune Magic will NOT be the 95%-near-certainty that it was, either?

As Jeff wrote in a recent Design Notes, "Rune magic isn't automatic - you do need to roll against the Rune of the spell, but usually your cult Runes are your best Runes (and if they aren't - what are you doing?)."

[styopa]

26 minutes ago, MOB said:

As Jeff wrote in a recent Design Notes, "Rune magic isn't automatic - you do need to roll against the Rune of the spell, but usually your cult Runes are your best Runes (and if they aren't - what are you doing?)."

Thanks, I wasn't clear that "roll against the rune of the spell" was necessarily a direct, unmodified roll.