Glorantha Second Age

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

OK if they got EWF very wrong, what would be very right?

Start reading History of the Heortling Peoples. While there is still very little on how the EWF worked in everyday life (the most valuable snippet for this is actually in Middle Sea Empire), you get at least a couple of pages. The Machine Wars description has peripherally useful material, too, even if the most prominent participant from the EWF is the hero who turned the Aramites into the Tusk Riders (IMO, at least - in the Dawn Age they were still humans).

3 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

I know we have the guide, the king of Satar, hints and echo's that come from Delecti and Pavis.

But if we want a flesh out the EWF where would we go? what influences would be good? what could we steal from or use as a model?  

I'd start with the Dragon's Eye illustration by William Church if you are after strange architecture. The Elderling novels of Robin Hobb have some idea how draconic devotees might be altered by their magic, if you want that kind of stuff - this can make for interesting skeletons or mummies when plundering ruins, and as interesting frescoes.

While speaking of interesting skeletons - this may apply to sheep and cattle, too, at least in the later period of the EWF. You could get all manner of fun from a lost draconic legion, ambushed and destroyed in the Elder Wilds - battlefield archaeology at the site of the ambush, then a long series of mopping up the fleeing surivors of that initial ambush. Supply depots from the march into the Elder WIlds, too. Quite a lot of the finds will be boring, Yelmalio stuff, but alongside may be dinosaurs, dragonbone artifacts etc.

For the most part, the EWF still was an Orlanthi culture, though. The farther you were away from Dragon Pass, the stronger magic you needed to have a similar degree of draconic oddities.

3 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

The reason i'm asking is putting more EWF ruins, history and forgotten lore in Balazar than maybe is canon.

You can always have places where the dragonfriends hid before they got the upper hand on the Ring of Orlanthland. There was a period of probably 80 years when the dragonfriends were actively persecuted by the traditionalist ring and had to hide away. They didn't just sit down, though, but waged a hidden war, similar to the war fought by Hendrik against the Bright Empire. If you stumble across one of those hideouts, it may contain defenses against non-draconic intruders, but also teaching objects that may appear weird.

3 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

But buried under citadels, overgrown in Elf Woods, and ignored in troll dens are ruins, lore and items that hark back to time blitzed from the collective memory. Only Gon Orta remembers what, where, how and why and he is not saying.

Gonn Orta was anything but a dragonfriend, so it makes sense that he kept an eye on those who allied with the ancient foes of his people.

3 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

You do have to ask why ancient  giant specialising in the sales of magical lore and artefacts, choose to settle himself where he did?

Living among his kin. The Eastern Rockwoods east of Greatway are Elder Giant mountains. Gonn Orta settles in the only pass between Wyrm's High Pass and the end of the chain east of the Redlands.

[Jon Hunter]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Gonn Orta was anything but a dragonfriend, so it makes sense that he kept an eye on those who allied with the ancient foes of his people.

Gon Orta moved to Balazar in 1042, which is the end of the third council, the dates are very specifically noted in Griffin Mountain.

At that point Balazar has not been in EWF hands so the dragonewt response and cleaning up of the EWF does not deal with the EWF lost artefact's, corpses, ruins in Balazar.

One could argue that The EWF outposts in Balazar maybe some of the sites least cleaned up by dragonewts in existence. The other mayor site of continued EWF presence is Pavis, he is situated directly between the two.

Quote

Living among his kin. The Eastern Rockwoods east of Greatway are Elder Giant mountains. Gonn Orta settles in the only pass between Wyrm's High Pass and the end of the chain east of the Redlands.

They are not his people, he is a different giant from different lands. His choices has a significance.

Now i'm pretty sure it wasn't written in, but its fits and is as a possible story to run.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, jongjom said:

King of Dragon Pass gives a quite a bit more than cattle raids, you know that Jeff.

So did Hero Wars, but maybe you had to be on the conventions and play the weird stuff like the Plundering of Aron quest, or representing an entire tribe with a few players.

Quote

But there is a level of quality that a number of HW/HQ1 products did not hit. That's why the breadth and depth given by, say, Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes is so much better than, say, Barbarian Adventures, the latter which acted as a portal to drain my enthusiasm from the game world.

I'll admit that I had serious problems with the scenario structure that was all the vogue for Hero Wars. It didn't fit my style of narrating.

Quote

For MRQ it looks as Loz's eloquent and balanced appraisal get the vote with 23 Likes (and counting).

MRQ did bring back a RuneQuest, and I haven't said anything about the RuneQuest side of the MRQ business, only about the Glorantha side.

There was a high output of generic and useful material for gamemasters who need help fleshing out their campaign background. Classical expansion stuff - I have seen TSR do this for D&D and AD&D (1st edition), and lots of independent publishers, too. It may be heretical to say so, but few of these considerations are really depending on the game system.

I didn't see anything that made me wish to upgrade from RQ3 rules, or the RQ AiG playtest rules. I dabbled in Hero Wars at the time, in a family game with players entirely new to roleplaying and Glorantha, or in cooperative efforts to share background material between different tribal campaigns. Chasing disappeared cattle - of course, that's how you steer your players into fairy/dragonewt/wyrm... territory, if they are from a rural clan. To chase the Lunar caravan that carries your kinfolk sold into slavery was another approach to get the game moving.

I didn't feel anything was missing in the gaming offered by HW. I had written about clan and cattle raid already for RQ3, and I ran urban scenarios for various systems. When MRQ came out, I really wanted to see a game which allowed me to play in the strangeness of the EWF, or rape the myths of unwitting Theyalans or Teshnans with my team of sorcerers. I was offered neither. What I was offered was fairly ordinary gaming in a God Learner Ralios without the God Learning or the Arkati hunting or adopting, a glimpse of the Jrustelan homeland which didn't really invite me to start a RuneQuest game there (a Hero Wars or HeroQuest game there would have been more appropriate, IMO). The Machine War didn't really excite me. A Black Company style participation in the Kotor Wars might have been interesting, but again, I don't know whether RQ in any of its incarnations is the ideal vessel for that style of game.

I was periphally involved in Gloranthan fact-checking for a few HeroQuest publications, which I found to be fairly easy.

Loz said it all about the value assigned to Gloranthan canon by Mongoose in its initial products, which created MRQ's internal canon. MRQ fell flat as a Gloranthan game, despite claiming Glorantha as its background. If I want to play Gloranthish RQ, I have a game setting of my own with enough story potential to last me beyond pension age. For Gloranthan RQ, I got by with modified RQ3. I am rather curious how different the RQG is going to be from my mods.

Quote

I've kept a few of Mongoose fanzine level products (most written by Loz), at least until better versions can be produced. It is a shame that Loz and Pete did not have the opportunity to be involved with a production team and be given the level of support, quality and love now being shown by the new Chaosium team.

I'd love to see the work Loz did on the Harrek campaign published, no matter in which system really.

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Joerg
spellink

[Joerg]

24 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Gon Orta moved to Balazar in 1042, which is the end of the third council, the dates are very specifically noted in Griffin Mountain.

At that point Balazar has not been in EWF hands so the dragonewt response and cleaning up of the EWF does not deal with the EWF lost artefact's, corpses, ruins in Balazar.

One could argue that The EWF outposts in Balazar maybe some of the sites least cleaned up by dragonewts in existence. The other mayor site of continued EWF presence is Pavis, he is situated directly between the two.

I did a short fact-checking dive into Griffin Mountain.

The information that Gonn Orta is trading with every imaginable magial item is in the rumors section, labeled B for basically true, but with a significant falsehood to it.

 

I said that Gonn Orta was living among his kin.

24 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

They are not his people, he is a different giant from different lands.

You managed to gloss over the first sentence of Gonn Orta's write-up:

Quote

Gonn Orta is an ancient and well-known giant. He was born in Godtime, a native to this region. During the Darkness he was in Fronela and Ralios, usually seen with dwarves.

It states very clearly that Gonn Orta had his origin in the eastern Rockwood Mountains and the Elder WIlds, but that he left for adventures in the west.

It is Boshbisil who is an immigrant, from the Yolp Mountains. He is several hundred years old, perhaps old enough to have accompanied Gonn Orta to the Nidan Mountains, but definitely during Gonn Orta's Pelorian journeys afterwards. He is mentioned to have lived among the Carmanians, known foes of the EWF. Gonn Orta may have aided them fending off the EWF.

Are you referring to Sa Mita and Hen Cik as "not his people"? True, Sa Mita is a lesser giantess, although she, too, claims kinship to the Big Giants that form some of the bigger peaks of the eastern Rockwoods.

 

24 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

His choices has a significance.

Now i'm pretty sure it wasn't written in, but its fits and is as a possible story to run.

The story could be possible despite your mixing up the origins of Gonn Orta and Boshbisil. Controlling a pass makes an ideal place for a sedentary Issaries trader. Access to the magical artifacts from both sides of the mountains certainly plays a role.

[Joerg]

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

Lets face facts.  Every sorcery system developed so far has been deeply flawed.  I confess I prefer the spreadsheet sorcery for one reason and one reason only.  Messing about with tables, calculations, and so forth feels a lot more the way I would expect sorcery to work, and sort of helps you roleplay the mindset of a sorcerer.  In many ways sorcerers were more of a headache for GMs than for players.  e.g. When does their damage resist 10 elapse again?  

I liked the idea behind RQ3 sorcery for my non-Gloranthan (but borrowing from Gloranthan concepts and RQ applications) setting, but I was averse to its default application and the exact nature of its logarithmic tables.

There wasn't any Gloranthan sorcery published for RQ3 except very few (and very meagre) special spells for a small number of Malkioni and Mostali sects. RQ3 Gods of Glorantha offered almost more sorcery-like systems than it did offer spells, e.g. the Lunar manipulation skills for spirit magic, or Godunya's POW-sacrifice based sorcery.

The only way to get a decent handle on sorcery was to play an apprentice sorcerer, or to create an adept from scratch. That resulted in a few spells and manipulation skills in the same range as other characters' secondary weapon skills.

All sorcery was presented as if a sorcerer had to cast a spell under free sky facing a dangerous monster. While there is a need for such magic, there is also a need for magic that has seen preparation in a sorcerous craftshop or laboratory.

I dabbled with Stygian sects when I entered Gloranthan gaming, whether for the Holy Country or for Ralios, combining divine magic and sorcery in a cult. This tended to downplay the need for adept sorcerers as the hybrid acolyte - apprentice level sorcerer became an interesting choice. (I introduced reusability for divine spells on a similar premise as the RQG seems to do, although I was a lot stricter about spell pools. Possibly unnecessary crunch, but anyway...)

Having basically played house rules most of the time, I didn't suffer so much from official rulings.

When Gloranthan sorcerers or mixed users of sorcery and divine magic were presented (rather few - the NPC in Hut of Darkness, in an early Tales issue, and the sorcerers in Strangers in Prax), I wasn't that interested, really. I was playing the playtest AiG rules by that time, which had different limitations to spell effects, which worked unless you wanted to play a Magus.

Malkioni sorcery powered by the magical flow provided by the Malkioni congregations never was written.

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

Personally I seldom if ever dice out such things.  Characters deal with the public face NPCs of such organizations with some sort of back knowledge of how efficient or inefficient they are and what sort of treatment they can expect in the future being based on their treatment in the past.  I could see why you might like HQ for such things, but organizational structures require transferrable systems and assets to coordinate them, and HQ keywords doesn't encourage that.  RQII Empires is only a partial answer imo.

I don't necessarily throw dice, either, unless I want to be surprised. Just having a few numerical values assigned to those resources is enough to have an idea what the organisation/etc. will be able to field and to handle.

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

The barn was sepulchral, the field fenced in with adjoined death runes.  The cattle knew it, and grazed fitfully in the field, in a cold sweat when forced to pasture there, for they had no desire to enter such a field of death.  As for the harvest, the saved grain would not grow, and when ground for bread, it tasted of ash and despair.  The remainder was given unto Ty Kora Tek and Asrelia.  Such bread proved a boon when given as hospitality to guests whom the Clan would prefer to see leave, but most was prepared into siege bread, for it put those who ate it into a mindset for selling their lives dearly in battle, and death in the grimmest circumstances.

So basically, all of this was a prima facie failure with a few redeeming qualities.

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

Orlanth here is wearing his Rex hat.  

There can be more than one Orlanth around - an Adventurous and a Thunderous as well.

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

The hero quest is about weaponthanes and cottars in dispute.  

Humakt is but one of several typical cults for the weaponthanes. His cultists are admittedly the caricature stereotype one might look for, but the default warrior cult for the Orlanthi is Orlanth.

And Barntar is not the god of cottars. He is the archetypal carl, the plowman. If you want to deal with stereotypical cottars, Voriof the shepherd is your cliche.

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

Humakt isn't that cool headed as to not be arrogant in his sense of martial prowess when compared to Barntar, and Humakt will accept challenges where his honor i.e. his public face, is at stake.  The other thing is, that in a hot headed clan, even Humakt will be more hot headed.  Every clan's take on every deity is slightly different.  The Humakt of the Dundealos is not quite the Colymar Humakt, and is certainly not the Dortastor Broo Humakt or the Kingdom of War Humakt.  All worshippers are like the proverbial blind men touching the elephant.

I have dabbled with Humakti patrons for one of my characters, and I explored quite a bit of spectrum there. This type of Humakti was not among those, though. MGWV, I guess, and so will yours.

My haughty Humakti would declare the task below their honor, and not even consider it a challenge. They might consider it an offense, though, and seek retribution in a formal duel. If the offender declines, they'll ask for wergeld instead, and if that is denied, they might take it by force of arms.

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

Well that view places you at odds with the philosophers of History.  History is not a science, it is an art.  

Philosophy can be a science when e.g. applying logic to arguments. It can be an art, too.

History happens as a series of events. It may be written as narratives that omit events or causes.

Historical narratives are something completely different from history. History isn't scientific in that you cannot test it by repetition (even though idiots like Bannon think they can, and even are obliged to), and you usually lost your chance to observe it, too. It takes forensic methods to approach history.

Anybody can produce a historical narrative. Just like anybody can draw a map. Good maps will depict reality rather faithfully, but the map is not the place. Narrative maps will place hedges and fields where reality has military installations and airports. Narrative histories...

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

History is the study of documents and what they reveal about events in the past, and that is ultimately about interpretation and opinion.  

History can be a forensic science. Study of documents alone is bound to be a literary exercise rather than a forensic one, a travelogue rather than a map. Linking documents with other evidence can create maps to past events.

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

Archaeology is the science, and even there many artefacts are open to interpretation.  

Documents are just one form of artefact. Finding the context is the problem in archaeology, and it is in history. And, to be frank, lots of historians suck at realizing that documents need to be put into a context other than their ideology. They produce bad maps. However, forensic study of a bad map may yield more information on the territory it describes than the creator of that map intended, especially when comparing different such narratives.

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

While historians try to be methodical and remove bias from their accounts, they never do.  Ultimately every historian has a bias, however subtle, and some of the best historians have had the most terrible biases.  Edward Gibbon springs to mind.  Undoubtedly a brilliant historian but very much a man of his time as his work and its inherrent prejudices reveals.  I love his work, but I read it well aware of the fact that I am viewing the past through the eyes of a late 18th century British fan of Empire.  

I never came across Gibbon, but that's probably due to my different ethnic background. My "ancient" go-to historian for the Romans is Theodor Mommsen.

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

As to the issue of dating, yeah... that too is more open to interpretation than you might be prepared to overtly accept.  After all, when an historian dates something they are suggesting that it was somehow the important event that signaled a change, but often they misapportion credit.  

Sure. Few historians have ever bothered looking at the nutritional situation of a population in a crisis - how many uprisings of peasants and townsmen can you name? How many famines? The French Revolution is fairly unique in food issues being remembered in the public perception, due to the (probably fictitious) demand by Marie Antoinette that they should eat cake if they had no bread. Judging morale is hard, even in retrospect, much harder when you are in the situation to make a decision.

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

[...] I am using these examples to illustrate the points I am trying to make about history as a discipline, not because I want to argue about them btw.  History is a moving feast, and not nearly as solid as you seem to think, I fear.  History also changes according to the prejudices of the time it is written and the messages it is supposed to convey.  History is intrinsically political, and is inevitably co-opted to fit the opinions of politicians of any given time, and the interpretation of even key facts can be viewed very differently, which is where Anthropology, Political Science, Sociology, Pscyhology and even Philosophy come in.

History is providing narratives, and ultimately maps, to events and developments. As a map-maker, I am fully aware that any map is a fiction that hopefully covers enough representations of facts to be useful. You can have geographical maps with timelines included, you can have topological maps illustrating government structures or the influences of individuals and groups on a decision. You can have linear maps, such as timelines.

Historical narratives are always produced in context with maps, even though the authors may think that they produce them in context with terrain.

On 14.4.2017 at 1:37 PM, Darius West said:

I think that may have been an over-reaction.  I am sure there is more material there that can be used.

Sure - there is plenty gameable material for games with Gloranthan inspiration. For variant Gloranthas. However, I prefer to experience the variation from canonical Glorantha either through a guide how the variation was designed, or if it evolved during play, I want to share that experience, ideally as player, but at least from the campaign log.

Providing a variant simply by shoddy research tells me that I am not in Kansas any more, Toto.

[Pentallion]

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

Lemme see, the cattle raid and tula game par excellence, King of Dragon Pass, sold hundreds of times as many copies as any MRQ supplement. I'd say there are quite a few fans of cattle raids and clan rings.

From a business perspective, the Mongoose stewardship was a disaster. Despite having a good distribution network (much better than we at Moon Design had at the time - we relied primarily on direct sales), Mongoose RQ sales dropped off a cliff. Compare the care that a licensee like David Dunham or Sandy Petersen takes with their Gloranthan product - well actually there is no comparison.

Artistically, we consider it a disaster as well. Mongoose's approach to making books meant even good writing went poorly edited. Glorantha concepts and themes got reduced to pastiches. The Zistorites were reduced to steampunk abominations, the EWF little more than D&D Dragonborn. You might disagree with that assessment - as is your right - but objectively we think you would be wrong.  

But if you enjoyed playing MRQ materials - great for you! Follow your bliss in gaming! Just don't expect us to share your sensibilities. 

The only Mongoose Glorantha I've played was Pavis Rises, but for all the things you knock the product for it gave me one thing that neither HW or HQ gave me:  Hope for Glorantha Runequest to continue.  David Dunham's excellent KODP was the only other product out there that gave anyone any hope.  But let's be honest, the return of RUNEQUEST is what has everyone fired up.  The rise of HW an HQ was a time of gloom for most of us fans.

Now let me say this, because I know you take that observation to heart quite personally and I don't mean to hurt your feelings about a system you put a lot of love and pride into, Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes is a must have piece of work even for Runequest players.  However, I only recently purchased it and wasn't even aware of it until about two years ago simply because the rise of HQ had made me lose all interest in the game period.  You literally drove off a rabid fan.  Only the Guide to Glorantha brought me back and then I learned that a new RQ was in the works.  Had more HQ been in the works, I wouldn't be here right now tossing money at you guys.

It has nothing to do with the quality of the work, which you guys are the best at.  No one compares to your quality of work.  It has everything to do with a game system that was the best and remains the best and that's Runequest.  So no matter how crappy the artwork, the quality control, the lack of canon, all of it.  No matter how crap it was it was RUNEQUEST.   So it was superior, period, end of story.

Because it was all we had.  HQ didn't cut it.  I wish the best for HQ products and I'll be buying Red Cow pt II, but I'm only here to buy that because RQ is returning.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Pentallion said:

The only Mongoose Glorantha I've played was Pavis Rises, but for all the things you knock the product for it gave me one thing that neither HW or HQ gave me:  Hope for Glorantha Runequest to continue.  David Dunham's excellent KODP was the only other product out there that gave anyone any hope.  But let's be honest, the return of RUNEQUEST is what has everyone fired up.  The rise of HW an HQ was a time of gloom for most of us fans.

Now let me say this, because I know you take that observation to heart quite personally and I don't mean to hurt your feelings about a system you put a lot of love and pride into, Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes is a must have piece of work even for Runequest players.  However, I only recently purchased it and wasn't even aware of it until about two years ago simply because the rise of HQ had made me lose all interest in the game period.  You literally drove off a rabid fan.  Only the Guide to Glorantha brought me back and then I learned that a new RQ was in the works.  Had more HQ been in the works, I wouldn't be here right now tossing money at you guys.

It has nothing to do with the quality of the work, which you guys are the best at.  No one compares to your quality of work.  It has everything to do with a game system that was the best and remains the best and that's Runequest.  So no matter how crappy the artwork, the quality control, the lack of canon, all of it.  No matter how crap it was it was RUNEQUEST.   So it was superior, period, end of story.

Because it was all we had.  HQ didn't cut it.  I wish the best for HQ products and I'll be buying Red Cow pt II, but I'm only here to buy that because RQ is returning.

MRQ may have give you hope, but for Greg and I it was such an awful experience that it almost resulted in Glorantha and RQ being permanently delinked.

[g33k]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

I'd love to see the work Loz did on the Harrek campaign published, no matter in which system really.

oh HELL yeah !

 

[Pentallion]

Yep, what I understand from those closely associated with the project, it was really well done and I hope that one day we get to see what Loz has done.  I doubt we ever will, but it would be great to have the HarrekSaga.

[jongjom]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

MRQ may have give you hope, but for Greg and I it was such an awful experience that it almost resulted in Glorantha and RQ being permanently delinked.

Well I guess I can say for all of us that we're pretty glad that this didn't actually happen.

The darkest before the dawn of a new golden era.

[Steve]

11 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Because it was all we had.  HQ didn't cut it.  I wish the best for HQ products and I'll be buying Red Cow pt II, but I'm only here to buy that because RQ is returning.

Aren't we lucky that shortly we'll be having not just one but two (then three, when 13th Age is out) active rule systems to use for Glorantha? It's understandable that not everyone likes the same system, and in fact it would be a bit weird if we all did like the same thing.

But this gives us multiple ways to pull even more gamers into the wonderful world of Glorantha.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Steve

[Darius West]

On 4/16/2017 at 0:30 AM, Joerg said:

So basically, all of this was a prima facie failure with a few redeeming qualities.

Not quite a failure, just not great.  The deal is that Humakt is a death god, and death doesn't do well when supporting life, unless that life is threatened by an enemy for example. The notion being that Humakt is able to make a perfectly adequate structure, but it is tempered by his mindset.  Crucially both Humakt and Barntar can do each other's jobs to some degree.  Weaponthanes are often skilled fighters elevated from the ranks of the cottars, and have a background in those skills, there is overlap.  A cottar is a good farmer and a militia quality warrior, while a weaponthane is a good warrior and a comparatively poor farmer.  They have specialized in different areas.  The point is, this is a hero quest, probably for one clan, to resolve farmer/weaponthane disagreements and tensions.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Darius West said:

Crucially both Humakt and Barntar can do each other's jobs to some degree.  Weaponthanes are often skilled fighters elevated from the ranks of the cottars, and have a background in those skills, there is overlap.  A cottar is a good farmer and a militia quality warrior, while a weaponthane is a good warrior and a comparatively poor farmer.  They have specialized in different areas.

Most weaponthanes won't be Humakti.

And a cottar is generally not thought of as a good farmer, but as a good handiman or cottage industry crafter - if he was a good farmer and Barntar guy, he'd be a carl. The cottar usually provides the skirmishing element of the militia, but may very well be the expert archer or javelineer there.

Carls make up the majority of the clan's mobile warband. They can afford decent equipment, and take time to train to use it efficiently, too. They might not answer the champion's battle, but then some individuals might, anyway.

Is there a reverse to your myth, like "Barntar plows the Battlefield"?

1 minute ago, Darius West said:

The point is, this is a hero quest, probably for one clan, to resolve farmer/weaponthane disagreements and tensions.

As such, it may be fine. It entered our discussion as a stretch use of an affinity to discredit the HeroQuest system for breaking canon, though, and applying it to each and every situation in everyday life. Again, if the product is tainted with death, I have few problems, although I would always call this a stretch, and give a negative situational modifyer even with a freeform BRP magic system.

 

[Darius West]

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Most weaponthanes won't be Humakti.

Irrelevant.  For ritual purposes, the leader of the war seat on most tribal rings, and leader of the Weaponthanes is a Humakti.  Yes, periodically it will be filled by some other cult, but more than any other cult, Humakt is the weaponthane.  Uroxi are a drunken nuisance and largely peripheral to the social order, Orlanthi are too generalist and too political to be pure weaponthanes, Elmali come with their own layer of political rivalries and generalist commitments, and Vingans are mainly skirmishers.  Humakti are the most purely weaponthane cult; what other role do Humakti perform in a clan? So Humakt becomes the default stand in for the weaponthanes in Orlanthi society.

As for your carl vs cottar comments, fair enough, call them carls then, but the people of Barntar would also include cottars.  These people are not primary warriors.  I chose cottars as the carls tend to be more diverse in their religious choices, whereas cottars tend to be more committed to working their way up through agriculture, hence mainly Barntar.

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Is there a reverse to your myth, like "Barntar plows the Battlefield"?

Yes, earlier in the comments.  It all combines into the same myth.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Darius West

[JonL]

I really like how this myth has evolved in the telling, actually, with the lessons that while playing against type is possible at need the drawbacks reinforce why the different groups best serve in the roles that they have. A contest where gods switch jobs, do each others jobs in a funky way that sort of works, yet realize that the community is better off with people sticking to what their best at and respecting one another's contributions to the community is a good story and an instructive myth. I could even see Humakti using it when an army in the field is foraging for supplies or constructing fortifications. I also love the complimentary version helping a fyrd of Barntari break apart an enemy phalanx like a plow cutting the earth into rows, having found a bit of Separation of their own (and perhaps later getting Maran Gor's blessing of fertility on ground where blood has been spilled like in KoDP.). 

To elaborate from before, if somebody brings something of that quality out, they're fulfilling the spirit of the rule you don't like and entertaining the rest of the group. They don't get to just add their PC's hellacious Death Rune rating to the default "No Applicable Ability 6," but rolling it as augment could reasonably boost that 6 up to a 12 or 15 where it's on par with a starting character's lesser abilities. A mediocre myth OTOH, would at best get to roll the augment attempt as a Stretch (cuz really, Death for this?), meaning the best bonus achievable is only +6, while a shameless/boring/uncreative attempt to use one's best rated ability all the time when inappropriate gets told "No." and reminded that augments are supposed to do some or all of: elicit an excited or emotional response, further illuminate (small 'i' )the character, create suspense, and further define Glorantha. One person's "fast-talk the GM" is another's "collaborative world-building." Not everyone's cup of tea, sure, but with the right group in the right frame of mind it can make for a grand time.

Looping to the SA material, has anyone played a game where you were God Learners exploring/exploiting the Other Side? Did the MRQ materials give you any helpful tools for that sort of game? If so, are the ideas helpful for other sorts of experimental Heroquesting?

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by JonL

[Ian Cooper]

On 16/04/2017 at 1:40 AM, Pentallion said:

 simply because the rise of HQ had made me lose all interest in the game period.  You literally drove off a rabid fan.  Only the Guide to Glorantha brought me back and then I learned that a new RQ was in the works.  Had more HQ been in the works, I wouldn't be here right now tossing money at you guys.

Because it was all we had.  HQ didn't cut it.  I wish the best for HQ products and I'll be buying Red Cow pt II, but I'm only here to buy that because RQ is returning.

I'm glad you are back in the Glorantha fold. I'm also glad that a system you love, Runequest, is returning as a way for you to play Glorantha. I'm also extremely grateful that you have bought The Coming Storm and are keen to get The Eleven Lights.

But just as a counterpoint, I came *back* to Glorantha with HW having gone cold on Runequest. I needed a rules-lite engine that was focused on story over simulation; I needed a 'one-roll engine' when I wanted it and blow-by-blow when I needed to go deeper; and I needed the liberation I felt from the game's necessity to co-create Glorantha as part of *your* story. Most of those I play with, and many other people deeply involved in the HQ era output have exactly the same experience: we grew up on Runequest but at our table we needed something that 'got out of the way' more as a system. It's antecedents are all there in Chaosium's output: Ghostbusters and Prince Valiant influenced this product, and its DNA shows throughout them. So even 'back in the day' Chaosium was experimenting with different rules sets for different folks.

We believe there is a need to meet to both people's needs: those who prefer the more story-focused, rules-lite approach of something like HQ, and those that want the more traditional approach of something like RQG.

Now, I still think that RQG is likely to deliver certain types of stories better for me, and if I find the time and a willing group I'll gladly give it a shot as well, but its worth remembering that for many HW/HQ was exactly what they were after.

So welcome back, the tribe is a little more diverse that when you left the hall, but there is room around the hearth fire for all of us.

 

[g33k]

14 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

I'm glad you are back in the Glorantha fold. I'm also glad that a system you love, Runequest, is returning as a way for you to play Glorantha...<SNIP>

But just as a counterpoint, I came *back* to Glorantha with HW having gone cold on Runequest...<SNIP>

We believe there is a need to meet to both people's needs...<SNIP>

So welcome back, the tribe is a little more diverse that when you left the hall, but there is room around the hearth fire for all of us.

<applause>

[Charles]

On 4/16/2017 at 8:40 AM, Pentallion said:

The rise of HW an HQ was a time of gloom for most of us fans.

You say this. You may believe this. Can you prove it?

Among the many possible interpretations of YGMV, one that I submit should be taken to heart - there are many ways to play Glorantha. RQ; HQ; 13G; KoDP; freeforms; board games; and coming: card games and the I don't know quite what to call it: The Gods War. What I enjoy is not your preference, and I accept that you know what you like and that's OK. Can you accept that I prefer something different?

[Pentallion]

8 hours ago, Charles said:

You say this. You may believe this. Can you prove it?

Among the many possible interpretations of YGMV, one that I submit should be taken to heart - there are many ways to play Glorantha. RQ; HQ; 13G; KoDP; freeforms; board games; and coming: card games and the I don't know quite what to call it: The Gods War. What I enjoy is not your preference, and I accept that you know what you like and that's OK. Can you accept that I prefer something different?

I accept that some prefer something different but I do not see how that's even relavent to the conversation.  I think the sales numbers on RQ2 compared to everything that came before is proof enough as to what is most popular.  That is, if I were to entertain your concept that I even need to prove it - especially to your satisfaction - which I don't.

[Steve]

On 15/04/2017 at 0:16 PM, Joerg said:

Start reading History of the Heortling Peoples. 

Just started reading it. Loving it.

[g33k]

14 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I think the sales numbers on RQ2 compared to everything that came before is proof enough as to what is most popular...

Erm ... do we even HAVE sales numbers for HQG available for discussion?

I mean "we" the fans, of course; I expect Chaosium/MoonDesign has the numbers, if they cared to crunch them...  Though why smart people like THAT would go to a bunch of extra work just to jump into a nascent flamewar like THIS .... nah, not expecting it...  

[Jeff]

I love HQG (not surprising since my name is on the cover) and I'm a big fan of Robin's HQ2 rules. I also love RQ and have been playing it for most of my life. I also love CoC. Each of these games scratches a different itch for me. Some people aren't big fans of RQ - fine, they can explore Glorantha with HQG or 13G. Others are big fans of RQ alone - fine, they can use RQ to explore Glorantha. Options are a wonderful thing.

[davecake]

Joerg, there was a Plundering of Aron convention game? I'd love to know more.

[davecake]

I find some of the Mongoose books have some use. If it's a book written by a long time Glorantha fan, especially if Greg had some hand in it, and you also have the Guide and assume the Guide is always right where the two conflict, so you can still get a lot of use out of them. Often there will be a lot of info that is not otherwise discussed much anywhere. Maybe it's fanzine quality, but I have enjoyed a lot of fanzines too. And I'd hate to see the work put in just thrown out.

I find some of them are pretty worthless, but it's not hard to tell which are which. 

[Sean_RDP]

So not to derail the thread, with all opinions about the MRQ (pro and con) aside, would there ever be a time when the Second Age would get another chance? With new/revamped books and a zeitgeist more in line with what folks want from Glorantha. I am talking an official second chance, not just fan material.  OR is that just a bad taste in folks mouths that it would never be revisited in our lifetimes.