New RuneQuest Design Note (15)

[Jon Hunter]

30 minutes ago, soltakss said:

We never had a problem, in any of the campaigns we played.

Initiates in RQ2 simply sacrificed for one-use runemagic and kept it until they got to 18 POW and the language requirement and became a priest. We had POW gain rolls every scenario, so had a POW gain attempt every experience session. 

In RQ3 it was even easier, as we could become acolytes and gain reusable divine magic with reduced requirements.

I fairly often sacrificed for one-use runemagic in RQ2 and cast it to get out of a tricky situation. Normally, it was when my PC reached 18 POW and used any POW increases to sacrifice for one-use runemagic. I remember casting a one-use Teleport to escape from some Lunars and cast a one-use Shield 2 in combat, losing both but surviving the encounters.

The rune magic system for initiates maybe wasn't as problematic as Jeff stated, but it was counter intuitive and the system worked against itself in that cult progression came from not acting like your God and just hoarding rune spells.

Of all the new RQG stuff the Rune magic system is a great idea, rolled out well, with no apparent trade offs. From what i've seen it think it is perfect.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Jon Hunter

[Eddy]

I agree with the Initiate trap, back in the day playing constantly many times a week from about 1982 to about 1987 we had absolutely not one Runelord or Runepriest. It almost seemed the goal was just to become one. Not to adventure beyond one. Indeed all this talk of Heroquesting and stuff still seems a bit daft to me.

[Pentallion]

I love heroquesting and the best stage of our campaigns comes when the heroes reach such levels that they're basically always heroquesting.  I'm really looking forward to the Hero Book coming out.

[d(sqrt(-1))]

15 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

The rune magic system for initiates maybe wasn't as problematic as Jeff stated, but it was counter intuitive and the system worked against itself in that cult progression came from not acting like your God and just hoarding rune spells.

Of all the new RQG stuff the Rune magic system is a great idea, rolled out well, with no apparent trade offs. From what i've seen it think it is perfect.

 

All we did was to say that Initiates recovered their Rune Magic on the High Holy Day, and expended Rune Magic still counted for priest requirements (and if you succeeded you could regain them all quickly thereafter)

[Jon Hunter]

45 minutes ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

 

All we did was to say that Initiates recovered their Rune Magic on the High Holy Day, and expended Rune Magic still counted for priest requirements (and if you succeeded you could regain them all quickly thereafter)

The changes are more radical than that, moving to rune points system, with recovery based on rank and cult involvement. So recovering points at a major temple, in a ritual on high holy day is easy, at a shrine in the middle of nowhere, on your own, on a minor holy day is very hard.

As well as solving the initiate to runepriest issues This means the religious life of you character becomes very important to game play, and pushes people to role playing there cult life and not using it as a character class and abstracting everything else.

Its also the same mechanic working for both at different intervals which I like as a game design effect.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Jon Hunter

[MOB]

3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I love heroquesting and the best stage of our campaigns comes when the heroes reach such levels that they're basically always heroquesting.  I'm really looking forward to the Hero Book coming out.

Jeff gave a brief hint about the new rules for Hero characters in this Design Note:

"Heroes gain an increasing presence in the otherworld, which becomes a tremendous source of power, but also requires that the hero be worshiped to maintain it (that worship can be regular or propitiatory). A hero can return from the dead, and can gain other abilities such as unaging as a result of heroquest gifts. Heroes no longer need to be "super-skilled" - their "Hero Soul" and heroquest gifts enables them to do remarkable things, even if their actual skills are in the range of a Rune Lord or Priest."

(And signed off by saying that too will likely be the subject of a future design note).

 

[Ebaninth]

I am keen for the new version to address the high 90% skills.  Our games would get to rune levels but we then tended to immediately retire as we were sick of the attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Attack or

attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Parry.

Please address this.  I always thought limiting skills to 80%, with anything higher reducing the opposing skill had potential...

Regards

[styopa]

7 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I love heroquesting and the best stage of our campaigns comes when the heroes reach such levels that they're basically always heroquesting.  I'm really looking forward to the Hero Book coming out.

Honestly, I'd like to hear more about this.  As my understanding of what heroquesting is, is both staggeringly hard and fundamentally changing rules of regular existence, I can't really understand how one could do that a lot or find it much fun?

3 hours ago, Ebaninth said:

I am keen for the new version to address the high 90% skills.  Our games would get to rune levels but we then tended to immediately retire as we were sick of the attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Attack or

attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Parry.

Please address this.  I always thought limiting skills to 80%, with anything higher reducing the opposing skill had potential...

Regards

We'd talked about it in my campaign and while we didn't change the rules midgame (mainly because of some complications in application), I think there was general interest in simply saying that a combat skill above 100% allows the player to use the points above 100 to deduct from their opponent's score (kind of like old Rq2 defense).  The toon with the reduced score keeps their original crit %.

In fact, with th RQG single combat skill (instead of split attack/parry) makes this even simpler.

[Khedrac]

8 hours ago, Ebaninth said:

I am keen for the new version to address the high 90% skills.  Our games would get to rune levels but we then tended to immediately retire as we were sick of the attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Attack or

attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Parry.

Please address this.  I always thought limiting skills to 80%, with anything higher reducing the opposing skill had potential...

Regards

A simple way in RQ3 to deal with this is simply extra opponents.  The BRP/RQ combat mechanism makes 2 on one fighting very dangerous as it is nigh imposible to defend against 2 people at once (unless you can split your parry or dodge it is dodge one, parry the other and not attack).

So 2 skill 45% opponents are a fair match for one 90% skill character - he can either quickly kill one while hoping the other misses him (which is the technique where one has lots of armour, magic or mundane so hits are unlikely to get through); or he can split his (or her) skill and take both on at one at even skills.

Now, most 90+% skilled characters probably do have armour points to spare, and probably can ignore low skill human oppostion (unless they get a lucky crit), but consider trolls or other high-strength races - even an incompetent troll can do huge damage if they connect - that blow needs to be negated somehow...

[soltakss]

On 4/15/2017 at 10:15 AM, Ebaninth said:

I am keen for the new version to address the high 90% skills.  Our games would get to rune levels but we then tended to immediately retire as we were sick of the attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Attack or

attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Parry.

Please address this.  I always thought limiting skills to 80%, with anything higher reducing the opposing skill had potential...

Regards

We never really had a problem with this in RQ2, although it became a slight issue in RQ3. RQ2 had the conecpt of Anti-Parry, where an attack skill over 100% reduced the parry chance by the balance, this meant that high attacks were useful and meant that spells such as Fanaticism or Berserker had a benefit.

In single combat between two skill masters, you could get the attack/parry/attack/parry etc combat, but in normal combat we normally ganged up on NPCs, meaning they soon ran out of parries.

[Atgxtg]

On 4/13/2017 at 10:01 AM, Al. said:

And AT THAT POINT Mongoose chose the ElfQuest version. Which (regardless of effectiveness or not as a mechanic) just highlighted my complete inability to influence RPG design!

Don't feel too bad. I've been told by a playtester that even Steve Perrin didn't have any ability to influence the design of MRQ, In fact, he was told that he didn't know how to design an RPG by someone at Mongoose. Kinda ironic. If Steve didn't know how to design a RPG, why make MRQ at all?

[Pentallion]

On 4/15/2017 at 5:43 AM, styopa said:

Honestly, I'd like to hear more about this.  As my understanding of what heroquesting is, is both staggeringly hard and fundamentally changing rules of regular existence, I can't really understand how one could do that a lot or find it much fun?

 

You generally tend to reinforce the rules of regular existence, though changing them can be a goal too, usually of Lunars and GodLearners though.  There are many dangers, of course, but when you've reached that power level, you're dangerous too.  A timely critical can have you leave with a heroquest ability, but an untimely fumble can have you destroyed or having a cursed ability (never succeed in climbing, a trickster who can't hide from his bonded lord, etc.)  And of course, there's the myth itself and what can be gained from it and what can be risked within it.  some myths change the character in ways they wouldn't expect and with almost no way to avoid the change (take saving Hofstarang from Lunar Hell for example).

 

Heroquesting is the heart and soul of gaming in Glorantha.  You should send your PCs on occasional minor quests early and build up to ongoing epic quests eventually.

[Pentallion]

On 4/15/2017 at 2:15 AM, Ebaninth said:

I am keen for the new version to address the high 90% skills.  Our games would get to rune levels but we then tended to immediately retire as we were sick of the attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Attack or

attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Parry.

Please address this.  I always thought limiting skills to 80%, with anything higher reducing the opposing skill had potential...

Regards

Never had much problem with this in RQ 3 as shields and weapons tended to get trashed by the stronger opponent and fatigue set in.  Plus specials tend to either end it or put one at a serious disadvantage.

[Jusmak]

At first it was bad idea to put a fight between two combatants both having plate armor and knifes as a weapon. But when getting older and  having better understanding of basic rules, there comes improvising. It may become frustrating trying to harm a person in plate, so why doing so? Start wrestling, and if you have both hands empty, aimed wrestle to head. Do you get hold, if do, and dice is under martial art skill. you may choke opponent. Next round suffocation rules apply.

Knockback rules do a lot good.

Joint locks were developed for hurting armored opponents. Martial arts as a skill needs a bit developing. It is dull and unrealistic to use in RQ3, there is no sense, that any kick is doing 2D6 damage, more than battle axe or heavy mace or any 1 handed sword. Rather see, that success in martial arts should lead into tactical or positional advantage, leg sweep, intentional knock back, choking, joint locks (instead of throwing opponent doing extra damage directly to arm or leg)

 

[Mankcam]

On 15/04/2017 at 7:15 PM, Ebaninth said:

...we were sick of the attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Attack or attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Parry.

Please address this...

Actually I think CoC 7E does reasonably well addressing this by having an additional level of success ('Hard' = half skill %). 

Different outcomes occur if attackers score better degrees of success.

This is consistent with standard BRP rules, except the additional degree of success makes things much more dynamic in combat.

The CoC 7E Success Levels are:

00 = Fumble

Exceed Skill score = Failure

Under Skill score = Regular Success

Under 1/2 score = Hard Success

Under 1/5 score = Extreme/Special Success

01 = Critical Success

Introducing the additional level of success often breaks up the 'stalemate' dynamic that you are describing.

I am likely to use something like this with RQ unless there is an official ruling that is similar to this in the new rules. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Mankcam

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Never had much problem with this in RQ 3 as shields and weapons tended to get trashed by the stronger opponent and fatigue set in.  Plus specials tend to either end it or put one at a serious disadvantage.

Yeah, I never had a problem with that either. At 90%+ skill and boosted by battlemagic such as Bladesharp, fights didn't bog down. Typically somebody would get a special (it happens nearly every other roll at that skill level, or even more freqently when over 100%), critical, or just chew through the opponent's weapons/shields with the damage enhancements. 

[hkokko]

On 4/15/2017 at 0:15 PM, Ebaninth said:

I am keen for the new version to address the high 90% skills.  Our games would get to rune levels but we then tended to immediately retire as we were sick of the attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Attack or

attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/attack/parry/Fumble Parry.

Please address this.  I always thought limiting skills to 80%, with anything higher reducing the opposing skill had potential...

Regards

This "clink" syndrome was frequently encountered worry in our long campaign with RQ2/Rq3 from 1983 onwards. We played in the first intensive stretch of a campaing about once a week very regularly for almost 20 years or so. Eventually all of the players were rune lords or rune priests with iron armor and shield + protection spells - which means a lot of protection to go thru if you pass the parry. Few of the players managed to get several of their consecutive characters to be rune lords. With enough playing that eventually happens and does not have to take years to do. I think the highest fighting skill number was in the 160s for a Lanbril with Orlanthi and Humakti not far behind. 

Individual fights with high skilled opponent or even with multiple opponents often became quite boring and long with attack/parry sequence lasting for a night or with Cradle scenario - multiple nights waiting for the failure in parry + critical attack combination to get enough thru the high armor and magic to cause any real harm. So "prepared" fights - (players have armor on and are looking for trouble - the opponents as well) became a thing to avoid - go for faction intrigue, mysteries, constrained scenarios (being in a city without your massive armor and weapons), non fighting missions, stripping you somehow of the weapons or tactics, restarting with novice characters and many other things that helped but caused sometimes dissatisfaction from many of the players who liked to be powerful in fights, liked the fights originally and earned their experience and equipment with long play with their well loved characters. Players liked the crunch of the system - that is why we play RQ - but the original RQ2/RQ3 fights broke down into a grind in the above scenarios. Players liked Glorantha - that is why we still play there. 

 Your mileage will vary (and must have done so). 

Edited April 17, 2017 by hkokko

[soltakss]

22 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Don't feel too bad. I've been told by a playtester that even Steve Perrin didn't have any ability to influence the design of MRQ, In fact, he was told that he didn't know how to design an RPG by someone at Mongoose. Kinda ironic. If Steve didn't know how to design a RPG, why make MRQ at all?

An email was sent to the first playtest group that was obviously meant for private consumption. It was, shall we say, interesting. While I didn't agree with a lot of the first playtest ideas, the direction they went in the closed second playtest was even worse.

[soltakss]

On 4/13/2017 at 3:01 PM, Al. said:

What annoyed me about the MRQ add two stats to get your starting value is this:

Right at the beginning of playtesting  I asked how this was going to be addressed, which of the legacy systems from different BRP games would be used?

Add two scores for a category?

Base + modifier?

Base with no modifier?

Or worst of all worlds the incredibly faffy ElfQuest thing where you have to add two scores individually for every single skill?

 

And AT THAT POINT Mongoose chose the ElfQuest version. Which (regardless of effectiveness or not as a mechanic) just highlighted my complete inability to influence RPG design!

Funnily enough, I think this is probably the best thing to have come out of Mongoose's RQ, except perhaps Hero Points. It is a lot easier to work with than any of the previous ways of working out starting skills and makes the calculation easier when casting characteristic-enhancing spells very easy - just add the improved characteristics to the skill to get the increase, easy.

[soltakss]

On 4/15/2017 at 1:43 PM, styopa said:

Honestly, I'd like to hear more about this.  As my understanding of what heroquesting is, is both staggeringly hard and fundamentally changing rules of regular existence, I can't really understand how one could do that a lot or find it much fun?

There are several levels of HeroQuesting, which is important to remember.

God Quest - This is where a powerful HeroQuestor goes onto the God Plane, or into God Time, and marks out a myth or action that makes him/her a deity. What they have done is to alter GiodTime in such a way as to make themselves part of GodTime. The Red Goddess did this, for example.

Other Place HeroQuests - Go to a magical or mythical place that is outside the mundane world, do something there and come back. This allows people to go to Hell, the Underworld, The Sky, the Moon, Orlanth's Cloud Palace, Brithos, Vithela, Luathela and so on. Such a trip is dangerous and maghically powerful, so only the strongest heroes attempt it.

Other Side HeroQuests - Go to the God Time and take part in, or experience, one of the myths of your deity, gaining rewards for successfully completing the HeroQuest. Making minor changes to the HeroQuest can make you a Hero, especially if those changes bring back a new power for your cult.

Magic Road HeroQuests - Where you use a HeroQuest to quickly travel along a well-defined road with predictable opponents.

Practice Run HeroQuests - This is where you overlay a HeroQuest onto the normal world and gain some benefits from doing the HeroQuest.

 

In my opinion, many people carry out Practice Run HeroQuests, many do the Other Side HeroQuests in cult Holy Day Rituals, some do Magic Roads, very few do Other Place HeroQuests and very, very few do God Quests.

In Practice Run heroQuests you can use a HeroQuest to achieve a mundane end, or to help you to do it. So, you could use Waha Frees the Herd Beasts to rescue herd beasts captured by an enemy tribe, you could use Orlanth and Ernalda to steal away a bride from a Yelmalian clan, you could use Summons of Evil to summon a long-standing chaotic foe to a place where you can more easily defeat him and so on.

I would assume that mpst PCs start off with Practice Run HeroQuests, perhaps moving on to Magic Road or Other Side HeroQuests, with Other Place HeroQuests only coming in for more powerful PCs in a long-standing campaign. Few PCs will do God-Quests as it effectively puts the PC permanently in God Time and effectively takes the PC from play.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

An email was sent to the first playtest group that was obviously meant for private consumption. It was, shall we say, interesting. While I didn't agree with a lot of the first playtest ideas, the direction they went in the closed second playtest was even worse.

Yeah, from what I've been told  someone high up at Mongoose pretty much decided how things were going to be and didn't want to hear it when people raised concerns about things.The fact that they went with a closed second playtest is an admission of that. You'd think they realize they have problems with the fans just from the way the playtest went. 

Back when MRQ was just hitting the shelves a lot of people would go onto the forums and raise concerns (or complain) about some of the rule changes. Stuff like, "if you change X then Y, Z, A, B, and Q don;t work right anymore". Apparently just about EVERYTHING that the fans complained about HAD ALREADY been brought up by the playtesters!

I think it was rather telling that Mongoose did MRQ2 so quickly, and that the lead designers for MRQ2 were gamers who were actually familiar with RuneQuest.

 

The problem is, though, is that Mongoose's approach didn't really backfire on them. According too Matt Sprange, something like 75-80% of RPG products that people buy are read, but not played. RPG companies make their money from sales, not from games being played. So it doesn't matter to them if you play the game or not, as long as you buy the books.  

 

 

[jux]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Funnily enough, I think this is probably the best thing to have come out of Mongoose's RQ, except perhaps Hero Points. It is a lot easier to work with than any of the previous ways of working out starting skills and makes the calculation easier when casting characteristic-enhancing spells very easy - just add the improved characteristics to the skill to get the increase, easy.

Regarding "What annoyed me about the MRQ add two stats to get your starting value ..."

I don't like it either. Let's take Influence (CHA + 10). The most charismatic can have base level influence of 28 and somebody with terrible charisma have 15 for example. The difference of 28 (absolute best) and 15 (below average) are too close. The natural talent here is almost 4 times better, while the base level of the skill is only 2 times better. And after allocating the maximum skill-points, it is even more similar level. That renders base attributes to be quite useless.

[styopa]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Funnily enough, I think this is probably the best thing to have come out of Mongoose's RQ, except perhaps Hero Points. It is a lot easier to work with than any of the previous ways of working out starting skills and makes the calculation easier when casting characteristic-enhancing spells very easy - just add the improved characteristics to the skill to get the increase, easy.

That's a great point, and a good argument for the mechanism.  Does anyone NOT hate the POW-bouncing economy and the constant futzing it implies to all related attribute bonuses?

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

In Practice Run heroQuests you can use a HeroQuest to achieve a mundane end, or to help you to do it. So, you could use Waha Frees the Herd Beasts to rescue herd beasts captured by an enemy tribe, you could use Orlanth and Ernalda to steal away a bride from a Yelmalian clan, you could use Summons of Evil to summon a long-standing chaotic foe to a place where you can more easily defeat him and so on.

Thanks for the list and explanation.

Maybe my Glorantha isn't sufficiently "mystical" enough but if my players are tasked to rescue herd beasts captured by an enemy tribe or steal a bride then they...simply go and try to rescue the herd beasts or go kidnap the bride?  (Or try, anyway.)  

Seems either a.) strangely overcomplicated to resort to a sort of mythic-LARPing in place of simply doing the things in a mundane way, or b.) crazy overpowered (and not a little arbitrary) to be able to pull some fantastic ritual more or less out of the cosmos to enable some impossible or near-impossible thing to now happen.  Frankly sounds like the Yu-gi-oh cartoon where they just make up crap to solve whatever new trick their opponent comes up with...

Maybe I need to smoke more weed to have a better perspective.

11 minutes ago, jux said:

Regarding "What annoyed me about the MRQ add two stats to get your starting value ..."

I don't like it either. Let's take Influence (CHA + 10). The most charismatic can have base level influence of 28 and somebody with terrible charisma have 15 for example. The difference of 28 (absolute best) and 15 (below average) are too close. The natural talent here is almost 4 times better, while the base level of the skill is only 2 times better. And after allocating the maximum skill-points, it is even more similar level. That renders base attributes to be quite useless.

Seems like that's more a matter of tweaking than something wrong with the mechanic.  Make the base 2x CHA and your complaint pretty much vanishes, no?

 

[Atgxtg]

It wasn't the base chances that bothered me so much as the fact that attributes had no effect of advancement. Once somebody had, say , a 40% skill , his chance of improvement was the same as anybody else. Not did I like how the game doled out improvement rolls. 

[Ebaninth]

10 hours ago, hkokko said:

Players liked the crunch of the system - that is why we play RQ - but the original RQ2/RQ3 fights broke down into a grind in the above scenarios. Players liked Glorantha - that is why we still play there. 

At least some-one see's it my way ...

It our games (over many years), (90% RQ2, 10% RQ3/RQ:AiG), we found:

• RQ2 Characters always seemed to get to Rune Level quite quickly - they always seems to be in their early 20's.
• Combat Skill sweet spot was around 50-70% a relatively small window.

All of us will have different points of view,  I just need to leave it with the developers to produce their game.