New RuneQuest Design Note (15)

[Joerg]

I used to play with limited reusability already back in 1994. I didn't convert completely to the rune pool system, though - my players' characters had to sacrifice POW for specific spells in order to be able to use rune pool points on them. Wind Words and several uses of Cloud Call simply were part of the examiners' demands for entering the next initiatory level. Shield 2 required two points sacrificed for Shield. You could use your rune pool for one or two point uses of the spell more often, of course, but the number of points invested in the spell defined the upper limit for stacking.

Participating as supporting cast in communal heroquesting (or other major seasonal rites, possibly of allied cults, too, at least for higher initiatory levels) would give a chance to regain rune pool points. Spells cast as part of the ceremony might be regained at once.

[RosenMcStern]

Wind Words *was* used in my latest Glorantha campaign in the 90s. We allowed reuse of divine magic, but you had to sacrifice for individual spells. And Wind Lords used WW regularly - as well as Dark Walk which is an incredibly useful "commando" spell. We never suffered from the "Shield only" syndrome.

[MOB]

On 4/27/2017 at 1:11 AM, RosenMcStern said:

Wind Words *was* used in my latest Glorantha campaign in the 90s. We allowed reuse of divine magic, but you had to sacrifice for individual spells. And Wind Lords used WW regularly - as well as Dark Walk which is an incredibly useful "commando" spell. We never suffered from the "Shield only" syndrome.

Hey I actually got a plot relevant use of Wind Words into one of the scenarios I wrote for RQ3's Strangers in Prax, and was really proud of that. Unfortunately my editor, Ken Rolston, switched it out it to Mindspeech during the editing phase. I can't remember the reason for doing so, but I have to say it was one of the rare times I didn't agree with the rune czar...

[Atgxtg]

Strange. What happened in our games was that characters did advance quickly, but that was probably because we played a lot, typically several times a week.Once the group hit Rune Level fights against foes with Rune Level skill ratings were still fairly rare, but when they occurred  the special successes would usually speed up the fights. At 100% or higher somebody is going to get an impale every five rounds or so. Often things boiled down to who was better at using their magic. 

 

[olskool]

On 4/21/2017 at 5:05 AM, Yelm's Light said:

So, becoming a priest saddles the PC with all kinds of responsibilities in exchange for an allied spirit, a 20% better POW gain roll and a couple of other minor advantages?  Yeah, not seeing it.

People keep saying how difficult it is to become a Priest, but I haven't seen that either, barring permanent death.  I had one player get lucky with a few rolls and have the POW requirement within three sessions of play.  Add a year of service as an initiate, which could be a few months or less depending on the time scale involved for the group, and you've got instant rune priest.  (As it happened, it took him a little over six months to hit Priest status; he failed the examination the first time, at around four months.)

 

I had a number of players who didn't want those "entanglements" either.  The one Rune Lord we did have was "borderline" in his behavior.  I had already decided that "Allied Spirits" were more than a POW reservoir, acting as a liaison between the Rune Lord and the God.  I used to "council" that RL through the Allied Spirit (which resided in his High Llama).  Imagine if you will, a High Llama standing and quietly "chewing its cud" suddenly speaking up (in a perfect British accent no less) about a given course of action.  I had a LOT of fun with this.   

[Mankcam]

Yeah I also ended up using allied cult spirits in a similar fashion by the time I was playing Glorantha with a mix of RQ2, RQ3, and BGB rules.

The POW reservoir was a bonus due to the bond, but I described the Allied Spirit's personality and also gave them counselling roles. The player-character was also able to get access to additional Knowledge skills according to the Spirit's mental skills, and also complimentary bonus to other skill rolls from the Spirit remembering various physical skills that they were adept in when alive.

It just seemed to be in keeping with the concept of ancestor and hero spirits (I think initially they were blandly referred to as 'INT' Spirits).

I would like to see how Mythic Abilities are portrayed in RQG. In many cases it may be access to abilities like these (likely acquired through HeroQuesting) that will distinguish powerful Runemasters; not the standard abilities such as high skills, Runepower Points and Rune Spell access, and Allied Spirits which will be common to all Rune Lords and Priests.

I expect there may be some preconceived abilities within this range, as well as hopefully the structure to design quite unique and individual abilities, just like how many of the notable heroes are portrayed in Greg Stafford's writings.

If abilities of that scope are not covered in the core book, then they could easily be addressed in the RQG Cults Book or in a RQG HeroQuesting Companion volume for instance. But they definitely should be looked at in the rules for the next version of RQ..

In earlier versions of RQ you started out as a dirtcrawler, and reaching Rune Level was more of a goal rather than a given for our group. However if the new RQG starts characters out as veterans then the liklihood is that many will attain Rune Level status much earlier; so there needs to be another carrot at some stage. Mythic Abilities (or another name) obtained via HeroQuesting would be the logical answer.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Mankcam

[g33k]

7 hours ago, Mankcam said:

... other skill rolls from the Spirit remembering various physical skills that they were adept in when alive.

It just seemed to be in keeping with the concept of ancestor and hero spirits (I think initially they were blandly referred to as 'INT' Spirits).

 

Huh.

I had formed a basic presumption that any given spirit (unless associated with an Ancestor Cult like Daka Fal, or a minor-and-recently-mortal demigod like Pavis) would more often be a "spirit-world native" spirit:  a never-embodied / never-mortal / no-physical-skills sort of spirit ...

Does the canon of Allied Spirits speak to this ?

<shrug>   YGWV / MGWV / EGWV (Your/My/Everybodies) ... ?

[Mankcam]

I had a similar assumption regarding the majority of spirits being 'natural beings from the Spirit Realm'; although for PC Runemasters I felt that they would prefer ancestors and cult heroes as their allied spirit companions so I generally went down that path. Didn't get to play it all that much however, due to time factors.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Mankcam

[olskool]

2 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I had a similar assumption regarding the majority of spirits being 'natural beings from the Spirit Realm'; although for PC Runemasters I felt that they would prefer ancestors and cult heroes as their allied spirit companions so I generally went down that path. Didn't get to play it all that much however, due to time factors.

 

Allied Spirits are a good way to introduce Lore or stories to a group that might otherwise not have access to them.

[Atgxtg]

On 4/18/2017 at 7:41 PM, Pentallion said:

First, and I'm sure it will be the last, time I've ever seen George Carlin lumped in with Shock Jocks.

Not necessarily. There is some basis for the link. Part of what made "Seven Dirty Words" and Carlin so infamous was the shock value. People didn't expect to hear obscenities on stage, and certainly not multiple ones. Now I'd say that Carlin had a bit more "depth"/social commentary to the routine than the typical Shock Jock, but there is a basis for the link. 

I think the Mel Brooks to South Park link is stronger though.

[Atgxtg]

On 4/17/2017 at 2:33 PM, hkokko said:

So maths support that it is relatively straight forward and easy to get into the 90-100 range in a year (give or take) of play. 40 sessions to get to a level where things started to get bogged down (see "clink" above). I have had a minimaxing player that uses training every chance he gets so things would require even shorter session amount (on the above it could be 20+ sessions if he could use it after every skill usage increase) to get to 90-100's range.  That would cut the calendar time to well below a year. Getting the iron armor (to get to fully protected clink) and the spells might take longer than that of course as this could be protected by questing and GM stinginess which I can provide in plenty...

I wouldn't agree. While the 40 session or so isn't too far from the mark-that depdns a bit on how lucky they are with improvement rolls and which previous experience rules were being used, if any. In our games most characters joined a cult or two prety early on and so were on thier path to rune level within the first month or so of gameplay.

 

The tricky bit was surviving those 40 game sessions. RQ combats were a lot more dangerous than comparable D&D fights, and in 40 game sessions a PC would probable wind up on the wrong end quite a few impales and several critical hits, and fumbles. The laws or probability aren't nice to PCs on the path to rune level. 

[hkokko]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I wouldn't agree. While the 40 session or so isn't too far from the mark-that depdns a bit on how lucky they are with improvement rolls and which previous experience rules were being used, if any. In our games most characters joined a cult or two prety early on and so were on thier path to rune level within the first month or so of gameplay.

 

The tricky bit was surviving those 40 game sessions. RQ combats were a lot more dangerous than comparable D&D fights, and in 40 game sessions a PC would probable wind up on the wrong end quite a few impales and several critical hits, and fumbles. The laws or probability aren't nice to PCs on the path to rune level. 

Well -the route to my point is that both maths and practical experience of our games saw that getting to 90%+ level is relatively straight forward and we saw many who evolved to 90%+ and even relatively many rune lords. Even rune lords occasionally died but DI helps you there.  We saw quite a few deaths but it is not nearly as difficult than it is thought to be. In practice if you have long running campaign (we had decades of real time with active play) - even in quite  early part of that campaign you are already evolved into clink and wait for the lucky shot. It even did not have to be rune lords. 

My wish is system needs to be something else than "clink"  once you are on the higher end of the percentages. Magic to me is not the only right answer - it may be for some - but combat needs to stay fun and fulfilling even at higher levels if that was what players have come to enjoy and be good at. 

 

[Pentallion]

3 hours ago, hkokko said:

 

My wish is system needs to be something else than "clink"  once you are on the higher end of the percentages. Magic to me is not the only right answer - it may be for some - but combat needs to stay fun and fulfilling even at higher levels if that was what players have come to enjoy and be good at. 

 

I think combat remains fun.  Specials and Crits increase and magic is only so helpful when that happens.

[Yelm's Light]

While I agree that RQ can be deadly, it made my regular players more cautious and prepared in dealing with it.  (I did do a little goosing in that direction in the beginning.)  They made contacts with the local Daka Fal and Chalana Arroy priests, and eventually had a Healer Priest of their own.  They didn't just jump into melee at the drop of a hat as happens in many other RPG's; they took Sun Tzu to heart.  Scouting, planning, and positioning were the order of the day.  And yes, they'd even retreat if they thought it was necessary and possible.  The end result was that permanent death wasn't much more common than in those other games.

It helped that there were no Storm Bull cultists among them, of course.

[Jon Hunter]

2 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

While I agree that RQ can be deadly, it made my regular players more cautious and prepared in dealing with it.  (I did do a little goosing in that direction in the beginning.)  They made contacts with the local Daka Fal and Chalana Arroy priests, and eventually had a Healer Priest of their own.  They didn't just jump into melee at the drop of a hat as happens in many other RPG's; they took Sun Tzu to heart.  Scouting, planning, and positioning were the order of the day.  And yes, they'd even retreat if they thought it was necessary and possible.  The end result was that permanent death wasn't much more common than in those other games.

It helped that there were no Storm Bull cultists among them, of course.

Not your main point but Stormbull cultists are not idiots, just nuts.

In fact fighting chaos requires more scouting, intelligence, and craftiness to compliment the brutality.

I've always assumed that the vicious berserker nature comes from the need to launch yourself over the edge and attack the horror which is chaos.  The flight or fight principle taken to the extreme.

On the wider points a deadly combat system should lead to a more realistic approach to violence. It becomes rarer, more vicious, less formal, more ambushes, more tatical better scoured. RQ combat isn't suited to the D&D dungeon bash.

[Atgxtg]

10 hours ago, hkokko said:

Well -the route to my point is that both maths and practical experience of our games saw that getting to 90%+ level is relatively straight forward and we saw many who evolved to 90%+ and even relatively many rune lords.

That's a sort od deliberate design flaw of most RPGs. If you survive and continue adventuring, you will improve. The only variable is how quickly you do so. Since RQ uses a skill check improvement method, and getting a check in a character's primary skills is pretty much a given, it turns into more of a probability exercise. Realistically, most people tend to cap off skills at a certain point. Either they cannot improve anymore, or they can't devote the time it takes to do so, or it becomes too hard to do so, or their rate of improvement slows down. 

Since there isn't much fun in that, most RPGs assume that PCs can and will continue to improve into the higher skill levels. 

10 hours ago, hkokko said:

Even rune lords occasionally died but DI helps you there.  We saw quite a few deaths but it is not nearly as difficult than it is thought to be. In practice if you have long running campaign (we had decades of real time with active play) - even in quite  early part of that campaign you are already evolved into clink and wait for the lucky shot. It even did not have to be rune lords. 

It shouldn't have been that long of a wait, And the "clink" usisally meant a reduction in the parrying weapon. 

10 hours ago, hkokko said:

My wish is system needs to be something else than "clink"  once you are on the higher end of the percentages. Magic to me is not the only right answer - it may be for some - but combat needs to stay fun and fulfilling even at higher levels if that was what players have come to enjoy and be good at. 

 

Sounds like what you want is some sort of combat advantage mechanic, where they guy who gets the "clink" gets some sort of reward for it. 

[RosenMcStern]

11 hours ago, hkokko said:

My wish is system needs to be something else than "clink"  once you are on the higher end of the percentages. Magic to me is not the only right answer - it may be for some - but combat needs to stay fun and fulfilling even at higher levels if that was what players have come to enjoy and be good at.

In Glorantha, and some other very high fantasy settings like Middle Earth, it *does* make sense that past one certain level of competence magic is the standard way of making the difference. Magic is so ingrained in the world that it is absolutely normal that "being at the top" always involves some sort of attunement with the supernatural - at least by means of owning magic items.

However, this is not true of historical or sword&sorcery settings, where "being powerful" has nothing to do with magic, unless you are a magic user. Conan scorns everything supernatural, and yet he kicks ass big time.

But, as this discussion is about RQG, which is a game set in Glorantha and not generic fantasy, then basing improvements in effectiveness beyond 100% skill on magic should be considererd a feature and not a bug. I am in support of your point of view, but for other settings than Glorantha.

[hkokko]

Recognizing a rabbit hole.... There are multiple points of view and there is no right one - our Gloranthas will vary even with broadly similar rolesystems. Luckily it is still Glorantha   :-) 

[g33k]

15 hours ago, hkokko said:

Magic to me is not the only right answer - it may be for some - but combat needs to stay fun and fulfilling even at higher levels if that was what players have come to enjoy and be good at. 

YGMV... but I need to see SOMETHING beyond the purely-physical, once the conflict occurs in a largely-mythic context.

It doesn't IMHO have to be "magic" in the sense of spells, spirits, etc.  But there really isn't ANY level of purely-physical combat prowess that is sufficient to some mythical activities & challenges, even if those challenges present themselves as "looks like combat."

It could be some sorts of Heroic Abilities (e.g. (making this up, mind you!) --  "GM:  oooh... she scored a crit to your head for... 27 point of damage!!!   PC:  But I am an Illuminated Swordsman, and spend a Hero Point to undo her last strike -- my preternatural understanding of swordsmanship lets me just Not Be Where She Struck.") .

 

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

However, this is not true of historical or sword&sorcery settings, where "being powerful" has nothing to do with magic, unless you are a magic user. Conan scorns everything supernatural, and yet he kicks ass big time.

Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (the episode in ancient Persia, IIRC) describe something almost like a mystic power, the hero's laughter, which makes even gods impotent against them. Conan has something quite similar, I suppose. Not quite a berserk power, but not too far away from that.

[soltakss]

On 5/4/2017 at 1:46 AM, Atgxtg said:

The tricky bit was surviving those 40 game sessions. RQ combats were a lot more dangerous than comparable D&D fights, and in 40 game sessions a PC would probable wind up on the wrong end quite a few impales and several critical hits, and fumbles. The laws or probability aren't nice to PCs on the path to rune level. 

Magic is your friend.

As soon as we could, we made sure that someone in the party had Healing 6, even if it meant pooling all our available money together for one person to buy the spell.

We bought Healing Potions and Healing Matrices and went off to the Chalana Arroy Temple for Resurrection. In fact, when Soltak Stormspear had gained 10,000L, he deposited it at the local Chalana Arroy temple to pre-pay for a Resurrection spell, so that he didn't need to go into debt to pay for one. 

Of course, when people become Rune Priests we gained healing spells, either sacrificed for or traded for. We normally went around with a couple of Heal Bodies in the party, just in case. Soltak StormSepar gained a flawed Healing Focussing 6 crystal that cost double Magic Points to cast but added 1D4 to the Healing, this was attuned by his Allied Spirit Stormpuss, when he had Healing 6 he could cast Healing 12+1D4, which was very handy indeed.