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Effect of runes to personality and emulating one's god


hkokko

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8 hours ago, davecake said:

 

Similarly, I think the Disorder rune and Illusion Runes manifests in the personality traits that if they are strong would be 'cluster B' perspnality disorders such as sociopathy, narcissism and histrionic personality disorder. That is a who a Trickster is, a bad person who can't stop lying and stealing because it is intrinsic to their nature. 

 

I tend to think that the character of Floki from the series 'Vikings' is a perfect example of someone 'touched' by Trickster; he's already shown himself to be a pyromaniac, has committed murder and is sometimes your worst enemy and sometimes useful, (such as being a genius boat-builder). His constant nervous giggle is also unnerving!

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I think runes will touch different people in different ways, and its a role playing opportunity where players can express these differently.

These are the broad principles I think should apply

  • Most runes distort a persons character away from there humanity
  • The man rune is the obvious exception
  • The greater the runic power the greater the distortion of a characters humanity
  • This effect will be obvious with some and subtle with others but it will be there
  • Different runes will have more obvious effect as they obviously clash with the human nature - chaos, death, disorder, undeath, 
  • Other runes which are more in keeping with the human nature will have more subtle effects, but as characters becomes more powerful in a rune they become less human and more an avatar of an rune. examples - life, harmony, movement, truth
  • As a character becomes more powerful in a rune, the rune tries to asserts as much control of the individual as the individual does over the rune
  • Balancing these runes with a strong association with the man rune limits these effects

When I put together WOD:Glorantha I allowed the buying of rune related flaws, and merits which including derangement every time a rune was increased in power, so as characters advance in there Runes, they gain a unique collection flaws, quirks and derangements and advantages that reflect their runic associations.

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On 10/08/2017 at 10:31 PM, Jon Hunter said:

I think runes will touch different people in different ways, and its a role playing opportunity where players can express these differently.

These are the broad principles I think should apply

  • Most runes distort a persons character away from there humanity
  • The man rune is the obvious exception
  • The greater the runic power the greater the distortion of a characters humanity
  • This effect will be obvious with some and subtle with others but it will be there
  • Different runes will have more obvious effect as they obviously clash with the human nature - chaos, death, disorder, undeath, 
  • Other runes which are more in keeping with the human nature will have more subtle effects, but as characters becomes more powerful in a rune they become less human and more an avatar of an rune. examples - life, harmony, movement, truth
  • As a character becomes more powerful in a rune, the rune tries to asserts as much control of the individual as the individual does over the rune
  • Balancing these runes with a strong association with the man rune limits these effects

When I put together WOD:Glorantha I allowed the buying of rune related flaws, and merits which including derangement every time a rune was increased in power, so as characters advance in there Runes, they gain a unique collection flaws, quirks and derangements and advantages that reflect their runic associations.

Chaos clashes with human nature, because Chaos clashes with nature. That is intrinsic to Chaos. Undeath is inimical to human nature, because human nature is to be either alive or dead.

But Death and Disorder do not clash with human nature at all. They are part of it. We all die, we can all kill. There are always some who bridle against the status quo a little and want to change things. All of the power runes are intrinsic parts of the mortal experience. All of the Element runes (except maybe Moon) are intrinsic and essential parts of the world. 

But any Rune, whether it is part of human nature or not, once you start to draw on it for magical power (especially via theist methods, which require direct identification with the power of the rune) will create a feedback effect, where it begins to influence you. Whether from magic or not (and I think it is very unusual, though not impossible, to become that focussed on a single rune for non-magical reasons), if you are extremely strong in one rune you start to become unbalanced, focussed on some parts of the life out of proportion to others. Sometimes this is functional, sometimes it is not, but always it is a departure from psychological normality. 

I don't think the Man rune is special in this regard. A person who is very focussed on the Man rune is focussed on the doings of humanity a great deal, perhaps more than is normal (or even healthy). They immerse themselves in personal experience, in the details of others - but they lose focus on the natural world around them, and on bigger, more abstract issues. Focussed on their community and family and all its small dramas, at its most dysfunctional a gossip unable to see the broader issues beyond those internal to the local community. Subtler, but still a case of distortion of individual psychology. The classic Man rune cults are ancestor worship (concerned with ones family) or City cults (concerned with that local community), both focussed on the microcosm. 

Edited by davecake
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20 hours ago, davecake said:

 All of the Element runes (except maybe Moon) are intrinsic and essential parts of the world. 
 

Couldn't the recurring cycle of the Ages (of linear Time) ending in disasters with attendant birth/rebirth of civilizations/'New Ways of Thinking or Worship, be seen as proof of the intrinsic and essential Moon element present within Glorantha?

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5 hours ago, Brian McReynolds said:

Couldn't the recurring cycle of the Ages (of linear Time) ending in disasters with attendant birth/rebirth of civilizations/'New Ways of Thinking or Worship, be seen as proof of the intrinsic and essential Moon element present within Glorantha?

It could. And the Lunars more or less do see time as a series of recurring cycles.

But it can also be seen in a variety of other ways. The Easterners (well, Mashunasan, the voice of Orthodox Mysticism) see the ages as metaphors for the evolution of consciousness, for example. The Doraddi the slow rejection of civilised nonsense and a journey back to the Golden Age. 

I think only the Lunars think the cycles of Time (or anything else, for that matter) proves the intrinsic nature Moon. But maybe they are right, and it's everyone else who is wrong. 

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FWIW - I think the Moon Rune, when it manifests in someone who is not a Moon worshipper (and sometimes those who are) appears in ways that in the modern era we would characterise as mental illness - cyclical personality changes like manic depression, curious delusions, obsession with things that are of limited relevance to normal life, paranoia in the case of the Blue Moon. For moon cultists, of course, this is very different - partly because the guidance of Lunar immortals and deities (and the Glowline, if relevant) allows them to stabilise and focus on a 'phase', but partly because Gloranthan societies totally normalise acting in accordance with your runes and it becomes normal and functional. 

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On 18/08/2017 at 5:08 AM, davecake said:

Chaos clashes with human nature, because Chaos clashes with nature. That is intrinsic to Chaos. Undeath is inimical to human nature, because human nature is to be either alive or dead.

But Death and Disorder do not clash with human nature at all. They are part of it. We all die, we can all kill. There are always some who bridle against the status quo a little and want to change things. All of the power runes are intrinsic parts of the mortal experience. All of the Element runes (except maybe Moon) are intrinsic and essential parts of the world. 

But any Rune, whether it is part of human nature or not, once you start to draw on it for magical power (especially via theist methods, which require direct identification with the power of the rune) will create a feedback effect, where it begins to influence you. Whether from magic or not (and I think it is very unusual, though not impossible, to become that focussed on a single rune for non-magical reasons), if you are extremely strong in one rune you start to become unbalanced, focussed on some parts of the life out of proportion to others. Sometimes this is functional, sometimes it is not, but always it is a departure from psychological normality. 

I don't think the Man rune is special in this regard. A person who is very focussed on the Man rune is focussed on the doings of humanity a great deal, perhaps more than is normal (or even healthy). They immerse themselves in personal experience, in the details of others - but they lose focus on the natural world around them, and on bigger, more abstract issues. Focussed on their community and family and all its small dramas, at its most dysfunctional a gossip unable to see the broader issues beyond those internal to the local community. Subtler, but still a case of distortion of individual psychology. The classic Man rune cults are ancestor worship (concerned with ones family) or City cults (concerned with that local community), both focussed on the microcosm. 

Our Gloranthas may vary in this regard...

I see races and maybe be even peoples having runic associations, to align onself with rune associated with you race or culture will be easier to cope with than a rune not associated or contrary to your culture or race.

ie a troll aligned to fire rune will have a harder time than a troll aligned to a darkness rune, a mostali associated with movement with be seen as being different difficult and even broken.

If races and cultures have innate runic associations ( and I think this has been established in Glorantha ) a characters would not be as adversely effected by his association with that rune, I also think its is not ridiculous to think that a grounding in the innate which helps define a person nature means that other runes would not have as greater distorting effect. 

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Jon, I don't think we actually disagree on much. Absolutely the surrounding culture makes a huge difference. Being heavily aligned with a Rune that your culture values usually is socially valued and understood and a functional role - while being heavily aligned with a Rune your culture rejects may be more difficult. Though in both cases it's not as simple as that - it's really more about fitting into an understood social role via cult or similar, and most Gloranthan societies still have some understood social roles for those devoted to a Rune out of the mainstream. But being a devotee, or otherwise strongly devoted to a Rune, whether it is socially accepted or not, is still always psychologically distorting. A fanatic or an obsessive is still weird, even if you also support the thing they are fanatic about. 

 

The Elder races are a bit different - and not all in the same way. I do think 95% or so of elves would qualify as devoted to the Plant Rune - but the ones that are not, the Rootless Elves, still have a social role, still are accepted within society. 

And as for the Man Rune - well, those who are devoted to the Man Rune are going to see it as normal and grounding to be obsessed with your community (which is what Man Rune cults are - eg family (Ancestor Worship) or city. Others are going to see that it as just another thing to be obsessed about. To an Orlanthi, a Man Rune devotee is going to be weird for not caring enough about the weather, which determines the crops, that feeds us all! To a Yelmic noble, a Man Rune devotee is weird for caring more about public opinion and other mundanities than about divine justice, and thus fails to understand the true foundations of community. It's all relative. 

 

Edited by davecake
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12 hours ago, davecake said:

Jon, I don't think we actually disagree on much. Absolutely the surrounding culture makes a huge difference. Being heavily aligned with a Rune that your culture values usually is socially valued and understood and a functional role - while being heavily aligned with a Rune your culture rejects may be more difficult. Though in both cases it's not as simple as that - it's really more about fitting into an understood social role via cult or similar, and most Gloranthan societies still have some understood social roles for those devoted to a Rune out of the mainstream. But being a devotee, or otherwise strongly devoted to a Rune, whether it is socially accepted or not, is still always psychologically distorting. A fanatic or an obsessive is still weird, even if you also support the thing they are fanatic about. 

 

The Elder races are a bit different - and not all in the same way. I do think 95% or so of elves would qualify as devoted to the Plant Rune - but the ones that are not, the Rootless Elves, still have a social role, still are accepted within society. 

And as for the Man Rune - well, those who are devoted to the Man Rune are going to see it as normal and grounding to be obsessed with your community (which is what Man Rune cults are - eg family (Ancestor Worship) or city. Others are going to see that it as just another thing to be obsessed about. To an Orlanthi, a Man Rune devotee is going to be weird for not caring enough about the weather, which determines the crops, that feeds us all! To a Yelmic noble, a Man Rune devotee is weird for caring more about public opinion and other mundanities than about divine justice, and thus fails to understand the true foundations of community. It's all relative. 

 

I think we disagree on a little, and its hopefully its not an argument but a exercise in persuasion, or an exploration of ideas via debate.

I think the runes have an effect culturally, phsycological & physically/mystically.

I think we are complete agreement about the social and physiological elements and their effect.

However I believe all races have innate ties to certain runes which are physical and mystical in nature. An Orlanthi who has no ancestors who has ever used the man rune, is still defined by it, because his nature is that of a man. The same a troll darkness and a Aldryami plant. This isn't about cultural or religious preferences its about nature.

I think you are viewing things through the lense of religious affiliation and use of runes only. care to comment ?

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On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 3:31 PM, Jon Hunter said:

I think runes will touch different people in different ways, and its a role playing opportunity where players can express these differently.

These are the broad principles I think should apply

  • Most runes distort a persons character away from there humanity

In Glorantha, humans are composed of Runes. The Orlanthi believe that  people have five souls, one for each element; eight Temperaments, one for each Power; and Seven Attributes. The Lunars believe that ordinary humans have six souls, with their Way permitting the acquiring a seventh soul; the mystical self.

These are all Rune related, and to remove Runes from a Gloranthan human would be like removing all the atoms from a terrestrial human.

So in Glorantha, Runes define a person's humanity, not distort it.


 

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46 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

In Glorantha, humans are composed of Runes. The Orlanthi believe that  people have five souls, one for each element; eight Temperaments, one for each Power; and Seven Attributes. The Lunars believe that ordinary humans have six souls, with their Way permitting the acquiring a seventh soul; the mystical self.

These are all Rune related, and to remove Runes from a Gloranthan human would be like removing all the atoms from a terrestrial human.

So in Glorantha, Runes define a person's humanity, not distort it.

But in Glorantha, most "normal" people have the runes in some sort of rough balance(ish)... sort of.  Mostly.

Instead of saying that the rune "distorts" a person's humanity, note that a close affinity to one rune -- far above others -- creates something unusual in that person.  Some can call it "distortion," but most will agree it's (at least) something unusual in a person ...

 

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55 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

In Glorantha, humans are composed of Runes. The Orlanthi believe that  people have five souls, one for each element; eight Temperaments, one for each Power; and Seven Attributes. The Lunars believe that ordinary humans have six souls, with their Way permitting the acquiring a seventh soul; the mystical self.

These are all Rune related, and to remove Runes from a Gloranthan human would be like removing all the atoms from a terrestrial human.

So in Glorantha, Runes define a person's humanity, not distort it.


 

What i'm driving at here is in the story's of the great heros of Glorantha such as Arkat is that the power corrupts. 

Heros loose empathy and loyalty to there people and tend to become avatars of a higher purpose.

You could argue about words such as 'definition' or 'distortion', but in the stories of Glorantha how I read them, I see a trend of hero's creating doom for themsleves and there people as they are driven by higher forces.

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10 minutes ago, g33k said:

But in Glorantha, most "normal" people have the runes in some sort of rough balance(ish)... sort of.  Mostly.

Instead of saying that the rune "distorts" a person's humanity, note that a close affinity to one rune -- far above others -- creates something unusual in that person.  Some can call it "distortion," but most will agree it's (at least) something unusual in a person ...

 

Oh I agree. Distortion is not an accurate term. It would be like claiming that someone's DNA means they aren't human.

 

3 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:


You could argue about words such as 'definition' or 'distortion', but in the stories of Glorantha how I read them, I see a trend of hero's creating doom for themsleves and there people as they are driven by higher forces.

Heroes are on the route to potentially becoming demigods.

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Well, I don't mean to use distort as a pejorative, just a description, and feel free to use another term that fits better. I do think that anyone who has a Rune at a heroic, or even probably devotee, level is noticeably outside the human psychological norm, but that isn't necessarily a negative thing. 

I think the psychology of Gloranthans differs from ours of course in all the ways that the Bronze Age differs from the modern era of course, but in another way as well - the practice of magic can change the psychological make up of a person significantly, and this is an intrinsic part of what we mean by being very strong in a Rune. And one aspect of this is essentially that anything we might label as a psychological or neuropsychological disorder, some Gloranthan has given to themselves via some form of magic practice (admittedly in some cases not deliberately). And often they just don't think there is anything wrong with it, because it's rewarded both practically with cool magical abilities, and socially with a high status social role. Which means technically, psychological conditions that we might regard as mental illness, even the worst kind of mental illness, are not in many Gloranthans because they are *functional*. The most obvious and extreme example is there are several Gloranthan societies that include essentially sacred serial killers. 

And I do agree that this aspect of heroes eventually getting to the point where they make decisions that are hard to understand from a normal perspective is part of the tragedy that many heroic stories become. Orlanthi heroes behaving like angry squabbling children. Haughty megalomaniac Yelmic nobles. Blood crazed Zorak Zorani or Shargashi, or Babeester Gor literally drunk on bloodshed. 

 

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18 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Oh I agree. Distortion is not an accurate term. It would be like claiming that someone's DNA means they aren't human.

I think "distortion" is a provocative term, but not necessarily flat-out-wrong:  in being true to their runic affiliation they are being true to themselves and the metaphysics of who they are as a being, as a part of Gloranta... but as it becomes more extreme they are "distorted" away from the "norm" of runicly-balanced humanity, they are outside the envelope of normal human-scale affiliations and actions.

 

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