End of the Line for the D100II SRD

[Guest Vile Traveller]

The time has come* to say goodbye to the D100II SRD (recently renamed RetroQuest II), by request of the new Chaosium. It had a good run while it lasted, spawning the Gringe's Pawnshop forums and becoming the highest-rated download here on BRP Central.

* Well, the time will come once Triff deletes the file from the downloads section, because I don't seem to have any way of doing so myself.

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Vile

[Mankcam]

Well rest assured that you were onto a good thing

[g33k]

Did the RetroQuest doc actually copy any of the RuneQuest content?

[Baconjurer]

What happened?

[Guest Vile Traveller]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

Did the RetroQuest doc actually copy any of the RuneQuest content?

No, it's based on the text of the MRQ1 SRDs.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

3 hours ago, Baconjurer said:

What happened?

I should clarify this was not a take-down notice, it was a request from the new Chaosium. The RetroQuest II SRD is perfectly legitimate under the OGL, but I've pretty much lost all interest in RuneQuest by now so I had no great objection to the idea. Time is precious, I don't have an AEON of it.

[Baconjurer]

13 hours ago, Vile said:

I should clarify this was not a take-down notice, it was a request from the new Chaosium. The RetroQuest II SRD is perfectly legitimate under the OGL, but I've pretty much lost all interest in RuneQuest by now so I had no great objection to the idea. Time is precious, I don't have an AEON of it.

Oh that's a relief, thanks so much for spending the time putting together, I have actually used it a fair amount, and it got me interested in checking out runequest in the first place.

[auyl]

If it's legal why is Chaosium asking for it to be taken down?

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Maybe because they have re-released RQ2, but you'll have to ask them.

[soltakss]

Pity, I am sure I downloaded this several times, but cannot find the files.

[Baragei]

Huh. I wonder if they can count on one single finger how many sales they've lost because of this particular file, and how many hands they need to count the net gain.

[auyl]

1 hour ago, Baragei said:

Huh. I wonder if they can count on one single finger how many sales they've lost because of this particular file, and how many hands they need to count the net gain.

Just seems like company strong-arming when there's no legal backing behind it. I continue to lose respect for the new reformed company when they pull stunts like this.

[g33k]

4 hours ago, auyl said:

Just seems like company strong-arming when there's no legal backing behind it. I continue to lose respect for the new reformed company when they pull stunts like this.

Not "strong-arming" at all.  A civil request, which the owner/creator honored.

I have the strong suspicion that, rather than being an issue of straight "competitive product" they wanted removed, it was more a matter of wanting a very-clean and clear product identity, with the new game about to drop.  Since this was I understand based upon the MRQ frame (which has evolved to Mythras) but aimed at ChaosiumRQ2 support (which is about to become RQG), the existence of "RetroQuestII" (aka "RQII," no less!) as a newly-released doc can cause quite a bit of confusion among the RQ-newbies that they are probably hoping to get interested on (& shortly after) Free RPG Day ...

 

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

Pity, I am sure I downloaded this several times, but cannot find the files.

I now have two different versions, which is even better. Thanks guys.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

RetroQuest II was my first venture into the OGL, and it was an interesting and enlightening experience, to be sure. Without a solid SRD or a logo license behind it, the OGL is more of a straitjacket than a boon. Unless there is a lot of material in the SRD which would otherwise be untouchable, the OGL is kind of a trap (though not one that sees much enforcement, it must be said). The D&D SRDs (3.5E and 5E) are useful because they have a lot of text from the rules covering monsters, spells, etc. which allows excellent retroclones of D&D to be produced, as well as a ton of supporting material. The Mongoose MRQ1 SRDs, on the other hand, have very little in them - monster names are about it, and there are no descriptions to go with them.

RetroQuest II is useful if you already know a bit about RQ2, and it was originally created to support Moon Design's Gloranthan Classics with an easily-available substitute for eBay. Now that purpose is somewhat weakened by the re-issue of the RQ2 rules, although of course it would still be useful for the main intended purpose of the OGL, to produce supporting material compatible (though not in name) with the game. You don't need to describe Broos to have them in a scenario. On the other hand, for supporting material you can also use the original MRQ1 SRDs, but I honestly don't see much interest in that compared to what's available for D&D and Traveller under the OGL. Even Traveller is disappearing since Mongoose made the questionable decision of sunsetting their MGT1 OGL licence, leading to the creation of the Cepheus Engine and the wholesale move of 3rd-party publishers away from supporting Traveller.

As for strong-arming, no, it didn't come to that (and my response would have been very different if it had). The new management's request did, however, make me take stock of what I was doing in gaming (in combination with recently passing my first half-century), and I realised that my interest in RuneQuest has trickled away to zero over the past year or so. That's a pretty big thing, considering I've used RQ2 and RQ3 to pretty much run every game over 25 years, although I've branched out considerably in the last 5 years. Now I'm too focussed on BLUEHOLME™ and the AEON:engine™ to really care about developing RetroQuest II any further. Still, it's out there already, as are the MRQ1 SRDs, so if anyone really wanted to use them in some way there's nothing stopping them.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Vile

[auyl]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Not "strong-arming" at all.  A civil request, which the owner/creator honored.

I have the strong suspicion that, rather than being an issue of straight "competitive product" they wanted removed, it was more a matter of wanting a very-clean and clear product identity, with the new game about to drop.  Since this was I understand based upon the MRQ frame (which has evolved to Mythras) but aimed at ChaosiumRQ2 support (which is about to become RQG), the existence of "RetroQuestII" (aka "RQII," no less!) as a newly-released doc can cause quite a bit of confusion among the RQ-newbies that they are probably hoping to get interested on (& shortly after) Free RPG Day ...

 

This is unconvincing. If it was Product Identification they simply could have asked for the name to be changed but they didn't.

Also the biggest rpg company in the world never asked for OSRIC to be taken down even though it was a close clone of 1e D&D. Same with Basic Fantasy.

Instead Chaosium has decided to ask for a srd to be taken down that is completely legal. There's absolutely no reason for it 

Thankfully Vile gave a better insight into his half of the decision but it doesn't explain Chaosium's tactic in doing this.

[g33k]

11 minutes ago, auyl said:

This is unconvincing. If it was Product Identification they simply could have asked for the name to be changed but they didn't.

Well, it's only my supposition.  I do not now (nor have I ever been) any sort of "official representative" or "inside track" person for Chaosium.

11 minutes ago, auyl said:

Instead Chaosium has decided to ask for a srd to be taken down that is completely legal. There's absolutely no reason for it 

Thankfully Vile gave a better insight into his half of the decision but it doesn't explain Chaosium's tactic in doing this.

I don't actually know their "whys" -- and it may not be any single item, but a large number of smaller concerns which, collectively, would be too time-consuming for them to resolve.

In the end, the BRP community is a friendly and collegial one, and just because Chaosium has a commercial interest is no reason NOT to extend them this courtesy when they request it.  As noted by Vile, it's not as if the MRQ srd isn't out there already, or Legend, or other comparable products...

.

[auyl]

So if I have a commercial interest we will all move to accomodate me? Of course not! I'm the one guy standing up saying this is wrong? Big Brother wins again I suppose.

[g33k]

17 minutes ago, auyl said:

So if I have a commercial interest we will all move to accomodate me? Of course not! I'm the one guy standing up saying this is wrong? Big Brother wins again I suppose.

You have understood exactly OPPOSITE of my meaning:  I would suggest that if Vile's work had had some impact on a non-commercial interest, and that interested party had asked him to remove it... he probably would have complied, out of courtesy.  I am saying that just because Chaosium DOES have a commercial interest, is no reason NOT to extend them that same courtesy.

And if a company like Chaosium strikes you as "Big Brother..."  Ooof.  Dude, my neighborhood dog-walker rules the market with an IRON FIST.   Ummm.... not to be taken as a challenge to the new Netflix Original Series(tm) or the Marvel Cinematic Universe(tm) or the Fearsome Sith Mouse (tm) who rules them -- us -- all...

 

[auyl]

Forget it. No one has any right to ask someone to stop something that is legal and not violating copyright. NO ONE not me, not you and especially Chaosium. They should never have asked him to do that with the influence they have on these forums. It's nice to know you experience with the company has been wonderful, mine hasn't. Many others haven't either.

[auyl]

And knock off with the insults and mockery. Grow up.

[g33k]

My apologies, auyl.  I'm obviously not helping anything here.

Compliments to Vile on his nice work (on this & other projects), and in fact kudos to him all round.

I'm out of the thread, I think.

 

[soltakss]

If anyone wants a copy, now that it is not available via download, just drop me a PM - I have two versions now.

There are various supplements that are available from other people, not from the original authors, for whatever reason. Sharing is good.

The various SRDs are also good as they are under the OGL and can be freely used, under the OGL.

[Baconjurer]

On 5/7/2017 at 11:52 AM, soltakss said:

If anyone wants a copy, now that it is not available via download, just drop me a PM - I have two versions now.

There are various supplements that are available from other people, not from the original authors, for whatever reason. Sharing is good.

The various SRDs are also good as they are under the OGL and can be freely used, under the OGL.

At the end of the day, you can't ever really delete something that was on the internet.

[Yelm's Light]

On 5/6/2017 at 8:20 PM, auyl said:

So if I have a commercial interest we will all move to accomodate me? Of course not! I'm the one guy standing up saying this is wrong? Big Brother wins again I suppose.

Hardly.  Chaosium has the right to defend its intellectual property, including from dilution of demand, whatever the extent.  It's not like they served Vile with a legal demand anyway; they made a request.  The 'influence' that you claim they have because of the forums is irrelevant.