Pavis in the time of RQG

[MOB]

6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It depends if your clan takes thralls or not. If not then it depends on how compassionate you are. If the settlers move out peacefully and then you slaughter them, then not very.

More from the Time of Two Counts document:

The Fate of the Grantlands

Although Nomad outriders swept through the Grantlands on their way to Moonbroth in 1624, Raus of Rone, Duke of Weis Domain, prayed the Lunar forces would be able to defeat them as soundly as they had done fourteen years earlier. These hopes were soundly shattered on news of the Lunar rout. Many of his settlers began fleeing – either upriver to Sun County or downriver to the port of Corflu – even before they had heard Pavis too had fallen.

With the Armistice of Prax now broken, the Duke was realistic enough to know that without the Lunar army the Grantlands were completely defenseless. Raus gathered as many of his remaining people together as he could to make their escape before the nomad onslaught. He quickly assembled together a large flotilla, comprising riverboats, barges, newtling rafts (and just about anything else that could float) and set off for Corflu and safety. Behind them, his proud little capital of Ronegarth and the settlements around it burned.

Many times the nomads sorely harassed the convoy, but mercifully the river was high and fast at that time of the year. The adroit water skills of their newtling river guides also aided the passage: Raus’s patient fostering of cordial relations with the formerly-hostile Five Eyes Temple proving worthwhile in the end.

With better hope of plunder back upriver, the nomad pursuit gradually tapered off. After a final failed assault near Bilos Gap, the flotilla was unmolested for the remainder of the journey. From Corflu, the refugees dispersed. Raus presumably also took ship, for parts unknown (he was certainly not there when the port was sacked by the Wolf Pirates later that year).

In mid-1626, Count-in-Exile Belvani sent his Light Captain Dignan Yellowscale to occupy and hold Duke Raus’s former domain. He planned to use the stronghold of Ronegarth as a staging post for retaking Sun County from the south. This scheme came awry when Dignan found the fortifications there had been razed by powerful magic. Any settlers had already either fled with Raus, been carried off by the nomads, or were dead.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Re-arranging Pavis to the same level of detail would be a major overhaul.

I don't think so. You just need to decide if an npc survived or not. If they died, change their name use the same stats. Factions - list their new faction if needed. Damage to buildings? The Flintnail cult are on that. 

14 hours ago, Pentallion said:

What, if anything, has changed in the Rubble with the absence of the Lunars?

I don't think that much. The elder races continue their plans. A different human group now controls new Pavis, but they are basically the same. Maybe a few more Praxians in the rubble, but likely less as they're heading to Dragon Pass. Argrath is likely actively searching for artefacts with his warlocks, so nothing new there - weird lunars replaced by weird orlanthi. In my mind the rubble is a static ruin, with a very much entrenched static population. It's very inward looking. Is the rubble going to do anything in the Hero Wars - no. Will provide cool maguffins to help the fight - yes. 

[Pentallion]

Thank you all for the great feedback!

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

From our perspective there are far more upsides to resetting the default setting date than staying another 30 years in 1618-1621:

1. It gets rid of the "Lunar Occupation" straightjacket for adventures set in Sartar, New Pavis, or the Holy Country. 

2. It introduces moral ambiguity while allowing mixed parties (Sartarites and Lunars in the same party - yeah!).

3. It opens up events to alternate paths. The events of 1621 to 1625 are well documented. Between King of Sartar, the Guide to Glorantha, the 11 Lights, and the Glorantha Sourcebook, that period is as described as 1613 to 1621, if not more so. 

4. it makes the setting more accessible to newbies who don't have to deal with 30+ years of speculation of the same 3 year period.

Finally, and perhaps most important, you are more likely to get far more scenarios and campaigns as a result. 

It also means you can play in the Hero Wars, rather than just the preliminaries.

7 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

but I kind of liked the lunar occupation straight jacket.

It's not just in Sartar, Pavis, or the Holy Country.  The entire southern Provinces are in turmoil and confusion.  You can become the new King of Saird (at least before Argrath gets there!), or reestablish the trade with the dwarfs of Imther, or unite the Aggari tribes against the chaotic hordes of Dorastor, or go questing for the followers of the White Moon, etc.

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It also means you can play in the Hero Wars, rather than just the preliminaries.

It's not just in Sartar, Pavis, or the Holy Country.  The entire southern Provinces are in turmoil and confusion.  You can become the new King of Saird (at least before Argrath gets there!), or reestablish the trade with the dwarfs of Imther, or unite the Aggari tribes against the chaotic hordes of Dorastor, or go questing for the followers of the White Moon, etc.

Exactly. This opens the setting up in a way that having everything conquered by the Lunar Empire does not.

[Zit]

counts, kings, emperors... I think a republic like Venice or Rome, or a kind of Athenian-like democracy, or why not fractions turning over in an preset order would better fit to Pavis.

Glorantha is a place where any kind of governments could be imagined.

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

I don't think so. You just need to decide if an npc survived or not. If they died, change their name use the same stats. Factions - list their new faction if needed. Damage to buildings? The Flintnail cult are on that. 

The factions need a major re-definition, and their relations to the various groups of supporters of Argrath do so, too. Then you need all those lieutenants and deputies of Argrath, both for when he is around and when not.

Something like the Sartar High Council 1628 might be useful to have in order to get to know Argrath's current set of companions, not just for Pavis, but for the entire campaign.

 

[David Scott]

As per Pavis GtA there aren't many factions at all:

Major

The Imperials - This was the Pro -Lunar Faction and it's now gone and replaced by the formally minor group:

Orlanth Allies - These are now a major group replacing the Imperials.

The City Peacers - are the conservatives who want as little change as possible.

The Free Pavisites - wanted the Lunars out of Paris. This has of course dissolved but is likely replaced with a group of the same name wanting the Nomads and or Orlanthi out of Pavis.

Minor

Friends of the Empire - Well the Empire's gone and so has this faction.

Friends of the City - These remain. With who ever is robbing them of their power and prestige now the current target.

The Ingilli Riverside Association - switch allegiance from the Lunars to the Orlanthi.

The City Council

This sits under the King of Pavis and so continues to run the city as before. I don't think Argrath will sit on the Council as he's the King. The King of Pavis isn't an Orlanthi title, it was instituted in 860 and approved by Pavis himself:

Quote

the city leaders met and selected a new king from among themselves. Pavis approved, and the Arrowsmith Dynasty took rule of the city. 

The mechanism for this clear. Argrath says he's King of Pavis and the City Council approve him. Of course it's a set up, but the council will certainly take action on what he says. Argrath isn't a fool, he doesn't want to hang around and actually rule the place. So he won't stir the waters up too much, he wants the city as a central resource for the region. There's likely some council changes, he's not going to put outsiders in. They will be Pavisites, local Orlanthi and Praxians loyal to him (perhaps only to his face in the case of the Free Pavisites):

Hallarax the Singer is likely ousted as he was pro-lunar (likely dead)

Hetaera Thessen - lunar priestess gone. Replaced by one of Argrath's trusted Orlanthi Priests to be based in Pavis, for fun I'd make him/her a Pol-Joni Nomad.

Haloric Glowbrow is likely a pawn in the machinations of the Yelmalio problems as per @MOB's writings. So may be replaced.

A couple of the others have likely died in the assault on the city (just for colour). 

 

[Jon Hunter]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

As per Pavis GtA there aren't many factions at all:

Major

The Imperials - This was the Pro -Lunar Faction and it's now gone and replaced by the formally minor group:

Orlanth Allies - These are now a major group replacing the Imperials.

The City Peacers - are the conservatives who want as little change as possible.

The Free Pavisites - wanted the Lunars out of Paris. This has of course dissolved but is likely replaced with a group of the same name wanting the Nomads and or Orlanthi out of Pavis.

Minor

Friends of the Empire - Well the Empire's gone and so has this faction.

Friends of the City - These remain. With who ever is robbing them of their power and prestige now the current target.

The Ingilli Riverside Association - switch allegiance from the Lunars to the Orlanthi.

The City Council

This sits under the King of Pavis and so continues to run the city as before. I don't think Argrath will sit on the Council as he's the King. The King of Pavis isn't an Orlanthi title, it was instituted in 860 and approved by Pavis himself:

The mechanism for this clear. Argrath says he's King of Pavis and the City Council approve him. Of course it's a set up, but the council will certainly take action on what he says. Argrath isn't a fool, he doesn't want to hang around and actually rule the place. So he won't stir the waters up too much, he wants the city as a central resource for the region. There's likely some council changes, he's not going to put outsiders in. They will be Pavisites, local Orlanthi and Praxians loyal to him (perhaps only to his face in the case of the Free Pavisites):

Hallarax the Singer is likely ousted as he was pro-lunar (likely dead)

Hetaera Thessen - lunar priestess gone. Replaced by one of Argrath's trusted Orlanthi Priests to be based in Pavis, for fun I'd make him/her a Pol-Joni Nomad.

Haloric Glowbrow is likely a pawn in the machinations of the Yelmalio problems as per @MOB's writings. So may be replaced.

A couple of the others have likely died in the assault on the city (just for colour). 

 

OK the changes are simple, but where is the tension now?

Whats the story that the players can be involved in ?

Who is the bogeyman/enemy?

30 years of Glorantha law mean you can answer those questions, but for a new player not as familiar with Glorantha as you, there isn't a simple meta story with tension to hang you hat on.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Jon Hunter

[7Tigers]

From my side, I have no problem with the jump in time for the official line.
It is just a little sad to not have (for now?) an official praxian product dealing with the uprising in details (as it seems it was the case in the old aborted HeroWars Pavis Campaign).

[MOB]

20 hours ago, Zit said:

counts, kings, emperors... I think a republic like Venice or Rome, or a kind of Athenian-like democracy, or why not fractions turning over in an preset order would better fit to Pavis.

Glorantha is a place where any kind of governments could be imagined.

Indeed, there's the People's Democratic Republic of Wexten in Safelster, for example.

[MOB]

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

As per Pavis GtA there aren't many factions at all:

Major

The Imperials - This was the Pro -Lunar Faction and it's now gone and replaced by the formally minor group:

Orlanth Allies - These are now a major group replacing the Imperials.

The City Peacers - are the conservatives who want as little change as possible.

The Free Pavisites - wanted the Lunars out of Paris. This has of course dissolved but is likely replaced with a group of the same name wanting the Nomads and or Orlanthi out of Pavis.

Minor

Friends of the Empire - Well the Empire's gone and so has this faction.

Friends of the City - These remain. With who ever is robbing them of their power and prestige now the current target.

The Ingilli Riverside Association - switch allegiance from the Lunars to the Orlanthi.

The City Council

This sits under the King of Pavis and so continues to run the city as before. I don't think Argrath will sit on the Council as he's the King. The King of Pavis isn't an Orlanthi title, it was instituted in 860 and approved by Pavis himself:

The mechanism for this clear. Argrath says he's King of Pavis and the City Council approve him. Of course it's a set up, but the council will certainly take action on what he says. Argrath isn't a fool, he doesn't want to hang around and actually rule the place. So he won't stir the waters up too much, he wants the city as a central resource for the region. There's likely some council changes, he's not going to put outsiders in. They will be Pavisites, local Orlanthi and Praxians loyal to him (perhaps only to his face in the case of the Free Pavisites):

Hallarax the Singer is likely ousted as he was pro-lunar (likely dead)

Hetaera Thessen - lunar priestess gone. Replaced by one of Argrath's trusted Orlanthi Priests to be based in Pavis, for fun I'd make him/her a Pol-Joni Nomad.

Haloric Glowbrow is likely a pawn in the machinations of the Yelmalio problems as per @MOB's writings. So may be replaced.

A couple of the others have likely died in the assault on the city (just for colour). 

 

By 1627 Haloric Glowbrow has died, an eventual consequence of the heroic personal sacrifices he made during The Great Winter. His daughter Rana Goldenhair now sits on the council, representing Suntown. She is the defacto head of the Eiskolli family in Pavis, and is married to Rurik Runespear. 

(A Yelmalio convert of modest origins, Rurik was considered an acceptable suitor for Rana only after becoming celebrated and wealthy from his many successful forays into the Pavis Rubble. Rurik disappeared shortly after the wedding, at the time of the Cradle episode, and was eventually declared 'dead'. Rurik returned triumphantly with Argrath Whitebull in 1624, and reclaimed his bride, but spends most of his time away campaigning in Dragon Pass.)

Edited May 10, 2017 by MOB

[Jeff]

22 hours ago, Zit said:

counts, kings, emperors... I think a republic like Venice or Rome, or a kind of Athenian-like democracy, or why not fractions turning over in an preset order would better fit to Pavis.

Glorantha is a place where any kind of governments could be imagined.

Glorantha itself yes. But the Orlanthi tend to have kings (or queens) who serve as the high priest of Orlanth (or sometimes Ernalda) for the associated kinship groups (clans, tribes, etc.). That being said, there's a lot of variation in that from a tribal priest-king in Clearwine or The Hold to the sacred Prince in Boldhome or the Queen in Nochet, the Ruling Ring of Dragon Pass, or the King of Dragon Pass.

[Joerg]

Part of the problem are the Orlanthi possession laws that tie all but the most personal items to the clan, not even the household or the bloodline. Your average clansperson will wear clothing belonging to the household, as a result of a grant of material or even the finished product from the clan. Their personal weapon will be on loan from the household, etc.

I suppose that possession laws are even worse in Dara Happa, where it is likely that the possessions of entire villages to the last physical item are considered property of their lord. The people themselves may or may not be exempt from this.

The concept of personal possession comes to bear mainly in cities where people without too many personal connections to the majority of the inhabitants live. Adventurers in Pavis are one such group - basically clan and therefore lawless, they may apply for citizenship (through membership in the Pavis Cult), and gain at least some marginal legal backing.

Note that more personal ownership doesn't necessarily mean a better hold on one's property. A big factor in the popularity of the Katharians in the Pyrenees appears to have been their lack of claim on the tithe - shepherds were obliged to tithe one tenth of all the lambs born in their herds by the Catholic church, causing a drain that the normal reproduction rate of the beasts couldnt't really sustain. (Source - Montaillou)

[TRose]

 As far as Corflu after it was sacked by the Wolf Pirates.

  A large part of the population of Corflu was made up of Riverfolk , who I doubt would have stuck around to be pillaged and sold into slavery by the Wolf Pirates. They would have quickly took to their rafts and boats and headed into the safety of the bog while the Lunar garrison and settlers where dealted with by the Wolf Pirates. And return  only after the Wolf Pirates left

  Same with the Trolls, I doubt they would have stayed and fought a losing battle when they had a safe place to retreat to. And if the Trolls took their Dragonflies with them I doubt the Wolf Pirates would stay long. The Wolf pirates might be willing to Fight a horde of Chaos horrors, but to fight a horde of Mosquitos  is another thing.

 . Corflu would be smaller and poorer then when the Lunars where there, but every now and then a Ship would stop and trade for goods from Prax or buy Provisions and the Riverfolk would continue their life as they had since the start of time.

[MOB]

9 hours ago, TRose said:

 As far as Corflu after it was sacked by the Wolf Pirates.

  A large part of the population of Corflu was made up of Riverfolk , who I doubt would have stuck around to be pillaged and sold into slavery by the Wolf Pirates. They would have quickly took to their rafts and boats and headed into the safety of the bog while the Lunar garrison and settlers where dealted with by the Wolf Pirates. And return  only after the Wolf Pirates left

  Same with the Trolls, I doubt they would have stayed and fought a losing battle when they had a safe place to retreat to. And if the Trolls took their Dragonflies with them I doubt the Wolf Pirates would stay long. The Wolf pirates might be willing to Fight a horde of Chaos horrors, but to fight a horde of Mosquitos  is another thing.

 . Corflu would be smaller and poorer then when the Lunars where there, but every now and then a Ship would stop and trade for goods from Prax or buy Provisions and the Riverfolk would continue their life as they had since the start of time.

A lot of refugees ended up in Corflu during the Great Winter, though most didn't stick around.

When Sor Eel was recalled back to Dragon Pass most of the hungry army went with him, having requisitioned all the food they could lay their hands on. Count Solanthos rebuffed Sor Eel’s attempts at a levy in Sun County, but most of Pavis County and virtually all of the Grantlands were picked clean, causing great suffering.

The Sun Dome Temple was inundated with hungry Grantlanders seeking sanctuary, who by custom could not be turned away, but those refugees who made it to Corflu were bluntly informed by the Lunar garrison they had no food to spare. This forced many in desperation to take passage on Vadeli galleys, the only seafarers able to visit the port during the Windstop. Who knows where they ended up?

[David Scott]

18 hours ago, MOB said:

This forced many in desperation to take passage on Vadeli galleys, the only seafarers able to visit the port during the Windstop. Who knows where they ended up?

The Vadeli are known baby eaters. Once they'd eaten the babies they'd start on the adults.

I know this is true as @metcalph said as much in 1996 here http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd3/1996.08/0727.html

Quote

For them to eat children is just as natural as eating or drinking - it is an act of life preservation

There you go - an act of life preservation.

[7Tigers]

25 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The Vadeli are known baby eaters. Once they'd eaten the babies they'd start on the adults.

I know this is true as @metcalph said as much in 1996 here http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd3/1996.08/0727.html

There you go - an act of life preservation.

And it was already true in 1994, according to Sandy :-)
http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/ndaily/1994.04/3787.html

Quote

The Vadeli eat children in dark rituals. [common]
The Vadeli voluntarily mate with broos and scorpion queens. [common]
A Red Vadeli must slay one of his own parents or grandparents to be initiated as a warrior. [common]

 

[David Scott]

8 minutes ago, 7Tigers said:

according to Sandy

I discounted Sandy as he said

Quote

The best-known tales and their frequency are as follows:

He said they were tales, Peter actually knows.

[SDLeary]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

I discounted Sandy as he said

He said they were tales, Peter actually knows.

So, you are saying that Peter is actually Vadeli. 

SDLeary

[Joerg]

Note that the Vadeli get their immortality benefits only from eating their own babies. Not that this will stop them from eating other people,,,

[Rob Darvall]

John Hunter: "Who is the bogeyman/enemy?"

I'd nominate the Uz first off, The Mostali could become involved in whatever it is that the orthodox Mostali are doing, The Garden could get expansionary impulses, Sables?, the reactionary Sundome faction, various Nomads seeking loot (good luck uniting even an Orlanthi all of that mob), Chaos (starting with Broo and going on up to Krashti or worse, the Devil, or part of him, could come out of the Puzzle Canal), Argrath could even become the enemy a'la Arkat.

 

[Terry Mullins]

Is there a timeline listing the events in Prax/Pavis 1621 to 1625?

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Terry Mullins said:

Is there a timeline listing the events in Prax/Pavis 1621 to 1625?

I have some general Timelines at http://www.soltakss.com/timeline.html, http://www.soltakss.com/pavis01a.html and http://www.soltakss.com/pavis01.html but I am not sure how accurate they are.

[Terry Mullins]

Thamks