defense skill

[jbbourgoin]

I'm wondering about the the disparition of the defense skill in RQ3 in favor of the dodge skill. What are the reasons of that ? The defense skill seems to me a pretty simple skill to use ( a simple substraction ), and he can be use in addition to parrying.

The dodge seems to be an "active" version of the defense skill. Consequences : you can't dodging and parrying at the same time, you have to choose between them, and you can miss a dodge.

Is the defense skill to powerful ?

I have never played RQ3, and I'm a beginner D.M. with RQ2. To a beginner point of view, defense seem cool and simple, but what's the opinion of yours, the "veterans" ?

[Noita]

I use both in my RQ.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Good question 

I haven't played a game for a long time, so can't speak from recent play testing. The only negative that springs to mind, is that it requires an extra calculation in all attacks, where as with dodge it only involves a roll (not a calculation) when the dodge action is taken. So perhaps defence slows down combat a little for those not used to subtracting numbers from each roll? I suppose Defence is in the same mould as the RQ3 modifiers for unusual combat situations ( Terrain such as high ground etc) , providing a straight forward modifier to the attack roll for being a slippery fish so to speak. It makes sense, just maybe 1 more calculation then is necessary. Be interesting to hear the views of others on the forum though.  

 

I'm sure this is one thing that has been considered by the designers of the new RQG. It will be very interesting to see what way they have gone with the new ruling? Defence, dodge, or something new? 

 

Edit: Though as mentioned defence does presume that you are trying to dodge/manoeuvre from "every" attack, where as with RQ3 you have to make a decision on whether to dodge or parry. So there is also a conceptual reason in the design of both. Conceptually RQ2 defence makes sense to me, but practically it may slow the game down a little. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

In favour of the RQ3 approach, it lends itself to thinking more tactically, which i quite like. Are you going to spend the round being defensive using dodge & parry, or are you going to be assertive and press the attack etc. 

[styopa]

Defense was, in my view, way too powerful.

It essentially was giving the defender a THIRD inherent layer of protection: in addition to their armor and an active parry opportunity, they got the passive 'defense minus'.  

Not to mention, while its logical underpinning in melee kind of made sense, I'm not sure it was quite as valid vs missile weapons?  Finally, it had an entirely unique increase mechanism compared to every other skill.  

IIRC I don't believe there was anything in the rules about defense only applying when the target was alert and aware...implying that even asleep you somehow got your defense mod?

I sincerely hope that they have not brought back inherent defense in RQG.  RQ3 was pretty concise, and forced players to make tactically interesting tradeoffs:
- dodge (negates ALL incoming damage on that strike incl knockback, but is reduced by ENC.  Can repeat infinitely against multiple attacks by same attacker.) vs

- parry (only negates a fixed amount of damage, may still knock back, ultimately ablative, not affected by ENC)

We had a couple of house rules that made it a little more realistic:

A.) one can dodge hand-thrown missiles, or any missile firing at extreme range.  (We later allowed dodging non-thrown missiles within effective range, but you had to have a success 1 level better than the attack's success)

B.) any dodge attempt may move the character (when we fought with minis using a hex grid) - on a dodge, roll a d6: 

1.  character moves 1 hex left
2.  character moves 1 hex right
3.  character stays in same hex
4.  character moves 1 hex left and back
5.  character moves 1 hex right and back
6.  character moves 1 hex back

(meaning it's pretty hard to hold a line with a bunch of goofballs prancing around dodging stuff)

[Aycorn]

Basically, it's one more calculation.  

Also, for my own games, it adds a certain uncertainty factor.  You can Dodge, or you can Parry.  And if it doesn't work - well, you'll wonder if you should have gone for the other one.

 

 

[Mankcam]

Yeah Defence is just a bit too fiddly for me, I really prefer the active flavour of rolling for Dodge or Parry, as opposed to RQ2's way of doing it.

 

[jbbourgoin]

I like the idea of removing defense skill when you are surprised or when you sleep.

Styopa, your rule with hexes involved an house rule of movements based on hexes right ? Can you summarized it please ?

[styopa]

10 hours ago, jbbourgoin said:

I like the idea of removing defense skill when you are surprised or when you sleep.

Styopa, your rule with hexes involved an house rule of movements based on hexes right ? Can you summarized it please ?

Sure!

Our system is based on accommodating the RQ3 canonical movement rates, ie Humans 3, Horses 10, etc.  We've also synthesized movement into initiative/first strike.  (We have 2 strike rank values per character: quickness and reach.  Former is DEX-based, latter is SIZ based.  Weapons also have both, but it's easy as they almost always add to 5 - ie something with reach 4 has a quickness of 1; something with quickness 3 has a reach of 2.  REACH is used the first round two combatants close, otherwise quickness.

Here's the excerpt from our houserules page:

Initiative/Movement/Closing:

(These rules are predicated on the use of a hex map; not all combats will need to be played out on a hexmap.  If we don’t use the hex grid, it’s simply init+quickness goes first, with the principle that meeting-combats first-strike goes to the longer weapon.)

Starting on your init, you may move freely 1m/SR to a maximum of 2x your species Move Rate (subject to fatigue limits).

    (Moving backwards each hex costs 2x; Moving Prone each hex costs 2x, Moving from enemy ZOC each hex costs 3x; CUMULATIVE - always can move at least 1/turn.)

If there’s a question about who should move “first” in a SR, NPCs move first.

You and all active, aware opponents (i.e. got to roll init this round) have ‘threat zones’ in the frontal ½ arc:  i.e. the area that can be hit with the equipped melee weapon – on a hex map this would be the 3 adjacent frontal hexes for an opponent with a medium-or-smaller weapon.  Larger weapons may reach more.

If you move into a ‘threatened’ zone but your arc doesn’t reach, that opponent MAY spend action for this round to interrupt & attack.  If you suffer a serious/major injury, you must immediately stop moving. 

If you move so that your ‘threat zone’ touches an enemy, you may attack.

If your and an opponent’s threat zones meet at roughly the same time, highest REACH gets the ‘opportunity’ attack first.  If weapons are same length, higher DEX goes first.  If DEX is also the same, attacks are resolved simultaneously.

If you move in a (more or less) straight line you gain your hexes moved this round/2 (until contact) as a +damage modifier for melee.

[olskool]

I don't use Defense as a regular effect.  Instead, it is often found as a Special Effect such as with the Shimmer Cat or for certain Magic.   I also don't use Dodge as a Basic (ie default) Skill.  In my Game, Dodge is a Special Skill taught by certain sects or cults as it is considered a "more in-depth version" of the dodging that naturally occurs in a fight (and which results in the requirement for an "attack roll" in the first place). Think of this Special Dodge like the "Weirding Way" in Dune (the 2003 version) or the Lord Marshall's "movements" in the Chronicles of Riddick.  Only one player in my campaign had this skill because he was a "Martial Artist."  The Dodge Skill in my game worked like this... The player decides to use Dodge (he can use his Ironhand or Weapon Parry too but that means BOTH of his actions are used in Defense and he will NOT be able to attack that round) and rolls under his Dodge Skill BEFORE the attack occurs.  On a successful roll, he subtracts the roll from his Skill and this difference is then subtracted from the attacker's chance to hit.  It can make a significant difference in combat.  Dodging thrown weapons was one level more difficult than a melee weapon.  The difficulty level is Average (base skill) for projectile weapons at Extreme Range, Difficult (1/2 skill) at Long Range, Formidable (1/4 skill) at Medium Range, and Impossible (1/10th skill) at Short Range.     

Edited May 9, 2017 by olskool

[olskool]

5 hours ago, styopa said:

Sure!

Our system is based on accommodating the RQ3 canonical movement rates, ie Humans 3, Horses 10, etc.  We've also synthesized movement into initiative/first strike.  (We have 2 strike rank values per character: quickness and reach.  Former is DEX-based, latter is SIZ based.  Weapons also have both, but it's easy as they almost always add to 5 - ie something with reach 4 has a quickness of 1; something with quickness 3 has a reach of 2.  REACH is used the first round two combatants close, otherwise quickness.

Here's the excerpt from our houserules page:

Initiative/Movement/Closing:

(These rules are predicated on the use of a hex map; not all combats will need to be played out on a hexmap.  If we don’t use the hex grid, it’s simply init+quickness goes first, with the principle that meeting-combats first-strike goes to the longer weapon.)

Starting on your init, you may move freely 1m/SR to a maximum of 2x your species Move Rate (subject to fatigue limits).

    (Moving backwards each hex costs 2x; Moving Prone each hex costs 2x, Moving from enemy ZOC each hex costs 3x; CUMULATIVE - always can move at least 1/turn.)

If there’s a question about who should move “first” in a SR, NPCs move first.

You and all active, aware opponents (i.e. got to roll init this round) have ‘threat zones’ in the frontal ½ arc:  i.e. the area that can be hit with the equipped melee weapon – on a hex map this would be the 3 adjacent frontal hexes for an opponent with a medium-or-smaller weapon.  Larger weapons may reach more.

If you move into a ‘threatened’ zone but your arc doesn’t reach, that opponent MAY spend action for this round to interrupt & attack.  If you suffer a serious/major injury, you must immediately stop moving. 

If you move so that your ‘threat zone’ touches an enemy, you may attack.

If your and an opponent’s threat zones meet at roughly the same time, highest REACH gets the ‘opportunity’ attack first.  If weapons are same length, higher DEX goes first.  If DEX is also the same, attacks are resolved simultaneously.

If you move in a (more or less) straight line you gain your hexes moved this round/2 (until contact) as a +damage modifier for melee.

 

Great minds think alike.  I use Range for my melee weapons as well (I have a differing "Initiative system" that has a randomizer and counts SRs down to 0).  In my system, melee weapons range in size from 1 meter (listed as Short), to 2m (listed as Medium), to 3m (listed as Long), to 4m (listed as Extreme).  Some weapons, like pikes, are even longer (5m or 6m+).  If you cannot reach your opponent with your weapon, you must expend SRs to "move into range."   My Initiative was based on WILL (which I added to make POW a "derived characteristic") and DEX, while Reach was independent (just like in yours).  I also used hex maps with each hex equaling 1 meter.  My weapons had SRs ranging from 1 to 4 with smaller and faster weapons having a 1 and larger more unwieldy ones having a 4.  Parries and Dodges used up 1 SR to enact, sometimes setting back the attacker and occasionally preventing an attack (due to a lack of SRs).  I even used the exact same "attack zones" (not allowing a person to shield parry an attacker on their right or attack a person to their left rear flank without expending SRs to pivot or move.        

[styopa]

3 hours ago, olskool said:

Great minds think alike.  I use Range for my melee weapons as well (I have a differing "Initiative system" that has a randomizer and counts SRs down to 0).  In my system, melee weapons range in size from 1 meter (listed as Short), to 2m (listed as Medium), to 3m (listed as Long), to 4m (listed as Extreme).  Some weapons, like pikes, are even longer (5m or 6m+).  If you cannot reach your opponent with your weapon, you must expend SRs to "move into range."   My Initiative was based on WILL (which I added to make POW a "derived characteristic") and DEX, while Reach was independent (just like in yours).  I also used hex maps with each hex equaling 1 meter.  My weapons had SRs ranging from 1 to 4 with smaller and faster weapons having a 1 and larger more unwieldy ones having a 4.  Parries and Dodges used up 1 SR to enact, sometimes setting back the attacker and occasionally preventing an attack (due to a lack of SRs).  I even used the exact same "attack zones" (not allowing a person to shield parry an attacker on their right or attack a person to their left rear flank without expending SRs to pivot or move.        

Even more than you already recognized....

We also randomize, and count down.

We use different variable initiative dice, depending on the openness of the conflict space; normally a d10, it might shrink down to a d6 for initiative (making the nimbleness of a player and/or weapon weight much heavier), or a d20 in a flat, open field.

 

[jbbourgoin]

Thank you styopa I'm looking forward to testing that !

[Jusmak]

I bought RQ2 classic and first tried defence, which worked very well for my liking.

Until it become heavily overpowered with high dex character and chaotic feature "obscure presence", shimmer to give defence value 80.

After that came back to RQ3 model. And I do like dodge as a skill, giving a bit more tactical thought.

[Jon Hunter]

18 hours ago, Jusmak said:

I bought RQ2 classic and first tried defence, which worked very well for my liking.

Until it become heavily overpowered with high dex character and chaotic feature "obscure presence", shimmer to give defence value 80.

After that came back to RQ3 model. And I do like dodge as a skill, giving a bit more tactical thought.

Defense works when its an adjustment, when it goes past 30% and is then boosted by shimmer it becomes broke.

Also the separate experience system makes it a faff, but i liked it as an adjustment.

Now id  remove the experience elements and keep it as adjustment, id also use a dodge skill for active dodging.

[styopa]

2 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Defense works when its an adjustment, when it goes past 30% and is then boosted by shimmer it becomes broke.

Also the separate experience system makes it a faff, but i liked it as an adjustment.

Now id  remove the experience elements and keep it as adjustment, id also use a dodge skill for active dodging.

When would you use it (defense), though?  Just generally for everyone, or just in special circumstances where things are more or less arbitrarily harder to hit?

 

[Jon Hunter]

19 hours ago, styopa said:

When would you use it (defense), though?  Just generally for everyone, or just in special circumstances where things are more or less arbitrarily harder to hit?

 

Defense would be permanent modifier to hit. Slower, large, unaware people are easier to hit, smaller fast aware people are not.

To actively doge is where skills experience, and intentional action  come into play.

[styopa]

3 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Defense would be permanent modifier to hit. Slower, large, unaware people are easier to hit, smaller fast aware people are not.

To actively doge is where skills experience, and intentional action  come into play.

(shrug) I guess in that context i've always just used the (roughly) RQ3 mods for SIZ and for unaware targets.  I don't think they're large enough based on SIZ, frankly.  It should be really impossible to miss a SIZ 40 thing, and nearly impossible to even hit a SIZ 0 thing.

[Jon Hunter]

33 minutes ago, styopa said:

(shrug) I guess in that context i've always just used the (roughly) RQ3 mods for SIZ and for unaware targets.  I don't think they're large enough based on SIZ, frankly.  It should be really impossible to miss a SIZ 40 thing, and nearly impossible to even hit a SIZ 0 thing.

Like most simple systems it breaks at the extremes

[olskool]

On 5/9/2017 at 11:10 PM, styopa said:

Even more than you already recognized....

We also randomize, and count down.

We use different variable initiative dice, depending on the openness of the conflict space; normally a d10, it might shrink down to a d6 for initiative (making the nimbleness of a player and/or weapon weight much heavier), or a d20 in a flat, open field.

 

 

I use WILL (the stat I added) and DEX to determine the character's base SR.  Every 5 full points of characteristic equal one SR.  This total is known as your Base Strike Rank.  I then add a 1D6 roll to this total (known as Total SR).  This Total SR was reduced by surprise, wounds, and also by fear/befuddle effects.  Once you have your (modified) Total SR, declaration occurs from highest to lowest scores.  I would give out poker chips to represent SRs and my players would give them back as they declared their actions.  Each SR was equal to 1 second's worth of action in my game.  It was pretty efficient at determining who was doing what and when it happened in a combat round.

[Baelor]

I use both. We have the house rule that,, unless you state otherwise, your Defense subtracts from the first attacker to attack you each round.. But you can state otherwise if you want. Putting your Defense on the obvious Runelord in the group, or whatever.

[Darius West]

On 5/8/2017 at 11:44 PM, jbbourgoin said:

I'm wondering about the the disparition of the defense skill in RQ3 in favor of the dodge skill. What are the reasons of that ? The defense skill seems to me a pretty simple skill to use ( a simple substraction ), and he can be use in addition to parrying.

The dodge seems to be an "active" version of the defense skill. Consequences : you can't dodging and parrying at the same time, you have to choose between them, and you can miss a dodge.

Is the defense skill to powerful ?

I have never played RQ3, and I'm a beginner D.M. with RQ2. To a beginner point of view, defense seem cool and simple, but what's the opinion of yours, the "veterans" ?

11

If you want to get very sticky with the rules, what happens when you have a character who achieves mastery 90%+ in defense?  Can they train others in it?  How much can they charge?  My RQ circle had to confront this problem when Dugg the Axe, who was by then a Son of Pavis achieved Defense Mastery in ST1618.  We decided on the following Price breakdown for training 05-25%=4000L, 30-50%=8000L, 55-75%=16000L, 75%+=Unavailable.  This made it ridiculously expensive, almost as bad as learning General Knowledge, with the added issue that finding someone who was actually a master being next to impossible.

 

[Psullie]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

If you want to get very sticky with the rules, what happens when you have a character who achieves mastery 90%+ in defense?  Can they train others in it?  How much can they charge?  My RQ circle had to confront this problem when Dugg the Axe, who was by then a Son of Pavis achieved Defense Mastery in ST1618.  We decided on the following Price breakdown for training 05-25%=4000L, 30-50%=8000L, 55-75%=16000L, 75%+=Unavailable.  This made it ridiculously expensive, almost as bad as learning General Knowledge, with the added issue that finding someone who was actually a master being next to impossible.

 

IIRC Defence cannot be taught, the only way to improve is by INT% experience checks or adjusting the relevant Characteristic. 

[Jason D]

The Defense characteristic is not used in RQG.  

[Darius West]

On 6/24/2017 at 0:20 AM, Psullie said:

IIRC Defence cannot be taught, the only way to improve is by INT% experience checks or adjusting the relevant Characteristic. 

Yes, as far as the rules go that is correct, but IRL that is nonsense.  For example, Aikido.  It takes a minimum of 10 years to get any good at it, but it is a martial art that is all about dodging, even multiple opponents at the same time.  I mean, if you want to get really picky about this, consider the General Knowledge rules in Cults of Prax, which tell us that the skill can't be learned through skill ups, only through being taught... so how did anyone ever get the skill in the first place?  Gods gave it to them?  Who taught the gods etc. etc. until the beginnings of time itself ? Sometimes the written rules are a poor reflection of reality.  I personally have no problem with people learning defense, but they should pay through the nose for it.