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Tcneseis

Waertagi notes

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I'm trying not to repeat what has been published.
 
The Waertagi used pagan literature whenever they found it and were able to use others' myths according to the places they visited. They certainly cared about certain local traditions. Wherever they survive, their religion looks like some kind of simple ancestor cult mixed with the worship of local water spirits, which the Brithini of the City of Brass do not want to hear about, yet which contributed to keep the Waertagi in power over the oceans in the Dawn Age. They hate Dormal as much as they hate the memory of the God Learners. A few key points of Waertagi beliefs and ideology (in addition to what is known of Waertagi culture) include:
 
  • The gods don't want to be manipulated. They empower those who worship them with the proper rites, and do so reliably. Their genealogies spread far and wide in places that were unaware of each other until the God Learners came, and in the Third Age Waertagi ethics of secrecy still hold true.
  • They are especially good at divination and necromancy and also all kinds of repair magics due to their Dragon-slaying ancestry.
  • The Waertagi do not doubt or question Malkionism although their understanding of Malkion is simple and agrees well with polytheism. Malkionism is in fact sorcery, is not inherently moral, and Dormal was not the type of Malkioni the Waertagi get along with because former human attempts to navigate have proven his cult is dangerous. The origin of this Sea-opening magic is unknown.
  • New Hrestoli Idealism is evil and despicable.
  • The Church of the Ship and City is a spin-off effect of Waertagi traditions in a place inhabited by humans.
  • The goal of trade is to get rich. Good opportunities are desirable. Piracy is an option. Modern naval powers are of no consequence.
  • History books are prized.
 

 

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Interesting approach.

45 minutes ago, Tcneseleis said:
I'm trying not to repeat what has been published.

I guess that you have access to the Guide, Revealed Mythologies, and possibly Missing Lands (for the obscure and likely post-canonical "Aftal the Waertagi" fragment)?

47 minutes ago, Tcneseleis said:
The Waertagi used pagan literature whenever they found it and were able to use others' myths according to the places they visited.

Pagan literature? The only place where they might have come into contact with pagan literature would likely have been Nochet, perhaps also Kralorela, Fonrit or Melib.

Most of their trading contacts would have been illiterate. The Janubian/Poralistor river tribe might have been in contact with Pelandan writings, but cut off from their Sea Dragons, I don't think they would have remained acceptable to their dragon-city dwelling cousins.

They would have exchanged stories with the pagans, though, and probably have participated in rites they would have considered friendly.

47 minutes ago, Tcneseleis said:
They certainly cared about certain local traditions. Wherever they survive, their religion looks like some kind of simple ancestor cult mixed with the worship of local water spirits, which the Brithini of the City of Brass do not want to hear about, yet which contributed to keep the Waertagi in power over the oceans in the Dawn Age.

Their domination of the oceans west of Teleos was maintained mainly by their firm alliance with the sea gods of the western Oceans, apparently including an alliance with a Cetoi tribe of the Triolini (orca-folk) that fought alongside them in the Battle of Tanian's Victory and never seen or heard of again afterwards.

I have seen speculations that Waertag could have been a reincarnation or aspect of the sorcerer son of Phargon and Mirintha. While the guide states that his mother was a Ludoch mermaid, I wonder where Malkion would have found one of these - his own mother was a niiad, and I find it more likely that Waertag's mother would have been one, too. The Waertagi are one of the six original tribes of Danmalastan, which they soon left for Sramak's River, before even Neliom invaded their lands.

The six original tribes of Danmalastan may have predated the birth of Umath - the Malkion son of Aerlit might have been a later incarnation than Malkion father of Waertag, Enroval and the other four founders.

Their vessels rely on currents and waves for rapid propulsion. In the Aftal story, they don't row their mundane boats, but paddle them.

1 hour ago, Tcneseleis said:
They hate Dormal as much as they hate the memory of the God Learners.

Dormal stole their secrets, or so they claim. Which might be somewhat true - one key to Dormal's success was encoded in ancient tiles on the floor of the workshop of his collaborator Galaaz, and may have been left from the time when Nochet had a drydock.

They don't feel too kindly towards Zzabur, either, I suppose.

1 hour ago, Tcneseleis said:
A few key points of Waertagi beliefs and ideology (in addition to what is known of Waertagi culture) include:
 
  • The gods don't want to be manipulated. They empower those who worship them with the proper rites, and do so reliably. Their genealogies spread far and wide in places that were unaware of each other until the God Learners came, and in the Third Age Waertagi ethics of secrecy still hold true.
  • They are especially good at divination and necromancy and also all kinds of repair magics due to their Dragon-slaying ancestry.
  • The Waertagi do not doubt or question Malkionism although their understanding of Malkion is simple and agrees well with polytheism. Malkionism is in fact sorcery, is not inherently moral, and Dormal was not the type of Malkioni the Waertagi get along with because former human attempts to navigate have proven his cult is dangerous. The origin of this Sea-opening magic is unknown.
  • New Hrestoli Idealism is evil and despicable.
  • The Church of the Ship and City is a spin-off effect of Waertagi traditions in a place inhabited by humans.
  • The goal of trade is to get rich. Good opportunities are desirable. Piracy is an option. Modern naval powers are of no consequence.
  • History books are prized.

I disagree on a number of points here.

Keeping the various peoples across the seas secret from one another isn't a viable strategy any more. It would take memory removal magic to make this viable again. Maybe later in the Hero Wars.

The rest of that bullet point reads like an Arkati mission statement. Arkat once traveled from Brithos to Arolanit on a Waertagi ship. He didn't use their aid for his invasion of Kethaela, though.

Dormal wasn't really a Malkioni. His teacher and one of his companions were. He doesn't seem to have grown up in House Delaineo, despite being the son of Valira. He might have been given anonymously into fosterage to local Diroti ship-wrights.

Do they really care about the Loskalmi ways, other than that they dare to sail the open seas using the Dormal rites?

Malkioni groups aren't called "church" any more. I guess it would the Cult of the Ship and City nowadays among the stranded Waertagi and their Akemite imitators in Sog City, or perhaps the School of the Ship and City. The stranded Waertagi - both in Sog and on the Edrenlin isles, and (if they still exist) possibly the anchored city ships of Aftal's story, aren't necessarily the same as those Waertagi that return from the Underworld.

"The goal of trade is to get rich." Is that so? Or is trading their way to ensure that they receive those things from the drylands that they cannot produce on their floating cities?

What kind of riches would the Waertagi amass? Gold is fairly useless to them, but is an excellent exchange medium when trading with the drylanders. Sea Metal would be valued, bronze would be an inferior substitute, iron might be desirable, provided it doesn't interfere with their control over the dragons.

Deri slaves would be in demand for both their telepathic and their smithing abilities. Human slaves as servants or sacrifices to some of the more unsavory sea gods.

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I guess that you have access to the Guide, Revealed Mythologies, and possibly Missing Lands (for the obscure and likely post-canonical "Aftal the Waertagi" fragment)?

Yes. This story ignores the mechanics of the Closing. But it describes the Waertagi quite well.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Pagan literature? The only place where they might have come into contact with pagan literature would likely have been Nochet, perhaps also Kralorela, Fonrit or Melib.

Most of their trading contacts would have been illiterate. The Janubian/Poralistor river tribe might have been in contact with Pelandan writings, but cut off from their Sea Dragons, I don't think they would have remained acceptable to their dragon-city dwelling cousins.

They would have exchanged stories with the pagans, though, and probably have participated in rites they would have considered friendly.

Exchanged stories, and written them down. Collected knowledge. Are the Waertagi related to Janubian river tribes who don't have the fins and gills...?

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

The six original tribes of Danmalastan may have predated the birth of Umath - the Malkion son of Aerlit might have been a later incarnation than Malkion father of Waertag, Enroval and the other four founders.

Their vessels rely on currents and waves for rapid propulsion. In the Aftal story, they don't row their mundane boats, but paddle them.

Waertag, Umath, all follow from Malkion's successive incarnations in the sequence of the Five Actions. That Malkion had a lot of wives, and how Waertag was born, are stories which don't make sense in the former Zzaburi frame.

I know the story of Aftal takes place during the Opening, although these Waertagi don't need magic to do the crossing to the nearest land.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

They don't feel too kindly towards Zzabur, either, I suppose.

It is unlikely they bless him for the Closing.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Keeping the various peoples across the seas secret from one another isn't a viable strategy any more. It would take memory removal magic to make this viable again. Maybe later in the Hero Wars.

Yes, good point. Thank you.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

The rest of that bullet point reads like an Arkati mission statement. Arkat once traveled from Brithos to Arolanit on a Waertagi ship. He didn't use their aid for his invasion of Kethaela, though.

Yes, I think so. There is a surprising analogy with Arkati control of the Hero Planes. However they are mostly independent, as far as I know.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dormal wasn't really a Malkioni. His teacher and one of his companions were. He doesn't seem to have grown up in House Delaineo, despite being the son of Valira. He might have been given anonymously into fosterage to local Diroti ship-wrights.

No he wasn't at first, but is it really an error to call him so? Dormal was a human who associated with different people and deities and performed holy actions which Malkion himself had or would have done when he went among pagans.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Do they really care about the Loskalmi ways, other than that they dare to sail the open seas using the Dormal rites?

I agree the doctrine may be irrelevant.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

"The goal of trade is to get rich." Is that so? Or is trading their way to ensure that they receive those things from the drylands that they cannot produce on their floating cities?

What kind of riches would the Waertagi amass? Gold is fairly useless to them, but is an excellent exchange medium when trading with the drylanders. Sea Metal would be valued, bronze would be an inferior substitute, iron might be desirable, provided it doesn't interfere with their control over the dragons.

Deri slaves would be in demand for both their telepathic and their smithing abilities. Human slaves as servants or sacrifices to some of the more unsavory sea gods.

Not all trading partners rank the same. I think the other Malkioni were primary suppliers of important resources in the Dawn Age. The Aftal story suggests they can survive quite a long time with a metal supply, but I suspect they hoarded much more than needed in daily jobs. Lots of gold, gems, etc. too.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dormal stole their secrets, or so they claim. Which might be somewhat true - one key to Dormal's success was encoded in ancient tiles on the floor of the workshop of his collaborator Galaaz, and may have been left from the time when Nochet had a drydock.

It could be magic stolen from the Waertagi but it was not enough to open the seas.

 

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On ‎05‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 11:14 PM, Tcneseleis said:
On ‎05‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 5:30 PM, Joerg said:

The six original tribes of Danmalastan may have predated the birth of Umath - the Malkion son of Aerlit might have been a later incarnation than Malkion father of Waertag, Enroval and the other four founders.

Their vessels rely on currents and waves for rapid propulsion. In the Aftal story, they don't row their mundane boats, but paddle them.

Waertag, Umath, all follow from Malkion's successive incarnations in the sequence of the Five Actions. That Malkion had a lot of wives, and how Waertag was born, are stories which don't make sense in the former Zzaburi frame.

I may have been a little fast here, since Waertag must be born during the Fourth Action. On the other hand, it is unthinkable that Umath was seriously "born" from the marriage of Sky and Earth, and did physically "lift" the Sky above the Earth, but he was just Air, so he should be of the Second Action (True Being) or Third Action (as a combination of Earth and Sky).

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

I may have been a little fast here, since Waertag must be born during the Fourth Action. On the other hand, it is unthinkable that Umath was seriously "born" from the marriage of Sky and Earth, and did physically "lift" the Sky above the Earth, but he was just Air, so he should be of the Second Action (True Being) or Third Action (as a combination of Earth and Sky).

In my Glorantha, Umath was born from the union of Earth and Sky and did lift the Shy from the Earth. My Glorantha is very mythical in nature and the myths are, more often than not, actual representations of what happened, rather than analogies.

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5 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

I may have been a little fast here, since Waertag must be born during the Fourth Action. On the other hand, it is unthinkable that Umath was seriously "born" from the marriage of Sky and Earth, and did physically "lift" the Sky above the Earth, but he was just Air, so he should be of the Second Action (True Being) or Third Action (as a combination of Earth and Sky).

The Brithini themselves report the union (not marriage) of Earth and Sky, and how the new element filled the space between its parents - pushing up the Sky Dome, and pushing down the earth cube into the seas so that its top surface became about level with the seas, and the first seas like Togaro and Sshorg or Neliom could enter the surface.

The Brithini are explicit about the new element's mixed origin, as is shown in the Dawn Age (pre-God Learner) document on rune metals.

IMO the answer lies in the cyclical, non-sequential nature of Godtime. Waertag is a deity, and can be around and be reborn. as a child of the son of Aerlit and Warera and a niiad. (I still don't buy the ludoch mother - rather a niiad who shares the same ancestry as Ludocha, possibly a niiad child of Ludocha before her interaction with Diendimos). And that merfolk ancestry can be distributed by the elder..

Malkion Aerlitsson logically was born after the birth of Umath, since Aerlit is a (probably second or third generation) descendant of Umath. He is, however, only one of several manifestations of Malkion, all of whom share traits that Malkion Aerlitsson brought into the Malkion whole.

 

There is also the possibility of interwoven sequences - one mythic sequence may very well run a sequence that jumps around in different ages. The sages are divided whether this indicates a composite myth, echoes of earlier events in later myths, or whether such perceived time travel is a common occurrence.

 

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4 hours ago, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha, Umath was born from the union of Earth and Sky and did lift the Shy from the Earth. My Glorantha is very mythical in nature and the myths are, more often than not, actual representations of what happened, rather than analogies.

I am sure that dismissing myths as explanations for natural forces is canonical Glorantha as well, from the sorcerous side. Merfolk, other creatures, magic, the God Plane, exist as well, but some of those do not fit neatly with the way the Malkioni work their magic, the way they are seen by non-Malkioni. Only their magic is worthy of interest because the other ways of doing magic are a loss of time and energy sacrificing to gods or worshipping spirits who are lesser magical beings dating back to God Time events, who sort of hijacked the powers of Logic to satisfy their own lust. Although it's impossible to reconcile both views, I'm sure they are both found in Glorantha.

 

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3 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

Merfolk, other creatures, magic, the God Plane, exist as well, but some of those do not fit neatly with the way the Malkioni work their magic, the way they are seen by non-Malkioni.

Personally, I disagree here.

The merfolk are an example of how the Water Rune and the Man Rune were combined. (As personified by the GL as Triolina and Grandfather Mortal, other names would obviously be used as well. Their offspring is recorded as Phargon)

It's in much the same way as the Water Rune (Triolina) mixed with the Plant Rune (Flamal), Beast Rune (Hykim) and the Spirit Rune (Interestingly, commonly seen as Heler) to produce the sea plants (Murthdrya), the sea beasts (Tholaina) and sea spirits (Veredth/King Undine)

Other, similar combinations can be seen with other elements. Darkness (Dame Darkness) mixes with Plant, Man, and Beast to produce Mee Vorala, Kyger Litor, and Sokazub (The darkness family tree in Uz Lore even comes from Zzabur's Blue Book). Only the spirits of darkness are separate, coming from the Mother of Space and Father of Demon's child Dehore.

The Earth Rune (as Ernalda) mixes with Plant and Beast runes to create Aldrya and Eiritha. Likewise the Storm Rune and Beast Runes combine as Umath and Mikyh to create Storm Bull. (And I'd be willing to bet Kal, the mother of Umbrol/Kolat is another incarnation of the Spirit Rune)

 

Whether you believe these to be deities (the theistic view mentioned in the guide) or impersonal forces (humanist), the Malkioni can use this knowledge to manipulate these beings. For example the Debaldan School of Sorcerer could combine the Water and Spirit runes together, recreating the combination in the 3rd Action/Golden Age and creating a water elemental. Likewise, you can use the shared Man rune of a human and troll (or other elder race) to allow them to conceive a viable child. (While few Malkioni would be likely to use such a spell, Pavis' "Book of the Original Man" contains it.)

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33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Brithini themselves report the union (not marriage) of Earth and Sky, and how the new element filled the space between its parents - pushing up the Sky Dome, and pushing down the earth cube into the seas so that its top surface became about level with the seas, and the first seas like Togaro and Sshorg or Neliom could enter the surface.

The Brithini are explicit about the new element's mixed origin, as is shown in the Dawn Age (pre-God Learner) document on rune metals.

Any chance this refers to what RM describes as the "Rebellion of the Gods"?

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

IMO the answer lies in the cyclical, non-sequential nature of Godtime. Waertag is a deity, and can be around and be reborn. as a child of the son of Aerlit and Warera and a niiad. (I still don't buy the ludoch mother - rather a niiad who shares the same ancestry as Ludocha, possibly a niiad child of Ludocha before her interaction with Diendimos). And that merfolk ancestry can be distributed by the elder..

The official position appears in a footnote about the Origin of People in RM p. 4. Why do you think a niiad is better than a ludoch mermaid?

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Malkion Aerlitsson logically was born after the birth of Umath, since Aerlit is a (probably second or third generation) descendant of Umath. He is, however, only one of several manifestations of Malkion, all of whom share traits that Malkion Aerlitsson brought into the Malkion whole.

Are there any other known? 

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is also the possibility of interwoven sequences - one mythic sequence may very well run a sequence that jumps around in different ages. The sages are divided whether this indicates a composite myth, echoes of earlier events in later myths, or whether such perceived time travel is a common occurrence.

This is also noticeable in the spatial dimension. Because there is room for local variations, there should be some kind of magical interaction resulting into a reconfiguration of the myths, and, sometimes, quite naturally they repeat themselves, across ages, and through space too. Misunderstanding this probably contributed to the errors made by the God Learners.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Personally, I disagree here.

The merfolk are an example of how the Water Rune and the Man Rune were combined. (As personified by the GL as Triolina and Grandfather Mortal, other names would obviously be used as well. Their offspring is recorded as Phargon)

It's in much the same way as the Water Rune (Triolina) mixed with the Plant Rune (Flamal), Beast Rune (Hykim) and the Spirit Rune (Interestingly, commonly seen as Heler) to produce the sea plants (Murthdrya), the sea beasts (Tholaina) and sea spirits (Veredth/King Undine)

Other, similar combinations can be seen with other elements. Darkness (Dame Darkness) mixes with Plant, Man, and Beast to produce Mee Vorala, Kyger Litor, and Sokazub (The darkness family tree in Uz Lore even comes from Zzabur's Blue Book). Only the spirits of darkness are separate, coming from the Mother of Space and Father of Demon's child Dehore.

The Earth Rune (as Ernalda) mixes with Plant and Beast runes to create Aldrya and Eiritha. Likewise the Storm Rune and Beast Runes combine as Umath and Mikyh to create Storm Bull. (And I'd be willing to bet Kal, the mother of Umbrol/Kolat is another incarnation of the Spirit Rune)

I agree with all this and don't understand what you disagree with. It matters how differently theism and sorcery work. For instance, sorcerers don't have to dress in a sheep-skin (that is just an example) in order to perform rain (Heler's) magic. Perhaps in Ralios they use symbols that look like Heler's attributes, but that's probably not mandatory. They don't need to look at Orlanthi rituals in order to figure out the spells they need. Monotheism forbids the worship of other gods, and dismisses them as useless or even dangerous.

 

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5 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

Any chance this refers to what RM describes as the "Rebellion of the Gods"?

Rebellion of the Gods is a Brithini term for the end of the Green Age.

I do wonder who or what this was to be a rebellion against? The will of Zzabur?

The Brithini exposure to gods uses the same names we find for the ancient gods of Ralios rather than the Theyalan/post-Argentium Thri'ile Dara Happan mash-up that we know from Cults of Prax. The God Learners did produce a genealogy of gods that re-united the Ralian gods with the expanded Theyalan gods world and had e.g. Ehilm as a son of Yelm, and Yamsur somewhere in the vicinity.

The sequence of the emergence of the elements was a logical act of creation, only the form of the birth of Storm was irregular. Generally, always one element was formed inside the others - see for instance the Three Curious Spirits myth tying Zorak Zoran, Argan Argar and Xiola Umbar to Aether in its womb. (And note the apparent temporal discontinuity of Argan Argar basically being unborn before Xentha enters the (yet unborn) upper world sky.)

The myths about earlier periods are vague, but the Umath cycle as well as the myth snippet of Yelm facing three opponents before becoming Emperor of the World indicate that there was struggle and strife and even Predark Chaos prior to the Golden Age of Yelm's rule. Entekosiad has a myth about how Brightface the Rebel (Yelm) took rightful rulership away from the White Queen.

5 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

The official position appears in a footnote about the Origin of People in RM p. 4. Why do you think a niiad is better than a ludoch mermaid?

Niiads don't require air to breathe, the Ludoch offspring of Diendimos do. Why should them mating with the offspring of air-breathing humans produce water-breathing offspring?

5 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

Are there any other known? 

There is one Malkion (at least) for each of the Actions, including the Creator, the Founder, the Sacrifice. They often have another name, too, like e.g. Kiona.

5 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

This is also noticeable in the spatial dimension. Because there is room for local variations, there should be some kind of magical interaction resulting into a reconfiguration of the myths, and, sometimes, quite naturally they repeat themselves, across ages, and through space too. Misunderstanding this probably contributed to the errors made by the God Learners.

I think that the local variations may also result from an overlay of multiple stories into one tradition/myth. This overlay may be necessary to access the secrets associated with the myth for one group of worshippers/heroquesters, while another group will approach the same myth (and possibly the same main participants of the myth) through a different overlay, with other secrets as subject and reward. All can be traced to the runepower associated with the main participants if you are doing a more abstract, Brithini- or Malkioni-style quest in the symbolic space of sorcery or its Otherworld representation, the First World.

You can push further towards the runes. This is theist mysticism where you become one with your deity on a level only slightly removed from the Ultimate, becoming one with the rune. In a way, this is the way the contemporaries of Zzabur went to become the runic deities.

 

5 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

I agree with all this and don't understand what you disagree with. It matters how differently theism and sorcery work. For instance, sorcerers don't have to dress in a sheep-skin (that is just an example) in order to perform rain (Heler's) magic. Perhaps in Ralios they use symbols that look like Heler's attributes, but that's probably not mandatory. They don't need to look at Orlanthi rituals in order to figure out the spells they need. Monotheism forbids the worship of other gods, and dismisses them as useless or even dangerous.

Strangely, this definition of Monotheism developed only within History. If you look at the description of Ylream, Hrestol's snake-legged half brother and first of the serpent kings, you will find the Seshnegi happily combining theistic worship and Malkioni logic-based wizardry and philosophy. Plenty other places have similar combinations. Brithos itself has a land goddess, and the farmer caste as the offspring of Britha and Malkion Aerlitsson. The Waertagi aren't an exeption to the way Malkionism deals with deities, they are the norm. The more extreme forms of monotheism or atheism are the results of genocidal purges. Zzabur pruned the Brithini of any dissidents by sending them off to join the impure colonies on the Genertelan mainlands over and over again, retaining only a hard core of the most determined or the most pliable followers. The Silver Empire of Seshnela in the Dawn Age was the first attempt at monotheism rather than atheism, the previous praxis was a mixed philosophy that acknowledge theist forms of magic alongside the Malkioni atheist philosophy that acknowledged ancestral Malkion as an emanation of the Creator.

To quote the Daka Fal cult from Cults of Prax:

Quote

Other distant lands (such as Seshneg in the Dawn Ages) developed this form of worship until they made their ancestors surpass the mighty gods in power, or else reduced the immortals into mere superhuman heroes or multi-national ancestors.

The Malkioni may not have acknowledged a form of afterlife outside of the concept of Solace (the gift of Malkion the Sacrifice to those of his followers who did not adhere to Zzabur's attempts to impose First World rules on a changing cosmos) and Joy (the discovery of Hrestol, beyond Solace), but they carried on the lore and philosophy of their ancestors, an immortality of memes and ideas.

Just like the Waertagi, who have a second branch of ancestors - the sea deities - that they treat the same way they treat devolution's Malkion. I suspect that they also revere Aerlit and Warera as part of their ancestry.

 

The God Learners produced the Abiding Book religion, which soon divided into a strict monotheist creed by dropping some aspects of the entire document, and a quite different philosophy that coopted the theist cults for their philosophy, exploiting these cults while adopting some of their tenets. If you look at the allies of Halwal, you find all manner of creeds that are different from both New Idealist Hrestolism and Rokarism, and a lot closer the Waertagi approach (most of whom, except for the Sog City population, weren't around when and where Halwal was active).

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6 hours ago, Joerg said:
14 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

Any chance this refers to what RM describes as the "Rebellion of the Gods"?

Rebellion of the Gods is a Brithini term for the end of the Green Age.

Not a big problem but I thought it started in the Third Action Era (early Golden Age) when the Burtae deities were created, and started to make trouble.

Quote

I do wonder who or what this was to be a rebellion against? The will of Zzabur?

Identification to the Runes is the reason given in RM. By Identification to the runes, the gods, the True Beings which resulted from the Third Action Era, actually turned against each other, or generally competed for spheres of power.

Quote

The Brithini exposure to gods uses the same names we find for the ancient gods of Ralios rather than the Theyalan/post-Argentium Thri'ile Dara Happan mash-up that we know from Cults of Prax. The God Learners did produce a genealogy of gods that re-united the Ralian gods with the expanded Theyalan gods world and had e.g. Ehilm as a son of Yelm, and Yamsur somewhere in the vicinity.

A useful reminder.

Quote

The sequence of the emergence of the elements was a logical act of creation, only the form of the birth of Storm was irregular. Generally, always one element was formed inside the others - see for instance the Three Curious Spirits myth tying Zorak Zoran, Argan Argar and Xiola Umbar to Aether in its womb. (And note the apparent temporal discontinuity of Argan Argar basically being unborn before Xentha enters the (yet unborn) upper world sky.)

I think we must be careful with this notion because I do not think Sequence is wrong when it tends to follow a logical direction, although it may happen. Sequence involves Causality, a concept everyone in Glorantha probably understands and uses. Xentha was the darkness spirit who led the escape into Hurtplace. So usually, in most cases, I think it makes sense.

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The official position appears in a footnote about the Origin of People in RM p. 4. Why do you think a niiad is better than a ludoch mermaid?

Niiads don't require air to breathe, the Ludoch offspring of Diendimos do. Why should them mating with the offspring of air-breathing humans produce water-breathing offspring?

Indeed, a very good point.

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Are there any other known? 

There is one Malkion (at least) for each of the Actions, including the Creator, the Founder, the Sacrifice. They often have another name, too, like e.g. Kiona.

I actually meant other known Malkion the Founder stories, but I suspect there are none.

 

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You can push further towards the runes. This is theist mysticism where you become one with your deity on a level only slightly removed from the Ultimate, becoming one with the rune. In a way, this is the way the contemporaries of Zzabur went to become the runic deities.

I thought it was impossible, actually, and mysticism would reject runic identities as illusions and traps on the way to enlightenment.

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13 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

I agree with all this and don't understand what you disagree with. It matters how differently theism and sorcery work. For instance, sorcerers don't have to dress in a sheep-skin (that is just an example) in order to perform rain (Heler's) magic. Perhaps in Ralios they use symbols that look like Heler's attributes, but that's probably not mandatory. They don't need to look at Orlanthi rituals in order to figure out the spells they need. Monotheism forbids the worship of other gods, and dismisses them as useless or even dangerous.

Strangely, this definition of Monotheism developed only within History. If you look at the description of Ylream, Hrestol's snake-legged half brother and first of the serpent kings, you will find the Seshnegi happily combining theistic worship and Malkioni logic-based wizardry and philosophy. Plenty other places have similar combinations. Brithos itself has a land goddess, and the farmer caste as the offspring of Britha and Malkion Aerlitsson. The Waertagi aren't an exeption to the way Malkionism deals with deities, they are the norm. The more extreme forms of monotheism or atheism are the results of genocidal purges. Zzabur pruned the Brithini of any dissidents by sending them off to join the impure colonies on the Genertelan mainlands over and over again, retaining only a hard core of the most determined or the most pliable followers. The Silver Empire of Seshnela in the Dawn Age was the first attempt at monotheism rather than atheism, the previous praxis was a mixed philosophy that acknowledge theist forms of magic alongside the Malkioni atheist philosophy that acknowledged ancestral Malkion as an emanation of the Creator.

I had forgotten all of this.

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Just like the Waertagi, who have a second branch of ancestors - the sea deities - that they treat the same way they treat devolution's Malkion. I suspect that they also revere Aerlit and Warera as part of their ancestry.

The Waertagi sacrifice to the sea gods, indeed. They probably speak with Malkion too but he does not take sacrifices.

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The God Learners produced the Abiding Book religion, which soon divided into a strict monotheist creed by dropping some aspects of the entire document, and a quite different philosophy that coopted the theist cults for their philosophy, exploiting these cults while adopting some of their tenets. If you look at the allies of Halwal, you find all manner of creeds that are different from both New Idealist Hrestolism and Rokarism, and a lot closer the Waertagi approach (most of whom, except for the Sog City population, weren't around when and where Halwal was active).

The Sharp Abiding Book and maybe the School(s) of Mythical Synthesis. Who is Halwal? Are you referring to the numerous heresies born in the Second Age?

 

Edited by Tcneseleis

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14 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

I agree with all this and don't understand what you disagree with. It matters how differently theism and sorcery work. For instance, sorcerers don't have to dress in a sheep-skin (that is just an example) in order to perform rain (Heler's) magic. Perhaps in Ralios they use symbols that look like Heler's attributes, but that's probably not mandatory. They don't need to look at Orlanthi rituals in order to figure out the spells they need. Monotheism forbids the worship of other gods, and dismisses them as useless or even dangerous.

 

I was interpreting your comment as that Merfolk were separate and other compared to Malkioni sorcery, rather than something explained by them. Sorry for misunderstanding.

 

 

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On ‎11‎.‎06‎.‎2017 at 9:37 PM, Tcneseleis said:

I actually meant other known Malkion the Founder stories, but I suspect there are none.

There are two stories of Malkion as father - once for the six tribes of Danmalastan, once for the four plus one castes of the Brithini/Malkioni.

On ‎11‎.‎06‎.‎2017 at 9:37 PM, Tcneseleis said:

I thought it was impossible, actually, and mysticism would reject runic identities as illusions and traps on the way to enlightenment.

Mysticism is identification with the Ultimate, but it is possible to reject everything but the runic identity and approach the Ultimate through that way.

As far as I understand it, very few mystics manage to reach the Ultimate. Most keep struggling getting there.

On ‎11‎.‎06‎.‎2017 at 9:37 PM, Tcneseleis said:

The Sharp Abiding Book and maybe the School(s) of Mythical Synthesis. Who is Halwal? Are you referring to the numerous heresies born in the Second Age?

Halwal is the Malkioni wizard who was behind most of the uprisings against the God Learners. The Guide tells the story of his final confrontation with Yomili, the Pithdaran wizard who was the staunch defender of Makanism, the orthodox Rightness philosophy of Imperial Seshnela. See p.414, but also mentions in the Ralios and Fronela chapters.

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6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Halwal is the Malkioni wizard who was behind most of the uprisings against the God Learners. The Guide tells the story of his final confrontation with Yomili, the Pithdaran wizard who was the staunch defender of Makanism, the orthodox Rightness philosophy of Imperial Seshnela. See p.414, but also mentions in the Ralios and Fronela chapters.

Halwal was a God Learner.  He turned against the other God Learners because they refused to make him Imperial High Sorceror after the disappearance of Argalis.  It's not clear whether he followed Makan or Malkioneran but Sour Grapes more than anything else explains his actions.  

Although Yomili worshipped Makan, he actually embraced Hrestolism (Middle Sea Empire p29).  I don't think it's true to say that he was a staunch defender of the orthodox Rightness philosophy because in the days of the sorceror's war, orthodoxy was something of a bad joke.  Yomili did go back to the good old days (MSE p30 says that his New Church of the Book was old style Makanism with very very strong Hrestoli emphasis and that most bishops and wizards schools were members).  The language is dated but its clear to me that he was an religious innovator under the guise of returning to one's roots.  

In any event, calling someone a God Learner at this point in time is doubly confusing because the actual God Learners collective were being purged left right and centre - Yomili for example overthrew King Tualon who had the support of the God Learners collective (MSE p29)

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Halwal supported Hrestolism, too - he is included in the list of revered Ascended Masters along with the Fronelan hero Tryensaval, and enjoyed the support of the Loskalmi Irensavalists in his efforts to purify Malkionism from without the established hierarchy after failing to get a position inside it to reform it. His stance appears to have been grounded in mystic insights carried over into the logical philosophies of Malkionism (supporting both Irensavalism and Arkatism), in the tradition of personal revelations like those of Malkion the Sacrifice, Hrestol, or Talor.

He was an advisor for the order of Spiritual Purity, though not necessarily a member of that organisation.

Halwal revived or resurrected several branches of Malkionism that had been suppressed or forbidden by the God Learner collective. Yomili inherited their resistance against these variant philosophies that differed from his form of Hrestolism and Makanism. or he simply was firmly entrenched against any form of mystical insights within his philosophies.

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9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Halwal supported Hrestolism, too - he is included in the list of revered Ascended Masters along with the Fronelan hero Tryensaval, and enjoyed the support of the Loskalmi Irensavalists in his efforts to purify Malkionism from without the established hierarchy after failing to get a position inside it to reform it.

It's not certain that Halwal supported Hrestolism.  Being worshipped as an ascended master is only shows what the Hrestoli think about him after death.  What he though about them while he was alive is a different thing entirely (for example, Haile Selasse and the Rastafarians)

There is nothing to indicate that he was trying to purify Malkionism from without or even that he was originally trying to reform it from within.  If that were really the case, why was he fighting against Yomili who is describing as reforming the system from within?

 

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

His stance appears to have been grounded in mystic insights carried over into the logical philosophies of Malkionism (supporting both Irensavalism and Arkatism), in the tradition of personal revelations like those of Malkion the Sacrifice, Hrestol, or Talor.

His stance appears to be no such thing because we are not told what his stance is.  Your statement should be better expressed as "I believe that he was guided by mystical insights gained through personal revelation".  More importantly if what you suggest is true, why was he fighting against Yomili who was favouring Hrestolism and opposed to the self-same corrupt God Learners who had blocked his (Halwal) appointment?

As an aside, Malkion the Sacrifice does not appear in the Guide which might mean that his existence is no longer canonical.

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

He was an advisor for the order of Spiritual Purity, though not necessarily a member of that organisation.

Given the order is described in the Guide as "extremist", I doubt the order was in the habit of accepting advice from anybody who didn't share their beliefs.  It's a point in your favour that he supported Hrestolism (which is the usual Malkioni method of mysticism) but the description of extremism means they didn't play well with others.  We also have to consider that possibility that the anger at being denied the position of Imperial High Sorcerpr may mean that Halwal had recanted his previous philosophy and become an irrational - cf his statement about the Great Mystery in the Guide p680).

 

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Halwal revived or resurrected several branches of Malkionism that had been suppressed or forbidden by the God Learner collective.

Halwal aided them rather than revived or resurrected them  The Hrestoli (in the leadership of the Perfecti) were powerful enough to seize control of Frontem long before Halwal went among them to cause rebellion.  The Arkati didn't need help from Halwal in being revived.  What they did need from him - the one True Arkat - he couldn't provide.

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Yomili inherited their resistance against these variant philosophies that differed from his form of Hrestolism and Makanism. or he simply was firmly entrenched against any form of mystical insights within his philosophies.

But this suggests that Yomili was a fanatic which isn't what the sources describe.  Halwal is the one who is involved with extremists, not Yomili.

 

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3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It's not certain that Halwal supported Hrestolism.  Being worshipped as an ascended master is only shows what the Hrestoli think about him after death.  What he though about them while he was alive is a different thing entirely (for example, Haile Selasse and the Rastafarians)

While I cannot read Halwal's thoughts, I point to him being quoted in the introduction to the God Learner maps of Gloranthan myth in the Guide.

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There is nothing to indicate that he was trying to purify Malkionism from without or even that he was originally trying to reform it from within.  If that were really the case, why was he fighting against Yomili who is describing as reforming the system from within?

Given the attention showered on Martin Luther this year in Germany, I think that Halwal was n a similar position as Luther. He wanted to correct mainstream Malkionism from within, but got marginalized, then built up a support structure of his own, allying with other folk opposing the imposed authority on all things for their own reasons.

Why was he fighting Yomili? Probably because he thought he knew that Yomili's position was still too deeply grounded in the God Learner error, regardless of his power squabble with the God Learner collective supporting King Tualon. Why didn't Lutherans and Jesuits join forces against the feudalist and self-aggrandizing movements in the Catholic Church of the 17th century?

 

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

His stance appears to be no such thing because we are not told what his stance is.  Your statement should be better expressed as "I believe that he was guided by mystical insights gained through personal revelation".  

We do get a single quote from Halwal in the Guide (p.680):

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in 1010, the great sorcerer Halwal proclaimed that, “the God Learners were doomed from the start as the Great Mystery cannot be reduced to logical parts. Mystery predates Law and Reason.”

This, and his support of Irensavalists and Arkati, does coalesce into what appears (to me) as his stance. If your point of view prohibits this perception it still doesn't alter mine.

 

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

More importantly if what you suggest is true, why was he fighting against Yomili who was favouring Hrestolism and opposed to the self-same corrupt God Learners who had blocked his (Halwal) appointment?

I'll give you the Yomili hat, Peter, and will take the Halwal hat for myself. This very discussion shows how and why Halwal and Yomili did not agree with one another.

 

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

As an aside, Malkion the Sacrifice does not appear in the Guide which might mean that his existence is no longer canonical.

True, his existence might be contradicted in a future publication.

The Guide is a well-researched and well-edited document. It is not free of errors, though, and while it claims to offer all one may need to understand Glorantha, information about Glorantha doesn't end there, either.

 

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Given the order is described in the Guide as "extremist", I doubt the order was in the habit of accepting advice from anybody who didn't share their beliefs.  It's a point in your favour that he supported Hrestolism (which is the usual Malkioni method of mysticism) but the description of extremism means they didn't play well with others.  We also have to consider that possibility that the anger at being denied the position of Imperial High Sorceror may mean that Halwal had recanted his previous philosophy and become an irrational - cf his statement about the Great Mystery in the Guide p680).

I don't doubt that this was the official stance of the Seshnegi establishment when he started to undermine their authority in Fronela and later in Ralios. Religious and philosophical differences were accompanied by political and financial interests, and Halwal's concepts may have been vetoed by what remained of the imperial establishment outside of spiritual matters as much as inside.

Compare the fate of Patriarch Nestorius and his creed.

 

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Halwal aided them rather than revived or resurrected them  The Hrestoli (in the leadership of the Perfecti) were powerful enough to seize control of Frontem long before Halwal went among them to cause rebellion.  The Arkati didn't need help from Halwal in being revived.  What they did need from him - the one True Arkat - he couldn't provide.

But this suggests that Yomili was a fanatic which isn't what the sources describe.  Halwal is the one who is involved with extremists, not Yomili.

Yomili stood for the monolithic truth of a single philosophy, whereas Halwal supported the multitude of valid approaches to the core tenets of Malkionism. This is why I brought him into this original discussion about the Waertagi variant of Malkionism.

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Both the Waertagi and the early Seshnelan kings seem to work on the basis that interacting with gods is ok as long as the gods are your own ancestors. Note the importance of lineage and having a direct ancestral connection to the gods in the Xeotam Dialogues. I think that they believe that a connection with gods that is established by an ancestral connection does not threaten the soul as a connection established via submission or sacrifice does. There are no doubt differences in the form the interaction takes. So I reject the idea that the Waertagi pick up random pagan beliefs. Rather, their ancestor worship and their worship of the sea gods are considered the same things, as they can directly trace their ancestry back to the gods. 

I think the later purist Return to Rightness movement reject this reasoning, and this is one of the things that puts the early God Learners at odds with the Waertagi. 

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1 hour ago, davecake said:

So I reject the idea that the Waertagi pick up random pagan beliefs. Rather, their ancestor worship and their worship of the sea gods are considered the same things, as they can directly trace their ancestry back to the gods.

They are acquainted with sea deities who are not their ancestors, for example the different places named Sog after the spirits which the Waertagi worship there. The source of my speculation is that Sog is a giant undine of the King Undine's family, whose children live in Neliom's Sea, the Waertagi's home base near Brithos and the original Sog, but it is suggested they also do it in other places around the oceans.

 

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12 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:

They are acquainted with sea deities who are not their ancestors, for example the different places named Sog after the spirits which the Waertagi worship there. The source of my speculation is that Sog is a giant undine of the King Undine's family, whose children live in Neliom's Sea, the Waertagi's home base near Brithos and the original Sog, but it is suggested they also do it in other places around the oceans.

 

Ancestor doesn't necessarily mean direct ancestor, someone who branched off your great-by-the-power-of-x grandfather still qualifies. In this case, any descendant of Zaramaka is close enough.

It isn't clear that they worship the tidal waves - their sorcerers command them or make deals with them to carry their city ships into the dry docks. What is interesting about this is that the tidal wave apparently can be called outside of the natural tides.

The way Gloranthan tides work, high water accumulates only slowly as the Blue Moon rises outside of the Sky Dome from below the deepest seas, taking an average of 3 to 4 days for that climb (can be as little as one day and as much as 6 days). This doesn't really cause a tidal wave running into the harbor. The outgoing flow happens within hours, though, as the Blue Streak plummets from Pole Star through Magasta's Pool into the deepest hell.

The so-called tidal wave is really a weak form of a sea taking a run at dry land, not half as bad as Worcha. It is not tied to the tidal cycle, although a high tide obviously provides more water under the bellies of the Waertagi city ships.

Such "tidal waves" (a better name would be "harbor waves", which is the translation of tsunami) probably are common events in coastal Glorantha. The seas and their currents are sufficiently alive to send out such waves ever now and then, without the need for high magnitude earthquakes or mountainsides sliding into the sea. A few of the more impressive monsters like the Leviathan probably can cause such waves, too.

 

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On ‎19‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 10:20 AM, Joerg said:

Ancestor doesn't necessarily mean direct ancestor, someone who branched off your great-by-the-power-of-x grandfather still qualifies. In this case, any descendant of Zaramaka is close enough.

Every god in the sea pantheon is not an ancestor of the Waertagi race. Malkion, Waertag, and maybe some Triolini deities are. I would limit this ancestry to Waertag, but since Malkion is obviously an ancestor too, why not include the Triolini as well, as you pointed out earlier that Malkion was the son of a Triolini himself.

On ‎19‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 10:20 AM, Joerg said:

It isn't clear that they worship the tidal waves - their sorcerers command them or make deals with them to carry their city ships into the dry docks. What is interesting about this is that the tidal wave apparently can be called outside of the natural tides.

Yes, I think it's interesting too. Both methods should be possible, but tidal waves are caused by a deity, from one of the Nine Undine Clans of the Neliomi Sea.

On ‎19‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 10:20 AM, Joerg said:

The way Gloranthan tides work, high water accumulates only slowly as the Blue Moon rises outside of the Sky Dome from below the deepest seas, taking an average of 3 to 4 days for that climb (can be as little as one day and as much as 6 days). This doesn't really cause a tidal wave running into the harbor. The outgoing flow happens within hours, though, as the Blue Streak plummets from Pole Star through Magasta's Pool into the deepest hell.

The so-called tidal wave is really a weak form of a sea taking a run at dry land, not half as bad as Worcha. It is not tied to the tidal cycle, although a high tide obviously provides more water under the bellies of the Waertagi city ships.

Such "tidal waves" (a better name would be "harbor waves", which is the translation of tsunami) probably are common events in coastal Glorantha. The seas and their currents are sufficiently alive to send out such waves ever now and then, without the need for high magnitude earthquakes or mountainsides sliding into the sea. A few of the more impressive monsters like the Leviathan probably can cause such waves, too.

Doesn't it mean it is not necessary to dedicate a specialized deity for this whereas there is plenty of other causes?

 

 

 

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Sog is an elemental entity well known to the Waertagi, one they have friendly contact with, and who apparently benefits from their cooperation, too. I'm not sure how much the concept of Bab the Food Goddess (the submerged Earth Cube) still is canonical, but giving a water entity access to dry land food probably still is a good way to ensure its cooperation.

For the Waertagi, the trick is to get the tidal wave when they mean to ride into (or out of) their drydock, rather than waiting for some other cause to bring in such a wave. GIven the sizeable population of a cityship, they need a constant supply of food, which may mean serious overfishing if they stay in a place for too long.

When taking on drylander cargo or passengers, they would usually also take on food both for the passengers for the supposed duration of their journey and for themselves to avoid depleting their port's seafood supply permanently. Usually they would enter the ports on auxiliary vessels rather than on their cityships.

Waertagi are perfectly capable of beachhead landings, and of deploying marines rapidly from their vessels. Their mastery over the tidal waves means that they can make landings across reefs that usually would prevent any amphibious operation. While using this approach comfortably for raiding or for establishing a new colony (of passengers), they prefer to use ports with good cargo facilities for trading.

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6 hours ago, Joerg said:

When taking on drylander cargo or passengers, they would usually also take on food both for the passengers for the supposed duration of their journey and for themselves to avoid depleting their port's seafood supply permanently. Usually they would enter the ports on auxiliary vessels rather than on their cityships.

They are able to live at sea for a very long time and almost do not need to land. When they come near inhabited lands, and usually their dragonships never enter ports, it's for trade or perhaps occasional raids, so I favour the beach landing theory, using large canoes, as in the Aftal story.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Waertagi are perfectly capable of beachhead landings, and of deploying marines rapidly from their vessels. Their mastery over the tidal waves means that they can make landings across reefs that usually would prevent any amphibious operation. While using this approach comfortably for raiding or for establishing a new colony (of passengers), they prefer to use ports with good cargo facilities for trading.

The Waertagi are afraid of the land, and they don't go too far IMO. If they met any serious resistance, they wouldn't insist and risk dying to the last man. It is likely they'd seek mercenaries' help in such situations. Flooding enemy ports with tidal waves would be a tremendous attack. I remember reading somewhere that some Second Age Jrusteli port city was destroyed by the vengeful Waertagi.

Some of the Waertagi are naturally amphibious so they must be very good with shallows, reefs, etc. but most coastal people can count on Ludoch help too.

 

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