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RQG QuickStart - Parry questions

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I like the new parry which makes it possible to parry multiple attacks but with culmulative 20% penalty on every parry after the first.

1.Does this mean that characters can parry multiple attackers, or is it restricted to attacks from one source?  In which case do parries follow the same rule as attacks requiring over 100% to split parries with multiple attackers? 

2. Can a character attack and parry on the same Strike rank, or must one be sacrificed for the other?

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
I found clarification in the quick start regarding simultaneous attacks form two opponents p13 "resolution of melee, missiles, and spells"

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I also have a few parry questions - in general, I feel that the whole attack-parry-sequence is explained in a slightly roundabout way in the QS, leaving a few things unclear.

On p. 14, under "The Parry", it says: "A parrying weapon can only block damage equal to the parrying weapon's current hit points. If more points of damage get through, those points go on to do damage to a hit location of the defender." This seems to be the general rule, with exceptions for for critical and special success at parrying, where it is explicitly stated that "the parrying weapon (and the defender) take no damage". However, in case of a success, it only says: "the attack is parried, but the parrying shield or weapon loses 1 hit point."

Taking all this together, I'm not quite sure how to resolve a succesful parry against a succesful attack, especially with regards to the question when a weapon would break.

Version 1: The attacker rolls damage. if the damage is below or equal to the weapons current hp, the weapon loses one hp and nothing else happens. If it exceeds the weapon's hp, the weapon also loses 1 hp, and all excess damage goes into the hit location.

Version 2: The attacker rolls damage. if the damage is below or equal to the weapons current hp, the weapon loses one hp and nothing else happens. If it exceeds the weapon's hp, the weapon breaks, and all excess damage goes into the hit location.

Version 3: There's no need to roll damage. The parrying weapon slimpy loses one hp, and all damage is absorbed.

 

Version one seems most in line with the rules as written - it's simply a combination of the general rule for damage overflow and what is stated under the sucess at parrying. Version 2 seems to make sense, also, but on the other hand, breaking a weapon seems to be a special case that is only explicitly mentioned under parry success against failed attacks. However, I strongly suspect that a weapon is supposed to break once it loses all its hp (but also when its hp are overcome in one strike ...?). Then again, not even the critical and special successes at attack explicitly state something about weapons breaking; it is just said that the defending weapon "takes" the criticals damage with the rest going to the defender - which, going by what it says under "The Parry", would be the general rule anyway, so it's not quite clear why it is mentioned again here, but then left out when describing the results of a normal success at attacking. That makes it seem very much as if the damage overflow thing would be a special rule for critical and special successes at attacking, which it is clearly not.

Version 3 is what I actually thought first after reading through "The Parry", since I was focussing on the bullet points. However, this would conflict with what I quoted from the main text under "The Parry", so its probably the wrong answer ...

Going by all that, I would tend to go with Version 1, but I'm still not quite sure whether the weapon would be supposed to break if its hp are overcome or not. Both would make sense. I think all of this would probably be easier to understand if it came in a chart with the outcomes for each possible combination spelled out separately.

 

Another related thing: Dodging. It says "The Dodge skill may be used to avoid a melee attack instead of a parry". I suspect that this also means that the cumulative -20 for multiple parries includes dodges, meaning that if I have parried once in the same round, I dodge at -20, and if I then parry again, that's at -40 - right? Also, can I dodge and parry on the same SR? Can I make several dodges on the same SR?

 

And finally, shields. I didn't get it first, but shields are actually very cool, because you can use them to for a second parry at the same strike rank if you already used your main weapon to parry. However, one thing is also unclear to me: "When a shield succesfully parries a succesful attack, the shield uses one hip oint and the damage of the attack is absorbed entirely." This seems to state explicitly that even if the damage exceeds the shields hp, it is still entirely absorbed (as opposed to when I parry with a normal weapon) - is that right? (not talking about special and critical successes here, it's stated explicitly that shields are damaged by them.)

 

A bunch of nitpicky questions, I know - but these are the small things that keep nagging at me in sleepless nights ...

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:) Lovely, it looks they have picked up the old Stormbringer rule. Sorry, I obviously cannot answer as I'll have to wait July 1 for the 

 

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1 hour ago, Jakob said:

I also have a few parry questions - in general, I feel that the whole attack-parry-sequence is explained in a slightly roundabout way in the QS, leaving a few things unclear.

On p. 14, under "The Parry", it says: "A parrying weapon can only block damage equal to the parrying weapon's current hit points. If more points of damage get through, those points go on to do damage to a hit location of the defender." This seems to be the general rule, with exceptions for for critical and special success at parrying, where it is explicitly stated that "the parrying weapon (and the defender) take no damage". However, in case of a success, it only says: "the attack is parried, but the parrying shield or weapon loses 1 hit point."

Taking all this together, I'm not quite sure how to resolve a succesful parry against a succesful attack, especially with regards to the question when a weapon would break.

Version 1: The attacker rolls damage. if the damage is below or equal to the weapons current hp, the weapon loses one hp and nothing else happens. If it exceeds the weapon's hp, the weapon also loses 1 hp, and all excess damage goes into the hit location.

Version 2: The attacker rolls damage. if the damage is below or equal to the weapons current hp, the weapon loses one hp and nothing else happens. If it exceeds the weapon's hp, the weapon breaks, and all excess damage goes into the hit location.

Version 3: There's no need to roll damage. The parrying weapon slimpy loses one hp, and all damage is absorbed.

 

Version one seems most in line with the rules as written - it's simply a combination of the general rule for damage overflow and what is stated under the sucess at parrying. Version 2 seems to make sense, also, but on the other hand, breaking a weapon seems to be a special case that is only explicitly mentioned under parry success against failed attacks. However, I strongly suspect that a weapon is supposed to break once it loses all its hp (but also when its hp are overcome in one strike ...?). Then again, not even the critical and special successes at attack explicitly state something about weapons breaking; it is just said that the defending weapon "takes" the criticals damage with the rest going to the defender - which, going by what it says under "The Parry", would be the general rule anyway, so it's not quite clear why it is mentioned again here, but then left out when describing the results of a normal success at attacking. That makes it seem very much as if the damage overflow thing would be a special rule for critical and special successes at attacking, which it is clearly not.

Version 3 is what I actually thought first after reading through "The Parry", since I was focussing on the bullet points. However, this would conflict with what I quoted from the main text under "The Parry", so its probably the wrong answer ...

Going by all that, I would tend to go with Version 1, but I'm still not quite sure whether the weapon would be supposed to break if its hp are overcome or not. Both would make sense. I think all of this would probably be easier to understand if it came in a chart with the outcomes for each possible combination spelled out separately.

 

Another related thing: Dodging. It says "The Dodge skill may be used to avoid a melee attack instead of a parry". I suspect that this also means that the cumulative -20 for multiple parries includes dodges, meaning that if I have parried once in the same round, I dodge at -20, and if I then parry again, that's at -40 - right? Also, can I dodge and parry on the same SR? Can I make several dodges on the same SR?

 

And finally, shields. I didn't get it first, but shields are actually very cool, because you can use them to for a second parry at the same strike rank if you already used your main weapon to parry. However, one thing is also unclear to me: "When a shield succesfully parries a succesful attack, the shield uses one hip oint and the damage of the attack is absorbed entirely." This seems to state explicitly that even if the damage exceeds the shields hp, it is still entirely absorbed (as opposed to when I parry with a normal weapon) - is that right? (not talking about special and critical successes here, it's stated explicitly that shields are damaged by them.)

 

A bunch of nitpicky questions, I know - but these are the small things that keep nagging at me in sleepless nights ...

From my reading of the QS, a successful weapon parry against a successful attack will block damage equal to the weapons armor points, any remaining damage is passed onto the target. The parrying weapon will lose 1 armor point regardless of rolled attack damage.

In contrast a special and critical attack against a successful parry results in the full weapon damage being received by the parrying weapon.

Shields absorb all damage from a successful attack regardless of rolled weapon damage, taking 1 pt dam.  But again if the attack is a special or critical result then the shield will take that full damage with any remaining being passed onto the target.

Regarding dodge, I presume that as with RQ3, you have to make a choice between either using parry or dodge. I don't think you can use both. QS states that dodge is effective against all attacks from one source only, but you have to roll for each attack. There is no mention of culmulative penalties for extra dodge rolls so I presume that it's considered the same chance each time.

I'm not sure about dodging and attacking on the same strike rank, or dodging and parrying on the same SR. It's likely tied to the same question I had regarding attacking and parrying on the same SR.

edit: I imagine like with past editions, you can only perform one action on a single Strike rank. 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp

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7 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

From my reading of the QS, a successful weapon parry against a successful attack will block damage equal to the weapons armor points, any remaining damage is passed onto the target. The parrying weapon will lose 1 armor point regardless of rolled attack damage.

In contrast a special and critical attack against a successful parry results in the full weapon damage being received by the parrying weapon.

Shields absorb all damage from a successful attack regardless of rolled weapon damage, taking 1 pt dam.  But again if the attack is a special or critical result then the shield will take that full damage with any remaining being passed onto the target.

Regarding dodge, I presume that as with RQ3, you have to make a choice between either using parry or dodge. I don't think you can use both. QS states that dodge is effective against all attacks from one source only, but you have to roll for each attack. There is no mention of culmulative penalties for extra dodge rolls so I presume that it's considered the same chance each time.

I'm not sure about dodging and attacking on the same strike rank, or dodging and parrying on the same SR. It's likely tied to the same question I had regarding attacking and parrying on the same SR.

edit: I imagine like with past editions, you can only perform one action on a single Strike rank. 

Thanks, that seems to make sense! It's more or less what I came up with after thinking things through, so that's probably how it's supposed to be.

Regarding the choice between parry or dodge: Would you say that you can choose on each SR? Or do you make a choice for the whole round and stick to it? Also, if there's no cumulative penalties for extra dodge rolls, does it mean you can theoretically dodge as many attacks as you like on every strike rank? That would seem excessive ... I suspect that dodge might be subject to the cumulative penalty after all, since it says in the rules that the dodge skill may be used instead of a parry - that sounds a little like: "You're doing a parry, but you use the dodge skill." Am I making any sense ...?

Edited by Jakob
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8 hours ago, smiorgan said:

:) Lovely, it looks they have picked up the old Stormbringer rule. Sorry, I obviously cannot answer as I'll have to wait July 1 for the 

 

That's strange, because I actually played a lot of Stormbringer back in the days ... but I must confess that I don't remember the details of the combat rules that well. I think we just played it as "if you parry, no damage is rolled and all damage is blocked" and didn't use anything like weapon hp. I guess I need to get out my Stormbringer rules and have another look at them!

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18 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I like the new parry which makes it possible to parry multiple attacks but with culmulative 20% penalty on every parry after the first.

1.Does this mean that characters can parry multiple attackers, or is it restricted to attacks from one source?  In which case do parries follow the same rule as attacks requiring over 100% to split parries with multiple attackers? 

2. Can a character attack and parry on the same Strike rank, or must one be sacrificed for the other?

Delving back into the QS, I found on P7 under "Strike Ranks" that "a parry does not take any strike ranks".

1. If parry is outside of the Strike rank mechanism does this indicate that you can indeed parry and attack on the same strike rank if necessary? If so that is a new departure from RuneQuest classic. 

2. I'm still unclear on whether parries can be used against attacks from multiple sources? My guess is that they can, as the text doesn't mention specifically "from one source", as it does clearly in the case of the Dodge description.

3 . Does Dodge also sit outside the strike rank mechanism? Is it possible to dodge and attack on the same strike rank? or do you loose the attack if you dodge on the same SR?

4. What are the limits to using dodge & parry in a Melee round? When attacks come from multiple sources, is it possible to chose parry against one opponent, and then chose dodge against a second opponent in the same round melee round? This also ties into question 2 in this post - Can parries be used against attacks from different sources in a melee round.

5. If a single attacker has more then 1 attack, is it possible for the defender to chose to alternate between parry and dodge for each different attack from the same attacker?

Interesting that shield & weapons used to parry automatically take 1 dam on a successful parry, regardless attackers rolled damage. Specials and crits that are parried on a normal success are likely to break weapons/shields as the full special/critical damage is taken by the parring weapon/shield.  Weapons and shields have a real sense of vulnerability. I like that. Truly deadly combat.

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
Edited to include the 4th & 5th questions which arose from discussion below.
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5 hours ago, Jakob said:

Regarding the choice between parry or dodge: Would you say that you can choose on each SR? Or do you make a choice for the whole round and stick to it?

In past editions you chose to use either parry or dodge, and that was your defensive action for the whole round. From reading the text that seems to be what is indicated,

P13 Resolution of melee, Missles, and Spells

"The defender may try to parry or dodge the attack"

 

Perhaps it could be clearer with respect to the defender making the choice between parry or dodge, for the whole round. There is some ambiguity which could indicate that the defender could parry one attack from one source, and dodge another attack from a different source. I'm not quite clear from the text on the limits of using dodge and parry against multiple sources. Though I do think the text is clear on one on one situations - You either use parry or dodge, not both. Hopefully the designers will read this and put us right.

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5 hours ago, Jakob said:

Also, if there's no cumulative penalties for extra dodge rolls, does it mean you can theoretically dodge as many attacks as you like on every strike rank? That would seem excessive ...

Dodge only works against attacks from one source. Most humanoids have only one attack in a round, unless they have 2 weapons, or are over 100% in their attack skill in which case they can split their attack (50% min). So it doesn't seem excessive to me that all attacks from one source can have an attempted dodge roll. If it was multiple opponents attacking I would agree with you.

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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5 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Dodge only works against attacks from one source. Most humanoids have only one attack in a round, unless they have 2 weapons, or are over 100% in their attack skill in which case they can split their attack (50% min). So it doesn't seem excessive to me that all attacks from one source can have an attempted dodge roll. If it was multiple opponents attacking I would agree with you.

I agree - being able to dodge multiple attacks by one opponent feels right, I would say - multiple opponents, not so much.

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This was my conclusion, after trying several times to parse the QS rules: (it's easier for me to see it on a matrix)

 

Attack vs DODGE

Dodge Critical

Dodge Special

Dodge Success

Dodge Fail

Dodge Fumb

Att Critical

Att Miss

Att Crit

Att Crit

Att Crit

Att Crit Hit

Att Special

Att Miss

Att Miss

Att Special

Att Special

Att Spec Hit

Att Success

Att Miss

Att Miss

Att Miss

Att Norm Hit

Att Norm Hit

Att Fail

Att Miss

Att Miss

Att Miss

Att Miss

Att Norm Hit

Att Fumble

Att Miss & Fumble

Att Miss &Fumble

Att Miss & Fumble

Att Miss & Fumble

Att Norm Hit

Dodge: may dodge all attacks from one source, roll dodge vs each attack.

 

Attack vs PARRY

Parry Critical

Parry Special

Parry Success

Parry Fail

Parry Fumble

Att Critical

Att blocked,

Parr -1AP

Att Spec, dmg to Parr AP, excess to target

Att Crit, dmg to Parr AP, excess to target

Att Crit

Att Crit, Parry Fumb

Att Special

Att blocked completely

Att blocked,

Parr -1AP

Att Spec, dmg to Parr AP, excess to target

Att Special

Att Special,

Parry Fumb

Att Success

Parry Dmg Att

Att blocked completely

Att blocked,

Parr -1AP

Att Norm Hit

Att Norm Hit,

Parry Fumb

Att Fail

Parry Dmg Att

Parry Dmg Att

Parry Dmg Att

Att Miss

Att Miss,

Parry Fumb

Att Fumble

Att Miss & Fumb, Parry Dmg Att

Att Miss & Fumb, Parry Dmg Att

Att Miss & Fumb, Parry Dmg Att

Att Miss & Fumb

Att Miss & Fumb,

Parry Fumb

Att Crit: attacker does maximum possible damage, ignoring armor

Att Spec: attacker rolls damage twice

Att/Parry Fumble: drops weapon/shield 1d3m away, random direction

Parry Damage Att: Parrying weapon does rolled damage (incl STR) vs Att weapon; if exceeds AP Att weapon broken; else 1 AP damage to Att weapon.

 

If I seem to have markedly misunderstood something, let me know so I can revise my matrix.

Edited by styopa
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The change to parry in the new quick start rules seems a significant departure from the structure of RQ2/3. Being able to parry multiple attacks at a cumulative penalty could indicate that parry is no longer governed by the same split attack/parry rule of RQ2( attacks & parries over 100% could be split to allow for multiple attacks/parries). It all depends on whether parry works against multiple opponents, or is intended to only be effective against attacks from a single opponent. The Quick start rules aren't clear on this. 

It would make sense if parry and dodge were only effective against attacks from one source ( as we know dodge is). If that were the case, both parry & dodge could still be governed by the RQ2 rule of splitting attacks over 100% to defend against attacks from multiple opponents. 

 

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52 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

The change to parry in the new quick start rules seems a significant departure from the structure of RQ2/3. Being able to parry multiple attacks at a cumulative penalty could indicate that parry is no longer governed by the same split attack/parry rule of RQ2( attacks & parries over 100% could be split to allow for multiple attacks/parries). It all depends on whether parry works against multiple opponents, or is intended to only be effective against attacks from a single opponent. The Quick start rules aren't clear on this. 

It would make sense if parry and dodge were only effective against attacks from one source ( as we know dodge is). If that were the case, both parry & dodge could still be governed by the RQ2 rule of splitting attacks over 100% to defend against attacks from multiple opponents. 

 

Certainly we have to remember too that we're looking at the QS rules, Jason had to do might shoehorning to get a workable package of rules in 24pages for this.  

A lot of this may be already clarified in the actual product, 6 months away from being available....  

However the questions raised here will almost certainly be used to inform the design team about points worth reviewing and make sure they are clear in the full text.

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On 19/06/2017 at 7:14 AM, Jakob said:

That's strange, because I actually played a lot of Stormbringer back in the days ... but I must confess that I don't remember the details of the combat rules that well. I think we just played it as "if you parry, no damage is rolled and all damage is blocked" and didn't use anything like weapon hp. I guess I need to get out my Stormbringer rules and have another look at them!

I think it was a reference to the cumulative 20% per parry.

As far as I know (I only know the second edition of SB), this rule was introduced in Elric!, and as a result was also in SB 5th.

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15 hours ago, styopa said:

 

Attack vs PARRY

Parry Critical

Parry Special

Parry Success

Parry Fail

Parry Fumble

Att Critical

Att blocked,

Parr -1AP

Att Spec, dmg to Parr AP, excess to target

Att Crit, dmg to Parr AP, excess to target

Att Crit

Att Crit, Parry Fumb

Att Special

Att blocked completely

Att blocked,

Parr -1AP

Att Spec, dmg to Parr AP, excess to target

Att Special

Att Special,

Parry Fumb

Att Success

Parry Dmg Att

Att blocked completely

Att blocked,

Parr -1AP

Att Norm Hit

Att Norm Hit,

Parry Fumb

Att Fail

Parry Dmg Att

Parry Dmg Att

Parry Dmg Att

Att Miss

Att Miss,

Parry Fumb

Att Fumble

Att Miss & Fumb, Parry Dmg Att

Att Miss & Fumb, Parry Dmg Att

Att Miss & Fumb, Parry Dmg Att

Att Miss & Fumb

Att Miss & Fumb,

Parry Fumb

 

How many Hit Points do weapons have, in general ?

At a rate of 1 HP (or more) per parry, it seems they will break often.

Is it possible to get HP back through crafts ?

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Swords and such have 10 - 12 AP but will break automatically if the rolled damage exceeds the AP. So I imagine weapon smiths doing a fine trade in Sartar

RQ2 had additional mechanics for hafted weapons, spears, axes etc. perhaps this will be included

I can see the Spirit Magic spell Repair becoming a soldiers favourite

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59 minutes ago, Psullie said:

 

Swords and such have 10 - 12 AP but will break automatically if the rolled damage exceeds the AP. So I imagine weapon smiths doing a fine trade in Sartar

 

Bear in mind that only specials and crits do full damage to parry weapons -  Crits full double damage, and Special is rolled double damage.

Standard hit does just 1 damage to a successful parry weapon ( which I believe it takes even if the damage is below the AP of the weapon)

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
Found clarification in earlier post

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1 hour ago, Psullie said:

Swords and such have 10 - 12 AP but will break automatically if the rolled damage exceeds the AP. So I imagine weapon smiths doing a fine trade in Sartar

RQ2 had additional mechanics for hafted weapons, spears, axes etc. perhaps this will be included

I can see the Spirit Magic spell Repair becoming a soldiers favourite

Wow. That means a standard sword can only be used 10 or 12 times for parry.

RuneQuest 3 weapons had similar Armor Points value, but you lost 1 point when damage was >= current AP value. That is, when RQ:G weapons break.

Edited by Mugen

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2 hours ago, Mugen said:

Wow. That means a standard sword can only be used 10 or 12 times for parry.

RuneQuest 3 weapons had similar Armor Points value, but you lost 1 point when damage was >= current AP value. That is, when RQ:G weapons break.

:blink::(:angry:

I need to re-read those rules in the QS, to see if I agree with this emerging consensus.

If weapons are indeed this fragile in RQG, this strikes me as... erm... broken (so to speak).

 

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1 hour ago, g33k said:

:blink::(:angry:

I need to re-read those rules in the QS, to see if I agree with this emerging consensus.

If weapons are indeed this fragile in RQG, this strikes me as... erm... broken (so to speak).

 

Correct me if I am wrong but the damage has to equal or exceed the HP of the weapon to cause it damage, unless the attacker rolls a critical or critical? Rereading the QS leaves some ambiguity.

Overall this means that basic run-of-the-mill weapons will probably soon get trashed against big, tough opponents but survive battles against minor opponents (unless they get lucky)? If so it makes sense to me. 

Looking forward to the complete rules, fully tweaked and polished. 

Edited by jongjom
correction

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24 minutes ago, jongjom said:

Correct me if I am wrong but the damage has to equal or exceed the HP of the weapon to cause it damage, unless the attacker rolls a critical or critical? Rereading the QS leaves some ambiguity.

Overall this means that basic run-of-the-mill weapons will probably soon get trashed against big, tough opponents but survive battles against minor opponents (unless they get lucky)? If so it makes sense to me. 

Looking forward to the complete rules, fully tweaked and polished. 

QS RAW:  Parry Success (vs successful attack) [or special vs special, or crit vs crit]: The attack is parried, but the parrying shield or weapon loses 1 hit point.

So it doesn't appear to matter how much damage the attacking weapon would cause - 1 point or 40 points, a successful parry means the attack is parried and the parrying item takes 1ap.


Note that the text highlights the difference between a parrying WEAPON and a parrying SHIELD.  They are treated differently.  

A parrying weapon only blocks as many AP as it has, excess goes on to the defender.  A shield is different: "...When a shield successfully parries a successful attack, the shield loses 1 hit point and the damage of the attack is absorbed entirely....".  

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1 minute ago, styopa said:

QS RAW:  Parry Success (vs successful attack) [or special vs special, or crit vs crit]: The attack is parried, but the parrying shield or weapon loses 1 hit point.

So it doesn't appear to matter how much damage the attacking weapon would cause - 1 point or 40 points, a successful parry means the attack is parried and the parrying item takes 1ap.


Note that the text highlights the difference between a parrying WEAPON and a parrying SHIELD.  They are treated differently.  

A parrying weapon only blocks as many AP as it has, excess goes on to the defender.  A shield is different: "...When a shield successfully parries a successful attack, the shield loses 1 hit point and the damage of the attack is absorbed entirely....".  

Yes, unless there is a crucial omission of text in the QS, that is how it reads - Weapon or shield, will take 1hp of damage regardless of rolled damage on a successful parry vs successful attack. 

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While the seeming brittleness of weapons is strange, this might really be a quickstarter thing that will be handled differently in the full rules - after all, it's something that will only become relevant after several combats, and the QS scenario features, one, maybe two battles ...

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2 minutes ago, styopa said:

QS RAW:  Parry Success (vs successful attack) [or special vs special, or crit vs crit]: The attack is parried, but the parrying shield or weapon loses 1 hit point.

So it doesn't appear to matter how much damage the attacking weapon would cause - 1 point or 40 points, a successful parry means the attack is parried and the parrying item takes 1ap.


Note that the text highlights the difference between a parrying WEAPON and a parrying SHIELD.  They are treated differently.  

A parrying weapon only blocks as many AP as it has, excess goes on to the defender.  A shield is different: "...When a shield successfully parries a successful attack, the shield loses 1 hit point and the damage of the attack is absorbed entirely....".  

Yeah I  reread (again!), saw that and agree.  

One potential typo: maybe replace 'absorbed' with 'deflected'. 

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