Chalana Arroy Cult Strictures and their interpretation.

[Darius West]

6 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Sunripen prevents mold, rust and other "plant disease spirits" while discouraging vermin.

 

The target for Sunripen is a field, so I don't know if it can technically be cast on Aldryami to prevent disease.  A fascinating and perverse suggestion though scott-martin, I have never heard of casting sunripen on an elf to prevent disease.  So lets propose something of a compromise...

While elves might be plants, player elves are certainly susceptible to broo diseases, not just anti-aldryami diseases broo may or may not carry.  In short, if a broo is carrying soul waste, an elf can catch it, and I don't think sunripen will cure it because it isn't a plant disease.  This justifies the existence of the CAs in Aldryami forests and the close relationship.

Conspiracy theory: That special relationship between Aldrya and Arroin, you don't suppose they were banging and made Pavis back in God Time?  I mean does anyone know the name of Pavis' parents? (jk)

Thanks scott-martin, that was a warped and imaginative post.

[scott-martin]

High praise indeed given the source. Maybe let's give the bloody rites of Arroin and other veggie tales their own thread when/if I ever get out of the office. 

She might well have stolen that Man Rune altogether, in which case Pavis Himself would be only a famous recent case. (Why are Green females designed to be so attractive to human males?) I hear you also on Sunripen . . . my fantasies of them casting it prophylactically on fields of ripening sprats like we immunize children may be a little broad, and either way it protects their bodies and not the more psychic forms of Gloranthan disease. 

Did forget one possible "consolation of Chalana" for them, though. Aldrya has no remedy against death. This is probably not a problem for most, but we probably see the occasional militant Evergreen get so spooked at the prospect of not coming back next spring that s/he takes the white robe to get close to resurrection. Maybe a few Browns as well. Either way, they're going to be, uh, on the nutty side.

Edited July 4, 2017 by scott-martin

[Steve]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Do the CA characters in Rune Masters use shields?

Yes and they have daggers, spears and axes too.

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

While I can agree with part of this, I think it is more equivocal than you suggest.  I would totally agree that the EWF represents an attempt to completely and dramatically remodel Orlanthi society, but as you say, it failed and so while things changed for a while, they also returned to homeostasis and everyone involved in the change died and everything that was achieved is almost forgotten.  

There is no homeostasis state: the Orlanthi repeatedly demonstrate an ability for significant societal change, as Esrolia and Sartar demonstrate.

 

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Orlanthi seem to have a capacity to centralize a little, creating kingdoms, but really the Vinkotlings had kingdoms, and it is hard to point to anything remarkably different about Orlanthi society since the time of the Vinkotlings.  

And who is telling the stories about the Vinkotlings?

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

 I mean on close inspection the members of Orlanthi society that have changed the most as the Lhankor Mhys, who have learned sorcery from the God Learners, and have developed books and universities from what started as marks on bark, yet somewhat ironically the Lhankor Mhys are a stasis rune cult.

You are out by at least an Age, as Lhankor Mhy, like Chalana Arroy, was an alien deity that joined Orlanth's Quest, and so are not represented in the Vinkotling era. Lhankor Mhy appears to be a foreigner from the West, and Chalana Arroy from the North. Quite a number of 'Orlanthi' deities are foreigners, and some of the 'native' gods have been forgotten and replaced by them.

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

 I am having a lot of trouble pointing to a single major technical or social innovation that markedly separates first age Orlanthi from third age Orlanthi, clearly the history changed, but the way of life seems as static as the gods.

Hmm, you need to read the history of the First Age. The society of the World Council of Friends and its political descendants differ significantly from those of Third Age Orlanthi.

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

I agree that Argrath does change a lot, but the inference is that the destruction of literacy returns Orlanthi society to homeostasis yet again, based on KoDP.  

By the Fourth Age there are no Orlanthi, or at least none that resemble those of the early Hero Wars period.

 

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

 I mean, let's compare how much the Pelorians have changed over the same time period when compared to the Orlanthi Barbarian Belt, and we know the Dara Happans hate change.

The pure Dara Happans haven't changed much from what they believe are their cultural norms; whilst the Lunars are heirs to Dara Happan culture (and several others) they are not Dara Happans, even though the Red Emperor passes the Ten Tests to be the Emperor of Dara Happa.

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Anyhow, if you can think of any really solid and specific examples you can point to that support the notion that the Orlanthi are actually progressing I would be genuinely relieved to hear it. 

You are confusing 'progress' with Change, and viewing Orlanthi culture as a monolithic culture, which it is not. One only has to compare Esrolia, Sartar, Saird, Charg etc. to see that the template varies far more than may be immediately apparent. It's a bit like saying that European culture didn't change much between 1000 BC and 1000 AD because the same roughly feudal or tribal society was present throughout, with only a few changes in technology and political organization.

Edited July 4, 2017 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I would totally agree that the EWF represents an attempt to completely and dramatically remodel Orlanthi society, but as you say, it failed and so while things changed for a while, they also returned to homeostasis and everyone involved in the change died and everything that was achieved is almost forgotten.

Orlanthi society changed already prior to the EWF - the Council of Orlanthland ruled the Orlanthi lands liberated from the Bright Empire, and then from Arkat's Command. The urbanisation had already started when Aventus (King of the Hendriki, ruling over the area that is modern Heortland including Volsaxar) issued his Foreigner Laws.

The EWF started comparatively late, and inherited the urban structures from the council of priests that ruled Orlanthland.

The introduction of Great Living Heroes (like Renvald among the Old Day Traditionalists or Varankol of the Aramites who were allies or a subculture of the EWF) took place in this time, too - IIRC the position was created for ending Arkat's Command.

The draconic orientation of the EWF failed. The urban society didn't quite, but cities of Dragon Pass didn't have the means to stop the combined military might of all of Peloria. A significant portion of the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass fled south. The devastation by the Dragons and the subsequent blockade of Dragon Pass 

In Kethaela, the Adjustment Wars in Esrolia focussed on taking over cities, and the cities in Heortland kept growing, too.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Orlanthi seem to have a capacity to centralize a little, creating kingdoms, but really the Vinkotlings had kingdoms, and it is hard to point to anything remarkably different about Orlanthi society since the time of the Vinkotlings.

The Vingkotlings basically had one kingdom, and a few peripheral tribes like the Harandings.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

 I mean on close inspection the members of Orlanthi society that have changed the most as the Lhankor Mhys, who have learned sorcery from the God Learners,

The Lhankor Mhytes were alchemy users already at the Dawn. (Alchemy is the Orlanthi term for acceptable sorcery.) The followers of Arkat were sorcery users, too, but fell afoul of some ultra-conservative king.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

and have developed books and universities from what started as marks on bark, yet somewhat ironically the Lhankor Mhys are a stasis rune cult.  

The temples were accumulations of documents already before contact with the God Learners. Lhankor Mhy was the scribe who put down the contract of Nochet.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am having a lot of trouble pointing to a single major technical or social innovation that markedly separates first age Orlanthi from third age Orlanthi, clearly the history changed, but the way of life seems as static as the gods.

Isn't this mostly true for the other cultures of Glorantha as well? Dara Happa had metropolises before the Flood, and rice paddies, and it still has. The recent introduction of maize has changed the Orlanthi of Tarsh and the provinces more than the river valleys of Dara Happa.

Both Seshnela and Dragon Pass experienced a deportation. The Rokari sect is somewhat different from previous Hrestolism or Makanism. The pendulum has swung towards and away from Henotheism several times, so the current high ground of Theoblanc might find a severe change ahead when the Waertagi come.

The Enerali of Safelster had been converted to the Theyalan rites in the Dawn Age. They then adopted Arkat's ways, which included some Malkionism, then were conquered by the Seshnegi crusaders, until Halwal re-awakened the remnants of their Arkati inheritance and led them against the Makanists of Old Seshnela. They remained free of Rokarism until Ulianus III managed to conquer most of Safelster (not the oulying hill barbarians, though), but that lasted for only two generations, until the current king of Seshnela started another campaign. So yes, Ralios showed more change.

The Lunar Empire is a great leap in Peloria, although the debate remains into which direction. They brought back goddesses from before Brighteye's usurpation in the early Golden Age. They also brought back Natha in even bigger style than under the lion shahs or Daxdarius, and they repeat the strategy of the Artmali Moon empire.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

To be fair, there are a few new hero subcults of Orlanth.  

That's an ongoing feature since before the Dawn - bringing up new hero cults is traditional among the Orlanthi, both in the closer sense and in the wider, Theyalan sense.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Perhaps the change is more about individual freedom and social mobility in an otherwise pretty static culture?  

Harmast was adopted as a pauper, and lived as a cottar before going onto the LBQ.

Individual freedom has been a virtue among the Hendriki since before the creation of that tribe from survivors of the Garanvuli, and has been anathema for the Grandmothers of Esrolia for even longer.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I agree that Argrath does change a lot, but the inference is that the destruction of literacy returns Orlanthi society to homeostasis yet again, based on KoDP.  

The question is how universal this curse of illiteracy will be. Could it be a parallel to the Syndics' Ban, with the bearded one rather than the speaking one as the target of this theomachy. The memory removal may be a similar, possibly localized effect.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Perhaps we should view each 600 years as a Gloranthan meta-year with meta-seasons of 100 years culminating with the return of the Devil and the presumed survival of the world and a return to homeostasis via deus ex machina at the closing of the age and reassertion of the compromise?

With each cataclysm, the world gets somewhat more frayed, however optimistic the intermediate new creativity may set out, whether Sartar's road building, the Lunar inclusivity, or Belintar's Golden Age pastiche in Kethaela.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Do you ever get the feeling that Mastakos might understand "speed and movement" but the whole "change" thing has sort of eluded him?  

Sure - Mastakos is the god of motion and locomotion, not the changer. That portion of Larnste resides elsewhere, among the Hendriki, and the Sartar Dynasty.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I mean, let's compare how much the Pelorians have changed over the same time period when compared to the Orlanthi Barbarian Belt, andt we know the Dara Happans hate change.  

The Dara Happans were conquered over and over again - by the horse nomads, by the Orlanthi, almost by the Spolites, through marriage by the Lion Shahs, through military suppression by the Bull Shahs, through assassination and co-regency by the Lunars, through bad-ass failed mysticism by Sheng, and once again by Carmanians, this time under Lunar management.

The organisation of the Tripolis or the rice farmers hasn't changed a lot. The Lunar way offers a differen mob outlet than e.g. the Want Mores or illumination sects of the Imperial Age. The Lunars have inserted themselves in numerous levels in the Dara Happan establishment, like the Bull Shahs and their followers before, like the 

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I suppose that perhaps we can point to the incursion of the West into Hendrikiland and the subsequent creation of Orlanthi feudalism and the Church of Saint Aeolus might be an example of something new, but it feels more like something imposed from without and subsequently adopted grudgingly.  

That's a line I used to follow in my early explorations of the Aeolians, but it turned out that Greg's idea for them was somewhat different. In the meantime, there have been quite a few explorations of those guys, and their presentation within the de-catholicized version of the Malkioni philosophy works fine for me.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Anyhow, if you can think of any really solid and specific examples you can point to that support the notion that the Orlanthi are actually progressing I would be genuinely relieved to hear it. 

Take a look at Ralios rather than the Amish of Dragon Pass following that Praxian mystic. The Chariot of Lightning sect is an interesting phenomenon. Also look at the cult of Invisible Orlanth in Carmania - it will be interesting how they will be able to deal with the bull folk out of Charg.

The forest Orlanthi of Umathela will show how they can aid the aldryami of Enkloso resisting the leveling of their environment by the Mostali, and the Fronelan Orlanthi cannot remain on the sidelines of the conflict between Loskalm and the Kingdom of War. The Jonating kingdom with its Malkioni veneer and its bear Orlanthi suprematists may not exacly embody your ideal of individual freedom, but they are one of the biggest Orlanthi polities, and they get to throw their weight behind one or the other corrupted conquerors.

The poor, devastated inhabitants of the Windstop and their Sairdite allies are hopelessly afloat in the turmoils of the Hero Wars. This is all of the Orlanthi Gods War experience, and all the change it brought to them, from the divine band of Thunderbrothers via the Vingkotling/Dureving demigod struggle, and the Heortlings picking up from the scattered and shattered shards of the universe while Orlanth designed the compromise, adopting all manner of outsiders into their ranks.

Argrath's counter-movement to Red Moon inclusion is at least as inclusive, as devastating in the choice of his allies. The destruction of Harrek, awakening the giants and the dragons - this goes as deep down to the roots of the universe as Teelo Estara and her mothers did. If anything comes out of the shattered and reformed remains of his people, it will be as different from Sartar's tribes as the Heortling survivors were from the Vingkotling conquerors and defenders.

So, yes, I see lots of different outcomes of the various corners of the Orlanthi, whether in Maniria/Peloria, in Fronela, in Ralios, or in Umathela. I don't expect a single Orlanthi culture to emerge from the Hero Wars.

[Jolt]

I just wanted to clarify a tangential point that occurred to me while reading this thread.

Regarding Chaos and what "belongs in the world", isn't one of the foundations of the Great Compromise that Chaos is considered to be apart of the world?  That's how I always read it and I was wondering if I missed something.

[GianniVacca]

20 hours ago, Jolt said:

Regarding Chaos and what "belongs in the world", isn't one of the foundations of the Great Compromise that Chaos is considered to be apart of the world?  That's how I always read it and I was wondering if I missed something.

Chaos is a part of the world that must not be allowed to seep into it :-)

[Darius West]

On 7/5/2017 at 4:38 AM, M Helsdon said:

You are confusing 'progress' with Change, and viewing Orlanthi culture as a monolithic culture, which it is not. One only has to compare Esrolia, Sartar, Saird, Charg etc. to see that the template varies far more than may be immediately apparent. It's a bit like saying that European culture didn't change much between 1000 BC and 1000 AD because the same roughly feudal or tribal society was present throughout, with only a few changes in technology and political organization.

3

So, please, where are the technical developments (for example) of the Orlanthi?  I can point to plenty in Europe during 1000BC to 1000AD.  The adoption of stirrups and aqueducts, Hydraulic Mechanization, Steam Power, the separation of wheels from their axles, hermetic seals, tension powered siege engines, crossbows, etc.  Perhaps Orlanthi have adopted the crossbow?  Perhaps the guild system wasn't around in the time of the Vinkotlings?  

Also, I am surprised that you consider Esrolia to be Orlanthi, I certainly don't, it is Earth Pantheon dominated with a veneer of a variety of other pantheons.  This is in keeping with the system of elemental territories that make the Holy Country holy.  

Also, the rise of Imperial Systems, City-State Confederations and Republics in the 1000BC-1000AD period are distinctly different to feudal and tribal societies.  The only Orlanthi republic I can think of is that period in New Pavis between Dorasar and the Lunar Invasion.

As this isn't much different to the Orlanthi before time, and given that time=change by definition ergo you can't step into the same river twice, what has changed other than the history?  The adoption of a few technologies invented elsewhere?  One minor city decided to adopt a republic model of government rather than being a hill clan with a ring?  Not much change, and not much progress, because every time they seriously try something new they get wiped out.  Homeostasis.   

Edited July 7, 2017 by Darius West

[Steve]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Also, I am surprised that you consider Esrolia to be Orlanthi, I certainly don't, it is Earth Pantheon dominated with a veneer of a variety of other pantheons.  This is in keeping with the system of elemental territories that make the Holy Country holy.  

Esrolia is included in the Orlanthi Culture section of the Guide, p.31.

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

So, please, where are the technical developments (for example) of the Orlanthi?  

Curiously, I was referring to societal change. Technical development in Glorantha is subject to very different criteria than Terrestrial; for one, the Mostali limit human technical development as they assume it is stolen from them.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Also, I am surprised that you consider Esrolia to be Orlanthi, I certainly don't, it is Earth Pantheon dominated with a veneer of a variety of other pantheons.  This is in keeping with the system of elemental territories that make the Holy Country holy.  

If you have any familiarity with the history of Glorantha you will find that Esrolia is thoroughly Orlanthi, though for historical reasons the Grandmothers are wary of allowing their goddess' husband or his representatives overlordship, again. Even Argrath will become only Warlord of Kethaela in 1628, not its king or emperor.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Also, the rise of Imperial Systems, City-State Confederations and Republics in the 1000BC-1000AD period are distinctly different to feudal and tribal societies.  The only Orlanthi republic I can think of is that period in New Pavis between Dorasar and the Lunar Invasion.

If you examine the history of terrestrial city-states and republics (e.g. Rome and Athens) you will find that the tribal system was the basis of their political systems. Even the imperial systems (of Alexander and his Successors, Augustus and his successors, Charlemagne etc.) were simply laid over a tribal network.

For the basic template of European cultures between 1000 BC and 1000 AD there's little structural difference between the realm of a Mycenaean wanax, his warrior companions, the nobility, the peasantry and the serfs and slaves, and an Anglo-Saxon cyning, his thanes, carls and serfs and slaves.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

 

As this isn't much different to the Orlanthi before time, and given that time=change by definition ergo you can't step into the same river twice, what has changed other than the history?  The adoption of a few technologies invented elsewhere?  One minor city decided to adopt a republic model of government rather than being a hill clan with a ring?  Not much change, and not much progress, because every time they seriously try something new they get wiped out.  Homeostasis.   

Glorantha isn't a technological setting, given that dwarves have cannon, elves can grow biological weapons, and humans have access to bronze and iron weapons, and all have access to magic. Progress isn't a theme in a setting subject to increasing entropy over time, as the magical potential of the cosmos diminishes with every Age.

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Not much change, and not much progress, because every time they seriously try something new they get wiped out.  Homeostasis.

That's a very good example of what's really going on. Glorantha is very much stability versus chaos. The less progress the more stable. However the orlanthi's change affiliation is at odds with this. This is very evident with the cycles of the coming of the Devil from KoS and what happens at the end of ages. Too much change = instability = chaos gets back into the world. Glorantha is about lack of progress or as @M Helsdon says 

13 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Progress isn't a theme in a setting subject to increasing entropy over time, as the magical potential of the cosmos diminishes with every Age.

The magic goes away.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Steve said:

Esrolia is included in the Orlanthi Culture section of the Guide, p.31.

It's good the see that the reading of the Guide is showing its usefulness already.

[M Helsdon]

32 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The magic goes away.

And as the magic diminishes, the Guide is full of hints of what may replace it: the black rock found in some places greatly desired by dwarves; Oil and natural gas are not valuable to humans in their current stage of development, but may be present in certain areas, unknown to most disinterested surface dwellers. Coal, oil and natural gas are doubtless relics of the Green Age or some other period, and one day, in a future Age, may be exploited by humans.

Larry Niven's series is set in a world with diminishing magic, though in a different way...

Edited July 7, 2017 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

So, please, where are the technical developments (for example) of the Orlanthi?  I can point to plenty in Europe during 1000BC to 1000AD.

What exactly makes you choose the 1000 BCE to 1000 AD period as your baseline comparison?

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

The adoption of stirrups and aqueducts, Hydraulic Mechanization, Steam Power, the separation of wheels from their axles, hermetic seals, tension powered siege engines, crossbows, etc.  Perhaps Orlanthi have adopted the crossbow?  Perhaps the guild system wasn't around in the time of the Vinkotlings?  

I can point to more advances from 1AD to 2001 AD.

A better comparison would be the Central  European Bronze Age from 3500 BCE to 500 BCE. It starts with the sky disk of Nebra and the palisade winter solstice observatory temple nearby, and culminates in the Hallstatt Salt Trade.

The European Bronze Age produced Stonehenge, Newgrange, Knowth and Dowth, the alleys of Carnac, or the intercontinental trade routes from the Cambrian tin and gold mines and the Baltic amber mines with the salt mines of Hallstatt and the Mycenean, Cretan and Fertile Crescent cultures.

The town (or small city) of Biskupin ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskupin ) in Poland shows a pre-migration settlement very similar to an Orlanthi town.

Leaving the Celts or the Mediterranean cultures aside, take a look at the development in eastern central Europe, and compare their technology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

I note that the break between the two cultures coincides with a climatic cataclysm.

Climate change due to major volcanic eruptions is the main cause for regress in the history of the Old World, and especially Europe. Civilization experienced repeated major setbacks when climate refugees upset those regions suffering less, raiding and migrating into better climate.

Quote

Also, I am surprised that you consider Esrolia to be Orlanthi, I certainly don't, it is Earth Pantheon dominated with a veneer of a variety of other pantheons.  This is in keeping with the system of elemental territories that make the Holy Country holy.  

All of the constituent peoples of the Holy Country except for the Ingareens are Theyalans, which is another word for Orlanthi. The Esrolians are a lot more Orlanthi than the Caladralanders, and weren't under any trouble to go on as usual when ruled by Hendriki adventurers in the Adjustment era following the Dragonkill rather than by a grandmothers' council.

Belintar stressed their elemental differences in order to further his magical whole, but the emigrants to Dragon Pass from Esrolia or Heortland became undistinguishable, whether as free clans and tribes in Sartar or enslaved by the Grazeland Pony Riders as Vendref.

If you look at the Foreigner Laws of Aventus (one of the Larnsti kings of Heortland just after the Gbaji Wars), you will find that the Hendriki lorded over a population of Quivini, Esrolian, Pelaskites and Esvulari clans in Heortland. Apart from the Esvulari whose endogamous caste system kept them apart (I guess except for thrall-taking), those groups were more or less integrated into the Heortland that sent the new Quivini settlers into Dragon Pass 800 years later. Likewise, there are numerous groups in Esrolia who are not ruled by grandmothers, like e.g. a qood quarter of the Theyalan population of Nochet (and all of the non-Theyalans).

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The only Orlanthi republic I can think of is that period in New Pavis between Dorasar and the Lunar Invasion.

Your idea of a republic appears rather strange to me if your only example are the odd Romans. Germanic republics like Iceland, Frisia, Ditmarsia are pretty undistinguishable from Scottish clan.

Quote

As this isn't much different to the Orlanthi before time, and given that time=change by definition ergo you can't step into the same river twice, what has changed other than the history?  

A lot. The Vingkotling culture was a lot more magical, demigods were its leaders.

The Heortlings were their descendants, with quite watered down divine blood among their leaders. They saw the Dawn as part of the Theyalan culture. They assimilated influences from all the other cultures around them, including Praxian, troll, dwarf and Malkioni ones. Their magic re-created the magic of the Vingkotlings, but accessed it differently.

The Bright Empire brought civil war to the Orlanthi, with Heortlings and non-Heortlings actively supporting Nysalor and Heortlings and non-Heortlings actively opposing Nysalor. Both sides allied with non-Orlanthi and non-humans. The Nysaloran new magic suppressed the old Orlanthi magic (Lokamayadon), but a new approach to Orlanth's magic re-gained access to the magic. Initiation rites changed, once again.

 

Quote

The adoption of a few technologies invented elsewhere?  One minor city decided to adopt a republic model of government rather than being a hill clan with a ring?  Not much change, and not much progress, because every time they seriously try something new they get wiped out.  Homeostasis.   

The republic of Rome is a farmers republic very much like Iceland or Frisia. Only the wealthy land owners gain anything like participation in the government. The leaders are dual elective kings in all but name and term of office.

The stirrup was adopted within history. The chariot was abandoned as military unit. Magical artillery of various forms has conquered the battlefields, in direct confrontation with the heroes facing entire brigades with just their chosen companions at their side, shrugging off massive magic. Harrek and Jar-eel are the over-the-top variant of this.

 

Access to the great magics becomes more difficult as the ages pass and the cataclysmic conflicts block routes to older techniques.

And yes, there are forces that successfully suppress new knowledge, magic and technology - the Mostali, Zzabur, rabid extremist theist Taliban like Renvald or Alakoring.

Let's leave the Orlanthi for a while and take a look at Illumination in Peloria. The Red Goddess has embraced illumination and imposes its mystical reality with the Glowline, pretty much like the Nysalorean missionaries of the Bright Empire did without atrocious temples (although as atrocious methods on the far borders). Other illuminating movements were and are heavily persecuted, especially when they gain a temporary foothold like e.g. the Spolite Empire or the White Moon Movement.

 

So, homeostasis? No, compensation of decline through active effort.

Look what happened when Prince Saronil used dwarven technology to advance Orlanth temple architecture. Dwarves - probably the very same ones who taught him the technology - had his granddaughter abducted and the Prince (who had already become paranoid when his favorite and first son was betrayed in Nochet) slain on hot pursuit.

Yes, the Mostali have an agenda of stasis. Even regress, to a world of featureless plains and strict separation of features and possibly inhabitants.

The Aldryami reforestation plans are pretty much the same. They do tolerate humans that obey strict limitations, like the inland Umathelans or the Errinoru Fiwan and pygmies, but they aim to an uniformity of forests that will smother any development, too.

 

[soltakss]

 

On 7/7/2017 at 11:53 AM, Darius West said:

So, please, where are the technical developments (for example) of the Orlanthi?  I can point to plenty in Europe during 1000BC to 1000AD.  The adoption of stirrups and aqueducts, Hydraulic Mechanization, Steam Power, the separation of wheels from their axles, hermetic seals, tension powered siege engines, crossbows, etc.  Perhaps Orlanthi have adopted the crossbow?  Perhaps the guild system wasn't around in the time of the Vinkotlings?  

The establishing of cities in Sartar, the move to rule through Orlanth Rex, establishment of Guilds and Mayors, adoption and rejection of draconic ideas. All these were made within 1600 years or so. 

Technology doesn't change so much, but there are probably changes to pottery, clothing and so on,. Weapons don't change much, as you can only do so much with a spear. sword or bow. Mostali are very protective of their technology and send people out to destroy competing technology. So gunpowder won't be developed outside the Mostali, even technology such as Windmills or Watermills are probably destroyed once developed, even though the orlanthi have small windsails they won't become industrial. 

 

On 7/7/2017 at 11:53 AM, Darius West said:

Also, I am surprised that you consider Esrolia to be Orlanthi, I certainly don't, it is Earth Pantheon dominated with a veneer of a variety of other pantheons.  This is in keeping with the system of elemental territories that make the Holy Country holy.  

It is Earth and Orlanthi. Don't forget the Orlanth-Ernalda match is very strong amongst the Orlanthi and the Earth People. Esrolia, despite its name, is dominated by Ernalda and counts Orlanth as the main Husband-Protector, sure there are others, but much of the culture is Orlanthi.

 

On 7/7/2017 at 11:53 AM, Darius West said:

Also, the rise of Imperial Systems, City-State Confederations and Republics in the 1000BC-1000AD period are distinctly different to feudal and tribal societies.  The only Orlanthi republic I can think of is that period in New Pavis between Dorasar and the Lunar Invasion.

Orlanthi towns are ruled by a Mayor, Orlanthi clans are ruled by a chieftain who is normally elected, Orlanthi tribes are usually ruled by a king, as are the Orlanthi kingdoms. So, there is a mixture at various levels.

On 7/7/2017 at 11:53 AM, Darius West said:

As this isn't much different to the Orlanthi before time, and given that time=change by definition ergo you can't step into the same river twice, what has changed other than the history?  The adoption of a few technologies invented elsewhere?  One minor city decided to adopt a republic model of government rather than being a hill clan with a ring?  Not much change, and not much progress, because every time they seriously try something new they get wiped out.  Homeostasis.   

It does appear that major change causes a major reaction and eveyone goes back to how they did things before, with a few changes. 

I think that any culture in Glorantha that makes major technological/social change but which doesn't change the way they worship is probably OK. It's when they change how they worship, which gods they follow, how they interact with the mythical world, then bad things happen.

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by soltakss

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

It is Earth and Orlanthi. Don't forget the Orlanth-Ernalda match is very strong amongst the Orlanthi and the Earth People. Esrolia, despite its name, is dominated by Ernalda and counts Orlanth as the main Husband-Protector, sure there are others, but much of the culture is Orlanthi.

This was where Kodig, son of Vingkot and the Summer Wife was born, and where Kodig, heir of Vingkot was laid to rest.  Though the Esrolian Grandmothers try to suppress the Vingkotlings, they keep reappearing:  Harmast, the EWF, the Adjustment Wars, now Broyan.

[Darius West]

On 6/27/2017 at 8:47 AM, Jon Hunter said:

Are these serious questions or an exercise in pedantry?
 

Most religions thrive on pedantry IRL.  Entire sects are formed on the basis of nothing else.  This is not even an exaggeration.  When you look at how most countries look at legally establishing a new tax exemption status, to separate themselves from their parent faith, they first have to find one or more areas of doctrinal separation.  Also consider the murderous debate about whether Christ and God the Father are of the same substance, similar substance, different substance etc. in the early Church.  And if you think this is only a Christian problem, I have news for you...

Edited April 21, 2021 by Darius West